Better Sign Shop Podcast

Bryant Gillespie: Learn how to build
a better sign and print shop from a

few crusty sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

workflow, growth, and more.

Your listening to The Better Sign Shop
podcast with your hosts, Peter COIs,

Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.

Before we jump into the episode,
I'd like to give a shout out to

our sponsor, GCI Digital Imaging
Grand Format Printer to the Trade.

We talk a lot about outsourcing on
the podcast and the importance of.

Good partners and GCI Digital Imaging
is a good partner to have owner TJ

Bak and his team focus on providing
killer customer service just the

way grandmother used to make it.

If you're interested in learning
their approach to business, hop

back into the archives to episode
nine where the guys and I interview

TJ about customer experience.

So if you're looking for a high quality
trade printer for banners, wraps,

and other printed graphics that your
customers throw at you, check out

GCI Digital [email protected].

All right guys.

Welcome to the next edition of
the Better Sign Shop podcast.

As always, I am your host, co-host,
Bryant Gillespie, and I've got,

uh, some colleagues of mine,
well, just one colleague today,

Mike, the Sign Design Samurai.

Riley, are we, are we going
with Sign Design Samurai?

What are we?

Hey, nobody sent me any nicknames
between the two, so now I'm kind

of pissed, but just grasping

Michael Riley: up straws at this point.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, yeah.

Why is no one sent us any
more nicknames for you?

Maybe we just call you, I'm gonna
call you like the mike, the sign

industry Mercedes-Benz or something,
since that's been on my mind.

I don't, I don't know.

I was just trying to figure out
how to tie it back to a car, but

Michael Riley: whatever.

Let me think about that one.

See if I come up with
a good analogy there.

Yeah.

Well,

Bryant Gillespie: welcome Mike.

Welcome to this episode.

We are, I, I don't know, this
is like the 15th episode.

Let's, let's do like a, a quick
little, like, recap how, you know,

how are you, how are you feeling
about everything that we've done?

So,

Michael Riley: You know,
I'm actually amazed.

I don't, this sounds terrible
to say, but I'm kind of amazed

we made it to 15 episodes.

I mean, I, it's, I don't know
about you, but I sometimes tend

to not stick to things very well.

So I'm, I'm, I'm proud of this
that we've, we've made it this far.

I mean, I think it's pretty cool.

Bryant Gillespie: Let's, let's
preface that with Yeah, yeah.

I'm enjoying the following.

I'm enjoying the podcast.

Let's preface that and say that we, while
we've stuck to the podcast, we have not

stuck to the schedule that we set first.

No,

Michael Riley: no.

Uhuh, that's been, that's been

Bryant Gillespie: nothing.

Not

Michael Riley: in the slightest.

No.

But hey, you know, small victories though.

We, we made it to 15.

We have a, we have a, an official
real sponsor and, you know, it's, it's

so weird to see, you know, scrolling
through Facebook and see like random

people on one of the sign industry,
you know, Facebook groups like.

Hey, check out this podcast.

We found like, this is great.

Like, it's, it's really weird to see that.

Like I know it's not, it's not like we're,
you know, major celebrities or anything,

but it is, it is weird to, to think that
there are people out there that actually

like, listen to this and, and maybe
even want to hear what we have to say.

It's, it's a, it's a strange thing.

It's new to me, so I guess
it's, it's pretty cool.

Bryant Gillespie: You're not sure what
to do, what to do with all your fans that

are like stalking you out in Portland?

Yeah,

Michael Riley: it's just a crowd of people
gathered in front of my house waiting

for me to come outside to get the mail.

Yeah, no, it's, it's pretty cool.

I, I'm pretty proud of us.

I think that it's, it's pretty neat.

I, I've enjoyed a lot of the conversations
that we've had and I think that it's

just gonna get better over time as
we can continue to grow, have more

listeners and more people that want to
be, you know, guests and talk to us.

And it's been pretty neat,
neat thing to be a part of.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

That's a great way to sum it up.

You know, I, I don't think he, and I'll
speak for Peter here just because he's,

he's not here, but I don't, I don't
think any of us thought that, uh, we

would get the response that we have.

So if you're listening to this, know,
first and foremost, we appreciate you.

We plan to continue doing this.

We enjoy it.

We need more nicknames.

Number one, also spread the word.

Hey, we do, we do need more nicknames.

Spread the word.

We also like to interview
guests from time to time.

Uh, those are enjoyable conversations.

So, Spread the word, keep
listening, send us nicknames.

Not specifically in

Michael Riley: that order, but yeah,
and if anybody has any, you know, topics

or things that you'd like to hear us
talk about or discuss, uh, let us know

too, cuz some, sometimes we struggle
to come up with things to talk about.

I mean, the site industry's a, it's
a lot of topics, but at the same

time, there's not very many topics
in this industry after a while.

So we're always looking for new
subject matter to, to beat on.

If anybody has any ideas, roll ears.

Bryant Gillespie: I, I think we're
scared to do the customer horror story

episode at this point, but maybe,
maybe around Halloween next year

Michael Riley: that'll be, yeah, they'd
make it really great Halloween episode.

Get some spooky music playing
in the background and.

The, yeah, a hundred

Bryant Gillespie: percent.

That's a great idea.

All right, so the topic today,
we'll, we'll just jump into it.

The art department,
streamlining the art department.

How can we improve efficiency?

I feel like efficiency and design is, are
not two words that go together, but how

can we streamline the art side of this?

Uh, as we've talked about in like
past episodes here recently, design is

one of the most important pieces of,
uh, running a successful sign shop.

Uh, unless you just don't do that,
you outsource it to like a, a sign

designer, like a freelance one per se.

But I digress.

Um, very big piece of the puzzle.

Uh, how can we make that better?

Mike, if you're a designer, I'm
sure you got some thoughts here.

Um, I'm xDesign at this point.

I don't, I don't even touch, I don't even
open the illustrator on a weekly basis

Michael Riley: anymore, so I'm so
envious sometimes of you, you, you

escape that, that black hole that just
sucks you in and doesn't let you out.

Yeah.

You know, I think the, the number one
thing to improve efficiency in your design

department above all else is just get
better at communication and get better at,

you know, Creating that design brief to
tell your designer what you need, whether

that's an in-house designer or you know,
a third party freelancer that you use.

Um, or hell, even if it's you, if
you're your own designer, learn to,

you know, talk to yourself really.

Yeah.

Right.

No, seriously.

I mean, there's, there's,
there's merit to that actually.

Like, you know, some people just
like, I'm gonna design a sign

without putting any thought into it.

And then four hours later
they're still struggl.

You know, designers aren't
mind readers, and I think a lot

of people think that we are.

And you can't just tell us, Hey, design
a sign that goes on this building and

expect the outcome that we create to
be what you envision in your head.

Every, you know, design is very,
very subjective and, and every

designer is going to approach
something a little bit differently.

So, You know, clearly conveying to the
designer what the parameters of the

project are, what the client needs are,
what, what problems this design is trying

to solve, I think are really important.

Uh, I think that last point is
probably the most important, and it's

probably the least understood, but,
but really, really drilling down.

And we talked about this with Dan
Antonelli a little bit as well, that you

know, And, and I say this all the time
to, you know, I probably sound like I'm

beating a dead horse at this point, but
we're, we're in the marketing industry.

We're in the advertising industry,
and even though we're designing,

you know, what could sometimes be a
fairly utilitarian thing, like a, a

channel letter sign, it's still that
business's primary means of advertising.

And so thinking about it from that
perspective, and, and this is an

advertising tool, how is this going
to help this business is important.

And, you know, if there's a, if
there's a sales rep or project manager

between the designer and the client,
that sales rep becomes the funnel for

all the information to the designer.

So really, really getting that
communication dialed in between the

designer and the, you know, the project
leader is, is the single most important

thing I think you can do to make your
design department more efficient.

And then some, I mean, and I
think that's where a lot of

places really drop the ball too.

I mean, as a freelance designer,
I work for a lot of sign companies

around the country and still on a
fairly regular basis, like I'll get a.

You know, a screenshot of like
a, you know, at a three quarter

angle of a building around it from
Google Street View and, and just

like, I need a sign on this wall.

Bryant Gillespie: Uh, make it happen.

Okay.

Make it fun.

Yeah,

Michael Riley: I mean, I can, I
can definitely put a sign on that

wall, but, uh, more information
would probably be helpful so that

that sign does what it's intended to
do and doesn't waste your clients.

That's money.

Yeah.

I mean that's, that's a big

Bryant Gillespie: thing for me.

I, I think that's, yeah, I
think that's great advice.

We're really curious to hear what our
guest has to say on the matter today.

Uh, we've got Brian Seder from
Artwork IQ and, uh, the new project

they're working on Task Os, which
is, uh, like design automation.

I'm sure he'll tell us more about it.

Brian has built a large artwork provider.

Um, so they provide artwork services at
artwork iq, like, uh, redrawing setup,

artwork, automation, vectorization
conversion, kind of all those things.

So they are.

Focus on like the production art.

So, and, and I'm curious to hear like
how they have streamlined that process

and, and kind of what goes into that.

You know, there's like the Yeah.

I'm really the creative side of
design and then you have like

the production aspect as well.

So I, I think this will
be a good conversation.

With, with you the super creative, and
I, I would say you're, you're pretty

efficient at this point as well, but
I, I wonder if there's some more tips

Michael Riley: we can get out of it.

Yeah, I'm really excited for this one.

I mean, design is a weird animal because
it does require you to be efficient and

come up with ways to do things faster
and quicker and, and, and, and easier.

But at the same time, because it is
wholly creative as well, you can't

really force that or rush that.

So you k you're kind of weird and there's
this weird, like middle ground between

like, I've gotta be as efficient as I
can to get this done fairly quickly.

But also I, I also need to take my
time so that the design looks good.

So I'm really excited to see
how this guy's kind of like

married those two together.

And especially like you said on
the production, uh, end of things.

I mean, you're, you really can't automate
just, you know, creativity, right?

Like that's creativity.

That's not something that will,
yeah, yeah, you can't do that.

But there's so many like
ancillary components to design.

Suck up a lot of time.

Um, and that's really where
the efficiency comes into play.

Like, like recreating a logo, like,
I mean, on a daily basis I get low

quality, you know, screenshots and,
and, and JPEGs of somebody's logo.

And I've gotta figure out a
inefficient way to recreate those.

And if I've got three or four of those
to do in a day, even if they only

take 30 minutes, 45 minutes a piece
to, to run through illustrator and

redraw, that's still a couple hours,
three hours a day where I'm not being

creative, I'm just trying to get
something done so that I can be creative.

So automating that, right, coming up with
a process for it, I think is really cool.

So I'm excited to see
what this guy's up to.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, let's, let's
bring him on without further ado.

All right guys.

So we are back with Brian Seder, our
guest for today to talk about streamlining

the art and design department.

Brian has like three different companies
and I would not introduce you in the

proper way, Brian, so why don't you give
us like the, the 5 cent introduction.

Brian Saetre: All right, thanks Brian.

So I guess I can start.

I, this could be a
history lesson actually.

Uh, this story sort of starts
after World War II in, uh, 1947.

My grandfather got back from,
I like where this is going.

Yeah.

My grandfather got back from the war,
and my understanding is that at the time,

because of the war and also just because
of technology advances, uh, there were

a lot of new innovations in plastics.

So, uh, my grandfather saw an opportunity
there and started a screen printing

company for printing plastics, which led
to my dad, uh, and my, both of my uncles

getting into the printing world as well.

Uh, and then that led to me growing up
with it, like basically being surrounded

by a bunch of, uh, bunch of printers.

Back then they were doing a
lot of la large format stuff.

So my dad tells kind of funny story
about how my grandfather, who was

pretty short, would only hire people
who are like 6 4, 6 5, because they

need to have arms long enough to like
move the squeegee across the huge,

um, huge pieces they were printing.

So that's funny.

Yeah, so

Bryant Gillespie: I'm sorry.

I definitely fall into the, the
short category, so I wouldn't

have made, it wouldn't have made

Brian Saetre: the cut?

No.

Not as a, not as a screen printer,
but, uh, yeah, so I guess my dad has

like, memories of these giants that
would just like, kind of throw 'em

up in the air and like play catch
with him in the screen printing shop.

So,

Bryant Gillespie: uh, that

Brian Saetre: sounds awesome.

Yeah, so I definitely grew up
with that in my family's culture.

Uh, so yeah, both uncles worked there
and actually my dad and, uh, my uncle Ray

ended up buying it from, from their dad.

So they owned it and about 1996, they
sold it to a manufacturing company that

they're working really closely with.

And my dad didn't love being an
employee, which I totally understand.

I've never been one myself and
asked me if you, if we wanted

to go in the business together.

So this was like when I was in, I think
I was in eighth grade, I was like 14, 15.

Was I in seventh grade?

Yeah, something like that.

This was like right at the beginning
of when people were using the

internet for business and it
wasn't just like academics and.

I mean, there were websites
obviously, but we had one of the

first websites, uh, I put one of the
first websites online for ordering

bumper stickers and decals and stuff.

We got listed at the top of the search
engines at the time, which I'm, I'm

dating myself a little, but it was

Bryant Gillespie: Lyco and likely we

Brian Saetre: were way up there on Lycos.

We dominated Excite, oh, was it called
HotBot or one of the other ones.

And Infoseek.

Infoseek was like the one
I really kind of nailed.

I got, I remember the phone.

Um, so we had like more work
than we could possibly like even

quote, which was pretty cool.

Uh, pretty cool way to
get a company started.

So this was infographics.

The last company that my grandfather
started with, screen Print Products

Corporation, and I don't think it goes
under that name anymore, but, so yeah,

we started infographics pretty soon.

Let's see, like some major stuff we did.

We did a, a big project for
the Menards racing team really

early on, which was kind of fun.

And then for, uh, for nato.

So we printed, oh, how many, oh.

How many hundreds of thousands it was.

It was so many little pink badges
that when all the NATO soldiers

badges, like these little stickers
that went on their badges.

That's cool.

Um, so just reminiscing a little here.

Maybe I'm getting into too much
detail, but, um No, no, no, that's

Bryant Gillespie: fine.

Yeah, we tend to, we, we, we
are not afraid to ramble here.

So I noticed, I

Brian Saetre: noticed your podcast
tend to be on the long side actually.

I was like, I'm kind of good at rambling,
but am I gonna be able to ramble

for an hour and 15 minutes or more?

It goes quick.

I think I'm probably up for it actually.

So, uh, kind of digitize the place.

Uh, built a database that they're still
using today, which is crazy scary, but it

got pretty into programming, uh, coding.

And then when I went to college, I started
what would become artwork at Q, which

is one of the companies that I'm like
actively participating in right now.

And what we do is we work with lots
and lots of different industries, but a

big part of that is the sign industry.

Uh, and we take any images they get
from their customers that aren't

usable and we do whatever needs
to be done to make them usable.

More and more, we're doing like, data
driven stuff with like mapping and Power

BI and Tableau and different programs
like that, which probably isn't relevant

to this, but, um, yeah, we kind of got
our start and we still do a lot of, a

lot of work for sign makers and graves,
that sort of, that sort of industry.

Yeah, that's so always a

Bryant Gillespie: problem.

Was always our biggest headache at Yeah.

Uh, our shop.

Was it like getting proper files
or, you know, like if we've gotta

create something, so mm-hmm.

Totally understand you there.

Mike was just saying before you came on
that like, his creative time is reduced

every single day because of like crappy
files that he's gotta recreate or, or

Brian Saetre: something like that.

Right.

So our, our idea is, you know,
you have, you tell us what, what

you're using to make this thing.

If you want to go into enough
detail, you can like tell us

exactly what like pressure you're
gonna use and all the tolerances.

And we'll make sure that like every
image comes through just the way you

need it for that particular process.

So it's kind of like a black box you throw
garbage art into and get good art out.

That's the kind of one
way of thinking about it.

Um, but on the inside
of that, that's nice.

Uh, like it built, I had to build,
um, an e r p, like an enterprise.

What does that even stand for?

Enterprise resource.

Michael Riley: Enterprise
research Planning.

Brian Saetre: There you go.

Yeah.

Sorry for pointing at you.

Like that isn't kinda weird.

Uh, yeah, we That's alright.

Yeah.

I built one of those, I guess that's
the best way to describe it anyway.

Uh, to handle all the orders, take all
the payments, keep track of all the

orders, built an API so bigger customers
of ours can, can integrate with it.

And also on the artwork side,
having thousands of customers,

you really need to be organized.

So lots of standard operating
procedures and lots of scripts.

And what we found in time is that
that became pretty difficult to

manage because the standard operating
procedures were in one place and our e

r p and the scripts and the automations.

Were sometimes you would
just manually run the script.

You'd go into Adobe Illustrator
or Photoshop and file select

script and then run it.

For some companies we would like
build it into a little plugin where

like there was a whole bunch of,
whole bunch of steps for each one.

But the fact that this, the scripting,
the automation and the the SOPs were

separate, I think was kind of a problem.

So that's what gave me the idea for
Task Os, which is kind of my current

passion and my baby, where we, uh, so the
software, you create your, uh, SOPs in

the software, and then instead of having
people manually go through and follow

those, all of the steps, which you can
do, is you can automate certain steps.

So this integrates with, uh, currently
integrates with the Adobe Suite, and

we're also making integrations with
artificial intelligence software

like Open ai, Dali Chat, G P T.

Um, and, and other systems there.

So, uh, it's kind of this what what
about Corll Mike is, uh, thinking

about it, thinking about it.

Uh, a lot of our customers do use Corll
draw, especially the, uh, it's quite

common at the screen printing customers
and pretty common at sign makers too.

So it's, uh, like

Bryant Gillespie: a whole different
tool set on the back end though, right.

For it is like

Brian Saetre: making it work.

It is very d.

There are ways of scripting
things in there, but I haven't

actually done it yet, honestly.

But it is definitely pretty high on
our list of, of apps to integrate

because it is, it is used in the, in
the graphics industry and that's sort

of where we're starting out with our,
uh, offering our automations cuz it's

what we're most familiar and can kind
of offer the most value, I think.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

It was like, it was interesting
how we ran across each other.

Like, I think it was James
Sours that introduced us.

It was, I, I had done
some work with James.

He was like, Hey, you
gotta check out this guy.

I know you're in the sign and print space.

Like, he's doing some really
cool automation stuff.

I know that's up your alley.

And I, I took a look and I, I
was like, this is really smart.

Just like bringing.

Both pieces together.

Mm-hmm.

And, and like we, we've talked about this
before and it's like some of the things

that we're doing at Better Sign Shop
is like, let's bring all these pieces

together, like you've got, instead of
having the SOPs over here and then like

the, the business in like the scripts,
like you mentioned, or like, I, I don't

want to have a, a dock up with the s o
p and then try to follow it over here.

I just want it to be in context.

Mm-hmm.

So, to me, that makes a lot of sense.

Brian Saetre: And a nice side
effect is if you're using like,

template-based workflows, it'll
pull up your templates automatically

and it'll even switch apps for you.

So if you have a step that's happening
in a different app, it'll pull the

app up for you when you need it.

So you don't even have
to think about that.

Like thinking about opening
it and going to where it is.

I know it sounds like a small
thing, but as like a matter of

workflow, it's, it's amazing.

I really like it.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Mike, what's
your initial impression?

What's your initial take here?

Michael Riley: I mean, I'm just a lowly
designer, so a lot of what you guys are

talking about is a bit above my pay grade.

Um, this, this is nothing lowly

Brian Saetre: about design.

I I'm not a designer, so I
really appreciate what you do.

It's like magic.

Michael Riley: It, it actually,
it mostly is magic in witchcraft.

There's, there's, that's about the
truest statement you'll ever hear

about design is, it is mostly magic.

No, it, it is really, it's really
fascinating, uh, how you're, you

are trying to tile that together.

It's really cool.

I, um, I, I will be waiting, uh, for
a Corel draw integration for sure.

You're a Corr draw user.

Okay.

Yeah.

Sort of.

Unfortunately, you
know, I was a, an Adobe.

Fanboy for most of my career.

But the reality is Corra is just,
Hey, Mike's significantly better.

I keep trailing

Bryant Gillespie: off the mic.

Oh, sorry.

We're gotta get you a different mic, dude.

I know.

It's, I'm sorry to make
you deep through it.

I

Michael Riley: really am.

I know.

It's like I'm, I'm trying not
to, but it's just, it's awkward

and, and it's not a natural.

Do you want me to go
back and say that again?

No, no, that's

Brian Saetre: okay.

Okay.

I think, I think I followed, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Careful, careful.

Listening is required,
but I think I got it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The

Michael Riley: gains up all the way too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I was a, an adobe, you know, power
user for years and years, but, but the

reality is, especially when you enter
into the, the, like the larger electrical

sign arena, which is where most of my
work is Corral draw, just objectively

beats the pants off of Illustrator.

It's a, it's a terrible clunky,
like, Almost amateur hour

program in a lot of regards.

And it does, it's got a learning
curve to it, but, um, when you

understand it, it's actually, it,
it, it's significantly better than

Illustrator at a lot of things.

And, and so it's, it's a very
commonly used program on, on the

science side of the industry.

Yeah, I've certainly seen

Brian Saetre: it used a lot, but I, I
guess I know a little bit less about,

about why, why for electrical science.

Is that something that's, um, appealing?

Michael Riley: It's almost more, it's
like rolling a cad design software like

AutoCAD or something into Illustrator.

It does a lot better with, you
know, multi-page documents than

Illustrator and templating pages.

Um, it has built in native scaling and
dimensioning tools, which Illustrator

does not to achieve what you do,
what you can do natively and corral.

You've gotta use Illustrator, you have
to use Photoshop, InDesign, and also a

third party plugin called CAD Tools, which
is horrifically inefficient if you have

to start using all those side by side.

You know what I mean?

And the big, the big piece of the
puzzle there is CAD tools, which is

the plugin which gives you scaling
and dimensioning and illustrator.

And it's, I'm hesitant to
like shit all over a piece of

software, but it deserves it.

It's, it's truly awful.

It works half the time.

It doesn't work half the time.

It crashes constantly.

It's a, you know, they try their best,
but it's just, It's not that good and

it's, it's really inefficient to use.

Um, which is the big reason why a lot
of shops have moved over to Corral

Draw from Illustrator because the
workflow and Illustrator to create the,

a kind of technical drawing is mm-hmm.

It's inefficient compared to Illustrator.

And there's a lot of guys out there
that will like hardcore disagree with

me on that and say, oh, there's no,
there's no reason for Corral draw.

You can do it all in
Illustrator is fine, but when.

Burning through a lot of work, a
high volume of work every second,

you can save counts and Absolutely.

Uh, back to the whole efficiency,
you know, automation conversation.

Yeah.

It makes a big difference.

And corral draw is just,
you know, it's, it's better.

It just, it just is.

And a lot of people aren't willing
to give corr, draw a fair try,

and they will argue with you to
your blue in the face that you're

Brian Saetre: wrong.

But yeah.

Um, I, I probably know, I'm not sure
if I know anything better than I know

Adobe Illustrator, like inside and
out, like creating automations for

it, like dealing with the objects
that it creates in code, all that.

But I, I just know too many very,
uh, fervent cor draw supporters

to write it off completely.

And I do use corral draw every single day.

But not like you do.

So for me it's clunkiness.

It's just a little more annoying.

Yeah.

Um,

Michael Riley: the clunkiness
will never go away either.

Like it's annoying to me.

Make

Brian Saetre: it clun, don't they?

I I seem to remember older
versions being less clunky.

Yeah.

Every

Michael Riley: version's
clun than the last.

Mm-hmm.

I think it's not a great piece of
software, but what it does, it's

tool set is what's really good in it.

And I mean, if, honestly, if Illustrator
had native scaling and native dimensioning

tools built into it, and, and managed
multiple page documents better, I

would abandon Carr draw on a heartbeat.

And a lot of people would, but.

It's never gonna happen.

I mean, illustrators focuses the creative
side, the drawing side of things.

Right.

And it's where

Brian Saetre: Carll draw
focus, simple dimensioning

plugin actually, cuz it's Yeah.

Lacks what I needed.

Michael Riley: If you came out with like
a full suite of tools for Illustrator

that had scaling and dimensioning
and, and like real CAD level mm-hmm.

You know, tools, even on a basic
level like hat tools, plugin gets

into some pretty in-depth crap.

But I mean, if it was just like a fairly
basic plugin, but did, did scaling and

dimensioning really well, you would, it
would, you would sell, you would switch.

You would switch.

I would, yeah.

I, I actually would, I totally would.

Um, I

Bryant Gillespie: That's a challenge.

Too many, yeah.

Too many

Brian Saetre: business
ideas in the head right now.

I, yeah.

Yeah.

I'll, I'll insert that one in there
for you, but, uh, I don't know

if it's gonna make it to the top.

It's just what you wanna mess with.

Right.

Also, I, I do have experience
with cad, but it's like, I might

not be the man for the job.

I might not be the man for the job.

It's mostly Gotcha.

Yeah.

Converting stuff.

Two CAD formats and testing them, but
not a lot of creating stuff in cad.

I mean, back in high school
I took a CAD class, but that

doesn't exactly make me an expert.

Bryant Gillespie: That's actually,
that's how I got into the industry.

But I, I think like the first que Yeah.

Yeah.

I was in a CAD class and like
the, the teacher in the CAD class

had a large format printer and
I had just done like the graphic

design class the last semester.

We made it through the CAD book and
he was like, oh, like, hey, let's

go cut some vinyl and print some
stuff on this large format printer.

Uh, so I actually did more graphic
design in the CAD class than I did

in the graphic design class, but I
haven't been able to shake it since.

So, interesting fact.

But I, I think like the, the first
question I've got for you Brian, is.

How did you transition from like,
hey, we're, we're doing a print shop

or a print business, so, you know,
signs and graphics and stuff like

that into like, the artwork IQ side?

Well,

Brian Saetre: I went to college,
uh, pretty far away, so I couldn't

bring the printers with me.

So all I really had was my, uh, my
graphics ability and my marketing ability.

So, since I mostly did the
graphics at ipro mm-hmm.

Anyway, like that was my biggest
thing that in the marketing, uh, it

wasn't really much of a transition.

I just sort of learned it as I
went and really, really pretty

natural, uh, switch when I went
to college and started Artwork iq.

Um, gotcha.

It's, is that, is that Yeah.

What you're looking for?

Bryant Gillespie: Ok.

Yeah, definitely.

So you're just like started
slinging artwork in like

the dorm room or something?

Brian Saetre: Uh, yeah, it was a couple
years after I started, but, um, okay.

Yeah.

I think I just set up a website,
uh, some Google AdWord and

printers started showing up.

We were frustrated with just a.

It's really unfortunate our work
they've received from customers.

What

Bryant Gillespie: I, I don't know, I hate
to date you and us as well, but like,

what's the, like the timeframe on this?

Like, like year wise?

Brian Saetre: I started this
in 2003 or four, I think four.

2000,

Bryant Gillespie: 2000.

Three or four.

Okay.

I was just trying to think of like what,
like the internet situation looked like.

Um, oh yeah, like transferring files
back and forth, all that, all that

Brian Saetre: stuff.

I remember like going between classes
and, and looking at my flip phone

and trying to use the internet on
this flip phone, which was like a

pretty advanced feature at the time.

Yeah.

Um, and also back then, no one,
no one not, not no one, but most

people had no idea what, like, even
Photoshop was, uh, people, they

didn't know how to use illustrators.

So like, everything was like
a logo made in Microsoft paint

by, you know, somebody's.

Brother or cousin or something.

So there were just so many, so many
bad pieces of art out there that were

totally useless for just about anything.

Right.

So there was, there was a lot of that
kind of work out there and I think

these days most professional designers
hopefully are making vector files, but

you still find, he's find ones who don't.

Bryant Gillespie: Mike can
speak of that, I'm sure.

Yeah.

He's got that nervous grin on his face.

Brian Saetre: Oh, uh oh.

Did I just call you out?

Oh no, I

Michael Riley: don't.

I'm calling out as clients.

I'm all for punching designers
in the throat that do that.

But no, I get, I get logos
designed and Photoshop fairly

regularly from like big agencies.

I don't boggles my mind,
but you know, you gotta

Brian Saetre: roll with it.

Yeah.

So

Bryant Gillespie: how long, oh,

Brian Saetre: go ahead.

I just, I find I'm seeing that less
and less these days, but that might

also be the fact that, you know,
we have a lot more competitors.

I think when we started we have like three
competitors anybody heard of, and now

there's, I mean, there must be hundreds.

Like maybe a

Bryant Gillespie: thousand.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I still get, so I, I haven't been in
a, worked in a sign and print shop

in seven or eight years and I still
get like, digitizing requests from

like, folks international, like,
Hey, we could digitize your stuff.

And I'm like, I don't even, I
don't even do embroidery anymore.

Like I don't do it, you know, but
hey, like how soon or how long did

it take before you were overwhelmed
and you're like, okay, like I've

gotta, like, how, how does the scale?

Brian Saetre: So I got pretty fast at
this work, so I'm trying to remember,

I think I hired my first, hired my
first employee maybe two years later.

Uh, that didn't work out super well.

Tried again.

That

Bryant Gillespie: didn't work out.

Super.

It turns out I was pretty bad at

Brian Saetre: hiring, but
the one after that, this is a

Bryant Gillespie: sign
guy, Mike, like he, he,

Brian Saetre: is this a common story and

Michael Riley: Yeah.

You, you're a, you're a sign
maker through and through.

You just don't know it yet.

Brian Saetre: Just, yeah.

I just need to start making more signs.

But I, the next, the next employee
I hired, he's still with me.

So he is, been with the company
for 14, 15 years or something.

Um, how many

Michael Riley: employees
total do you have now?

Brian Saetre: So I have four.

Okay.

Now, we had a few more in the past,
but the pandemic was a little hard

on our business, but that was, yeah.

So things are, things are kind
of getting back up to speed

now, so they're all much more so

Bryant Gillespie: like how many pieces
of, how many pieces of like art do you

guys like process on a, like a single day?

Um, trying to get like an idea of like the
scale, like I, I imagine it's quite a bit.

Brian Saetre: So at
our peak we were doing.

Something like 80 a day, I would say.

Wow.

Uh, these days it's, it's
much more complex stuff.

Like one of our big projects we're working
on now is digitizing all of the, the

blueprints into data that can be used in,
uh, Microsoft business analytics software.

So each of those projects takes
like hours and we have like, how

many do we have in the queue?

I dunno.

Maybe 250 more facilities
to do or something.

So on a daily basis, we might only do like
30, maybe on a good day, 40 projects now.

But they tend to be much more complicated.

Like some of them are
used for manufacturing.

So we work with, uh, one of the major,
uh, sports equipment makers in the

country and they'll customize them.

So if you ever go find yourself lucky
enough to be in like a major nfl,

um, teams, gyms, or, uh, like a major
colleges, gyms, probably we had a hand in.

Helping them decorate the, uh, the
weights and cut the logos and need

equipment and stuff like that.

That's cool.

That's really cool.

So some of that is kind of for, you
know, uh, it is overlaps with the

signage stuff cause there's like
metal fabrication involved, which is

sometimes the signage thing as well.

Yeah, definitely.

Bryant Gillespie: Mike, you got
any questions at this point?

Michael Riley: I'm trying
to think of questions.

Yeah, I'm trying to think of how this
ties into automation and how, but like

I said, it's not really my area of
expertise, so I'm not sure what questions.

Bryant Gillespie: Well, so, hey, like,
here's what I think is interesting of

like the, and I, and I want to hear
like Brian, like, okay, like what are

your tips for like automating this?

But like the thing that we were talking
about before you jumped on is this

intersection of like, like producing
signs and graphics at the end of the day.

It's an exercise in like
constrained creativity almost.

Like, yes, we wanna be creative and, and
produce awesome stuff, but there's like

a, a fixed number, uh, a fixed limit of
time that we can spend on any one project.

Mm-hmm.

So like, how, how does
creativity and efficiency, like,

how do those come together?

Because I, for the life of me when I
was a designer and I'm like a recovering

designer is what I like to call myself.

Yeah.

Like, I was never, I could never be
like super creative and super efficient.

It was like, it was usually
like one or the other like,

Hey, you need a logo today?

I can, I could slap you together
something that's gonna look okay.

It'll be professional looking, but
it's not gonna be like great at all.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

That's a, that's a good question because,
you know, there's that, that old kind

of saying in the sign industry, you, you
have, you have a, you can have a good

fast or cheap, but you can only pick two.

Mm-hmm.

You know, so I want to.

I want it fast and cheap,
but it won't be good.

Or I want it good and fast,
but it won't be cheap.

That is kind of, it's a constant struggle
that we, we face as designers is, is how

do we, how do we bridge that and, and
provide the client with, with good, fast

and cheap, cheap is the terrible word.

I guess.

Cost efficient, I guess I should say.

Brian Saetre: Well, I, we have the same
saying in the, uh, the coding industry.

Software development exactly the same.

Yeah.

Uh, concept supply there.

So with logo, so with, with design, like
where it's mostly you being creative

and thinking and playing around the,
the efficiency really comes from, mostly

comes from like the export process.

So if you need the logo and a whole bunch
of different formats with or without

backgrounds, uh, after you make a tweak,
if you want everything to be edited,

like all the different versions you've
created, like maybe the black and white

version or the bug or whatever to be
edited, to go along with the main logo,

you can automate that sort of stuff.

So I find that like adding structure
to the creative process can be

handy, but I'm not a creative
myself, so I'm mostly working with

other creatives doing this work.

And um, and

Bryant Gillespie: I think that's why
this is very interesting to me is like,

like you have built a set of tools
and a company around enabling other

like designers to be more efficient.

Mm-hmm.

So like you, you, you, uh, you've
got like the mike is the designer.

You've got, you're the guy
who's supporting the designers.

So it's like two different takes
on the, on the similar topic.

I think that's, that's, that
would be interesting for me to, to

hear you both kind of expand on.

Brian Saetre: So when you're designing
for signage or designing for print, a

lot of times the design part itself is,
it's, it, it does tend to be a little,

a little harder to automate because,
um, you're not following the same

steps every time for occurring process.

But the, um, the finishing and the,
the starting points are much easier

to automate because, you know, you
automatically pull from a template, you

pull in your customer's information.

Uh, for example, we, uh, work with a
clothing company that's using, uh, task

OS right now to pull templates and then
create variations for like, I think

more than 200 NCAA teams, uh, based
on data they have stored in a, like a

database spreadsheet app called Airtable.

So familiar with the design happens,
design of the templates happens upfront.

Uh, and then it's, it's set up in tune,
so it can be used with the software

and then the automations happen.

And then at the end of the process
of creating all the different, uh,

variations, the, the automations then
help with things like putting the images

on t-shirts and uh, getting it ready
for showing to a licensing department.

And then, Also actually submitting
it to the licensing department and

keeping track of whether they say yes
or no and, uh, uploading images, uh,

for a website for like to Shopify or
some other other system like that.

Uh, so that's kind of where the, that's
kind of where the automation tends

to come in, although that's changing
a little bit now that we're able to

integrate with, uh, software like Dolly.

Um, if you're familiar with open AI's,
uh, image generation software, um, yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: I've been also
looking at, uh, mid Journey is

the other one that I've looked at.

I spit out a couple
renders for Mike from it.

Mid, mid

Brian Saetre: journey is amazing.

It creates really,
really beautiful artwork.

Yeah.

Um, like the kinda artwork you would've
five years ago paid a designer.

$700 or something to do, and
it happens in like two minutes.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Uh, let's, let's save
that one for, I think that could be like

a, a, a good, uh, closer there, but like,
Mike, like, is, does this track for you?

Like, where are you, where
do you spend your time?

Like, do you sit down, you're
designing a sign, like where

is most of your time spent?

Yeah,

Michael Riley: no, it definitely
does like a, a, a really good

example that I could, I could see.

This applying to is when I do like large
interior sign packages, like ADA signs

with braille and everything on 'em.

You know, if you have a large office
building, say with 200 rooms, the

Americans with Disabilities Act says
that every single door in that building

must have a a sign on it, right?

Mm-hmm.

So when you're designing one of these
large interior sign packages, you've got

say, six or eight different sign types,
restroom signs, and general room signs,

conference rooms, office right there.

So the creative process in that
is designing how each one of

those signs looks and feels.

And that, I don't know that there's any
way to automate that process, right?

Like it's, it's just, it's design.

But yeah, I mean,

Brian Saetre: you know, with this
artificial intelligence, we're not,

it's not there yet, but I probably look
out down the road pretty soon actually.

Uh, but you still have to know
how to use the software, which is

not particularly straightforward.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

Yeah.

I don't know.

I'm skeptical that that's ever fully
gonna take away what, especially

with, with, with design like that,
where there's a lot of restrictions.

I mean, like designing an ADA sign
is different than designing like

a big pile on sign up by the road
because there's a lot of guardrails

in place, uh, with the ADA code that
says this, you know, it's gotta have,

you know, this type of background,
it's gotta be this finish, there's

gotta be this percentage of contrast.

There's a lot of specific rules that, and
then it hasn't look good as well, which is

where I don't, you know, I mean, AI can.

You know, achieve something that
complies with the rules, but whether

or not it's gonna look good, i, I
question if it'll at least get there

Brian Saetre: soon.

You won't do it with like, off the
shelf, like going in the mid journey

and say, Hey, make me an ADA compliant.

Right, right.

Signage package.

That's not happening now.

However, you could train
a model to do that.

Um, so if, if you are a little deeper
into the tech, like I'm pretty sure if

you gave me a number of months, I could
probably make that more or less happen.

The

Bryant Gillespie: he's,
he's too much like me, Mike.

Like, gimme two weeks,
I'll, I'll build it.

Oh, not, not to, I was just thinking out,

Michael Riley: but, yeah.

Yeah.

But like, so, so designing the
individual signs, like what they look

like is the creative process, but then
once that's approved by the client,

then you've gotta go in and you've
gotta lay out each individual sign.

So in a, in a.

In a building, a large office
building, you could have say, 5, 6,

700 total signs, even though there's
only, you know, six or eight designs.

Then you gotta apply that to
each different location in the

building, and that's where.

You know, automation would be super
handy if, if I could just upload the

spreadsheet list of every sign type and
the sign message and, and automate that

process of laying out each individual
message or each layout for each sign.

You know, that's the final
step in the process of that.

And it, doing that takes twice
as long as the creative does.

Yeah.

And it's, you know, uh, if, if I'm just
designing the look and feel of the sign

family, that can be anywhere from five
to, you know, 30, 40 hours to do that.

But then to expand that, depending
on the size of the, the, the full,

the full scope of the project to, to
actually do all the individual message

layouts, then could add another 20,
30, 40 hours to the project to do that.

Cuz it's, it's all manual.

I mean, I've got a copy and paste
and type in what the next one is.

And, and it's all, you know, I think in
core draw there's a way you can kind of

automate that a little bit by doing a
data merge with a spreadsheet, but it's.

It's carll draw and it's
not, it's not that good.

And is it,

Bryant Gillespie: is it like, is it
something you get straight template,

Mike, or is it like, okay, like
here's the, the restroom sign.

Okay, this, this one has got like
an extra bit of copy on it and

like I gotta manually tweak that?

Michael Riley: Yeah, having to
manually tweak them is kind of rare.

I mean, usually in every sign
package there's a few that you've

gotta, you know, kind of manually
mess with a little bit, but, but 98%

of them are pretty straightforward
and, and, and could be templated.

Um, for sure.

And, and yeah, it's a, you know,
it's a huge, it's a huge time suck

to, to do that part of it because
it's just, it's, it's just busy work.

There's no creativity to it at all.

It's just plugging in data and copying
and pasting and, and automating

something like that would, would save
an insane amount of time for, for me.

I mean, that's, that's the first
example that comes to my mind.

But there's a, there's a lot of
things like that and what I do that

Brian Saetre: could potentially be, that's
a very, a very good example because,

You know, no artist is gonna be mad that
you're taking that work away from them.

You know, when you automate it, you
just, you just sit there and watch

it happen on your screen, depending
on how you wanted to set it up,

using one of our systems or even some
other systems that are available.

Most other systems that I know about
will just kind of go through and

just plop them all out into a folder.

Mm-hmm.

And then you can go through and
edit them if you feel like it.

Our system will allow you to
like edit them as they're being

generated if you would like to.

Uh, so if there's any tweaks you need to
make in this case, it may just be almost

completely automatable and you could kind.

Just dump the output into a folder and
do quality assurance on 'em real quick.

Now the trick

Michael Riley: is it has to be compiled
into like a full drawing set for approval.

Cause once, once they approve the,
the design of the signs, then they've

gotta go through and they wanna see.

And then sometimes it can be a
hundred plus page document of

every one of these things laid out.

Oh, okay.

You know, and, and there'll be, you
know, 6, 8, 10, however many you

can fit on a page, sometimes 20 on
a page with, with each individual.

And, and that's really like, you
know, the time consuming part, well,

part of the time consuming part.

And then exporting those is, is
individual production ready files.

Obviously on top of that becomes, uh,
you know, another headache and hurdle.

But just creating that, it's basically a
proof Creating that proof document that

has every, every sign message laid out
to scale, uh, is, yeah, it's, it sucks.

That's,

Brian Saetre: that's
pretty straightforward.

If you wouldn't mind, uh, the artwork,
uh, going into Adobe Illustrator real

quick and then popping back into draw.

Um, I can make that work.

That would be, that would be pretty, yeah,
that would be pretty straightforward.

Uh, that's a.

Right now that's pretty typical of most
of the work we're doing with this plugin.

Interesting.

Michael Riley: Yeah, that kinda
automation, I mean, that's, that's kinda

automation that I, I think would free
up designers to be much more creative.

I mean, as designers, we're always racing
the clock and we're trying to split the

difference between being creative and
being efficient and, and, and really

like the only, when we're talking about,
you know, true creativity in design

and, and not like, you know, busy work
and, and, and production design, but

like, you know, actually trying to be
creative and designing something, the

sacrifice there is you, you've gotta,
you've gotta think down the line and,

and say, okay, when I get done with
this, and I've gotta do this, this,

and this, so I've gotta really hurry
on the creative and maybe cut corners.

Or maybe, you know, the
quality there is sacrifice.

So things that, that remove.

You know, that those other tasks from a
designer's plate, so the designer is freed

up to just focus solely on the creativity.

I, I, I think would, would be huge.

Not just from a time thing, but also
from a time standpoint, but also

from quality of design standpoint.

The more time a designer has, the

Brian Saetre: better
the design's gonna be.

If you finish creating all the
variations and then they decide,

oh wait, oops, sorry, we forgot.

We need a reg, a registered marker
trademark in this corner, or

we need something else tweaked.

You probably had that happen, right?

Oh, I,

Michael Riley: uh, that's a sore subject.

Yeah.

Well, no, I'm dealing with it right now.

I like a package that has like, like
2000 different units in it, and,

and like, everything's laid out.

Everything's done and
ready to go to production.

Like, oh yeah, we, we need
to make this one minor.

And, and like in the customer's mind,
it's like a really simple tweak, right?

Like there's nothing to
it at all to their mind.

But when you have to go back
and apply that tweak to every

one of those 2000 signs,

Brian Saetre: I, that's it.

It's tons of time.

What?

It's bad when you have to just
click a button to say rebuild.

Right.

And then it rebuilds it.

Maybe, maybe it takes 15
minutes or something, but Yeah.

Michael Riley: But yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm, I'm looking at a week's
worth of work to do it manually.

Yeah.

And that's, you know, and it's,
it's billable time for me.

So on one hand it's like, well, cool,
I get to charge you more and, and

I'll take your money all day long.

But on the other hand, it's like, that
really, really tanks your schedule

as well, and it really spreads you
thin as a designer for something

that it just doesn't move the needle.

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, like it's nice to
have that billable time that

you're, you're gonna get, but.

But in the grand scheme of things,
it's more important to be more

efficient and get more work out the
door than it is just keep grabbing

hours outta the air cuz they're

Bryant Gillespie: there.

Yeah.

Um, I, I think where I, I, one of the
things that I'm really curious about

is like, when do you reach for the
automation versus just like, knuckling

under and like getting it done?

Right.

Because I, I know, like I,
I dabble in development.

I'll, let's say that Mike, I,
that's probably pretty fair.

Mike would say I'm like
an actual developer.

I'm kind of like on the fence.

Like if somebody was like, Hey, I
want to pay you to develop this, I

would be like, eh, I don't, I don't,
I'm not comfortable with that.

But if it's something I've
tackled on my own, yeah, great.

But sometimes like I, like I put on
that lazy developer like hat and I'm

like, oh, like I could automate this.

Really, it wouldn't take too
long to automate and then I

wouldn't have to do it again.

But there's also this balance of like,
I'm just overthinking it, like it's

gonna take me like 20 minutes to do
this and then I probably won't have

to do it again for like six months.

Brian Saetre: Yeah.

Yeah.

So if you find yourself doing the same
thing again and again, that's when you

wanna take a look at automating it.

In the meantime, it might be worth
writing some notes, like a, like a

skeleton of a standard operating procedure
if you think it might come up again.

Um, but if it's just a one-time thing, uh,
we will automate projects like that, like

that I was telling you about that, that
blueprint product for the data analytics

software, uh, just because there's
hundreds of them and, uh, the automations

are pretty easy to do and doing them
without the automations is you're almost

always gonna screw it up a little bit.

Um, and it takes a while.

So, um, there's kinda a cost benefit
analysis there, but if it's gonna take you

20 minutes to do it manually and you don't
think it's something you're gonna have to

do again, then I, I wouldn't, even if it
take me 20 minutes to do the automation,

I probably wouldn't usually bother.

I would just do it manually.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

Like it's really what's been your
experience in the past, like as you're

growing like the artwork IQ side of
like, you know, when do we develop

the s o p and then like, can you
like, speak to like a specific example

beyond like this blueprint project of
like, okay, hey we, we noticed we were

getting X, Y, and Z every single week.

And then we said, okay, here's what
the s o P looks like, blah, blah, blah.

Like, okay, now we need to
do an automation for this.

Yeah.

Brian Saetre: Let me see if I
can think of a good example.

So there's one I've
been doing for a while.

Uh, it was, I've had this customer, I
don't know, like 15 years or something.

So I've been doing this process for,
you know, like quite, quite a long

time and I've gotten really, really,
really good at it, really fast.

Don't have to think, uh, but it still
takes about 45 minutes of my time.

And since I'm trying to build
another company, uh, it's, it's.

It's a little distracting.

So recently we started building
that into an s o p only to realize

that there's like, I don't know,
47 steps or something like that.

It's just I've been doing it so
long, I don't have to think about it

Bryant Gillespie: anymore.

Uh, yeah.

But it really does need to be

Brian Saetre: something that my
employees can do, and it's different

enough for most of the work.

Uh, what it is, is, uh, we work
with a ceramics manufacturer and,

uh, they have custom monograms.

So if somebody, if people get married,
they might have their initials

monogrammed on it, so it's like,
like fine China, that sort of thing.

So we have to lay these monograms out
on a layout, um, and then apply a cover

coat, uh, because the, they have to
be then, uh, applied to the, uh, to

the China and then fired in an oven.

So it's a sort of a repetitive
process, and there's a lot

of quality control involved.

We also have to create the monograms in
like one of, uh, 24 styles or something.

So there's like a lot to it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, um, so yeah, we've decided it's
time to, it's time to go through

the process of automating that.

And, uh, we're about
halfway done, I would say.

But right now, right
now, it's mostly manual.

And then what we do usually is we have
employees go through the manual process

first a little bit so they understand it.

Um, and then we automate the, we dis
discover which parts take the most time

or, uh, cause the most potential for
like making errors, making mistakes.

And then we automate those steps first.

And what ends up happening is you
take a procedure that started as like

a 40 something step procedure and
you like condense it down so that a

lot of those steps, like become one
chunk of code that runs automatically

that they deploy doesn't have to see.

So it ends up becoming a much easy, easier
thing to teach to, uh, new employees.

If someone goes on vacation,
like if I ever go on vacation, I

always, in the past, I've always
found myself doing that project.

It's like it takes too long
to kind of master it manually.

That that's kind of a,
maybe that's not the.

It's a little bit of an odd example.

I guess the, the rule of thumb is like if
we have an employee and they, or sorry,

a customer and they're a printing company
who's ordered something of few times,

uh, we'll do more than just like write
down the file format they need and what

they're doing with it and we'll, we'll
go into it and, uh, like export, set up

exports and, and use templates, uh, to
get things a little bit automated there.

And if it's something that's a little
bit out of the ordinary and there's more

steps involved, then in like a typical,
just sort of draw it as a vector, set

spot colors, save it as EPS eight, or send
it if it's more complicated than that.

If we, you know, if we find ourselves.

I guess it, honest, honestly, it's
when it starts to become annoying.

That's when we got meeting.

Bryant Gillespie: That's, that's kind
of a rambling answer to your question.

No, no, no.

That's, no, that's great.

Great to like watch you go
through it because Yeah, and it

kinda, to me that's sound to it.

Yeah.

I mean, I, yeah, that's, I, I
feel like that will track with a

lot of listeners of like mm-hmm.

Not just an artwork, but like, Hey,
when do we need an s o p for this?

Or like, is, hey, It's got to the
point where like, Hey, I could do

this faster than anyone, but I,
I'm trying to go on vacation, or

I don't want to do this anymore.

And yeah.

Hey, like, like Mike, maybe you
could speak to this, like your,

your design business is exploding.

You're, you're trying to bring on
other designers, like how do you,

how do you codify what you do for
somebody else so that the results,

like the end result is similar?

Like what are, what are you
doing personally on that front?

Michael Riley: Oh, nothing.

No.

Any, any of my knowledge, any
of my designers, like, they've

gotta know what they're doing
when it comes to sign design.

I, I can't, I can't hold anybody's
hand and tell somebody how to design

a pile on Z or channel letter sign.

Like, you just, you gotta know, you know,
and I'm using, you know, many requests,

which is an online, you know, kind
of project management app that, that.

It brings everybody together.

But at the end of the day, I mean,
because so much of it's creative, I,

I, I wouldn't even know where to begin
to turn any of that into an s o p.

Um, yet, it's something that I haven't put
any brain power to and probably should.

So thank you for that.

Bryant Gillespie: Yep.

Thanks for calling you out.

Like Yeah, rough enough.

I mean, I, I see that all the time, right?

Like, or, well, I, I won't say I see it
all the time, but how many des, how many

shop owners have we talked to Mike, where
it's like, Hey, I want to like, measure

and get more out of the design department.

Like how, you know, like production.

Okay.

Yeah.

Like we could go in and measure
like, okay, throughput, like,

Hey, you made a hundred thousand
dollars worth of signs this month,

or you made 50 signs this month.

But like on design, it, is it being
a creative process, but also with

a production focus, you know, like
you still gotta get it out the door.

Like, what, what are the standards there?

You know, or like, how do you.

You not just like, rely on the
designer's design ability, you know,

like, like you gotta be able to
produce repeatable results, right?

Michael Riley: Yeah.

And I don't, I don't know how
that's a, other than, other

than just like purely talented
designers doing what they do best.

I mean, when I was in the art
department of security science,

um, I would say they probably had
the most efficient art department

that I've, you know, kind of seen.

And they used a Smartsheet tracking
tool that they built to, um,

you know, to put a few KPIs and
metrics on, on what's going on.

The design director would review every
incoming project and she would determine

a, you know, an estimated amount of
time it would take, that'd be put on

the, the, the Smartsheet, and then the
designer would have the track actual time.

And, you know, there's in, in that
data eventually was used to say,

okay, for these types of signs,
they're taking this amount of time,

so we need to allot this on average.

And, but, Design is so subjective at
the end of the day, especially when

you're talking about the creative and
the design, there's a limit to what

you can, I don't know, standardize
and, and turn into a process with it.

I think because the, in my opinion,
the more you, the more you do that

in a way, you're kind of kneecapping
designers a bit and you're, you're

taking away their, their creative
freedom, uh, by, by, by forcing them

into too much of a, a process or a box.

But yeah, you, you know,
does that make sense?

Um, yeah.

That, I mean, that tracks

Bryant Gillespie: with me.

That's like, that's the whole crux here
is like, Hey, hey, this process is,

is fairly creative, but like, we also
gotta get work done and it needs to be

done and in a certain allotted time.

Right?

Yeah.

Brian, like what, what
metrics do you guys track?

Like, like every piece of artwork
that you guys work on, on the

artwork IQ side, like, do you.

Time spent against each job, or

Brian Saetre: really, I should be
better at tracking these metrics.

Okay.

Uh, so if tasks, that's a feature
we're adding, um, okay, cool.

We do have like some rudimentary
time tracking for projects

that are billable by the hour.

Um, oh, okay.

And then we have ways of looking at the
data in the database and seeing how long,

like when someone started a project, when
they fulfilled it and when it went to qc.

But honestly, I don't have a
dashboard for that data right now.

So, uh, we're not, we're not
using it for business analytics

or anything like that at this.

Um, but that's a good idea.

I should be doing that for sure.

What,

Bryant Gillespie: well, I I
it is more just like a gaze.

If like you're processing 80 pieces
of artwork on a, a given day and

you don't have this data, then I'm
just trying to, like Mike, make Mike

feel better about, so Oh, situation

Michael Riley: should

Bryant Gillespie: be clear.

We do

Brian Saetre: have, mostly have the data.

It's just we don't look at it.

Right, right,

Michael Riley: right.

That's probably the problem
with data collection in general.

I mean, I mean, I wonder how many
companies out there track those kind of

data points and KPIs, but don't actually
do anything, whether it's design or

production or anything else, like mm-hmm.

I I would imagine that tracking the data
is in, collecting the data is one thing,

but actually analyzing it, putting,
putting the results of that into action

is probably where most people fall

Brian Saetre: short.

That, that is one of our goals for
Task Os is to make the data available.

Because you can see exactly, you
will be able to see, we don't have

this implemented yet exactly how
long it takes people to do each step.

So you can see where you could pull
up the dashboard once that's done,

uh, and see like, wow, it's taking
artists a lot of time to do this.

Mm-hmm.

Or like, this step doesn't
pass qc some of the time.

So those are the steps maybe to like
focus on automating, or you could use

that data for other business purposes,
like estimating, that sort of thing.

Okay.

Once you get enough data aggregated

Bryant Gillespie: or driving home
the value of your tool, I, I use Loom

quite a bit for like sending videos.

Mm-hmm.

They send me a report every week
or every month that says, Hey,

you saved two meetings this week,
or like two hours a time or four

hours a time, or whatever it is.

Brian Saetre: So yeah, I, we, we did
look at some of the data recently,

uh, with one of our customers who's
using PAs os and they're, they're

a big, pretty big clothing company,
but uh, in the five and a half months

they've been running it, they have
saved, uh, 240 something person days.

Worth of labor.

Days, days, days.

Well, like 24 hour chunks too.

Not just work days.

Maybe I need to have a better way of
talking about that statistic, but like,

it's kind of mind blowing, isn't it?

Like that's, yeah.

I, I would've led with
that on your website.

Uh oh.

Don't, we're working on a new one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If anybody's impressed by this, what I'm
talking about now, look at the website.

They might be like, wait, what?

Well, we've been focusing mostly
on making the tech and a little

bit less on the website, clearly.

All right.

Right.

Yeah.

It's coming along though.

Michael Riley: It is an
impressive metric though.

I mean that's, that speaks volumes about.

The value of, of automating
things like that.

I mean, that's, and I'm, I'm
sure that's a fairly decent size

company to, to save, you know,
yearly year in, in, in man hours.

But, um, I mean, it, it definitely does
speak to how important it is for sure

when you start cracking numbers like that.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: This feels
like a, a pretty good spot to

like transition a little bit.

Do we wanna hit on like ai Mike?

Uh, if I'm happy to talk
about it, I, I, it's also new

Brian Saetre: that unless you're making it
yourself, you can't really be an expert.

But I've been playing with
it every day pretty much.

So Yeah, I can, I can talk about it a
little bit in a sort of a, yeah, yeah.

Semi-educated manner.

Bryant Gillespie: Listen, like how do you
see AI affecting design, Brian, over like,

the, let's, let's, let's like constrain
it to like the next two, three years.

Like I, I think we can all see where
it goes long term, but yeah, like

side guys are like, we're short
term focused, like how is this gonna

affect me over the next couple years?

Like right now

I

Brian Saetre: think it's pretty
powerful for quickly generating ideas.

So, you know, you could just think
about it like, oh, okay, well,

like what are some ideas I have?

Think about it for a little while.

Or you can go to Mid Journey or Dolly
and throw in some prompts about what

you want and have it generate, you
know, 30 different designs for you.

And you might find something in
there that like sparks the creative

juices that you wanna work off that.

So I've done that with
logo designs a little bit.

Like you go to Dolly and you type like,
uh, letter, press, logo, bird, a bunch

of keywords, whatever you're looking for.

And it'll just spit a bunch of
sometimes pretty, pretty interesting,

um, logo ideas out at you, which you
can then turn into a proper logo.

Using your, your Designability.

That isn't really our focus,
our job, but when we do run into

something like that, that we need
to do, it's, it's a pretty fun tool.

And then you can actually use some of
these language models, which are, uh,

which is AI that will, uh, you, you
ask it a question and it'll answer

the question, try to come up with
a good human sounding answer to it.

Mm-hmm.

So you can, you can say, Hey, I need a
logo for, I need a logo for, uh, uh, an

ice cream shop, or something like that.

Uh, please write a prompt
for me, uh, in mid Journey.

Here are some examples,
prompts in Mid Journey.

Please, like, copy these prompts.

Some prompt is like how you, uh,
tell Mid Journey what to make.

So how do you please generate some
prompts for me based on these examples?

Uh, but it should be
for an ice cream shop.

And then it'll go ahead and like, give
you a whole bunch of prompts that you

can then feed into Mid Journey or Dolly.

Where you can get a bunch of, uh,
a bunch of examples where you don't

even have to think too hard about
what you're even asking it to do.

It's that it's kind of crazy.

Did you follow that at all?

I, this people are hard to picture.

Okay.

But as far as like, what it, so I'm
not like, I'm not super, super, super

plugged into design like you are Michael.

So it's a little hard for me
to predict exactly how things

Bryant Gillespie: might go down.

But

Brian Saetre: I could tell you these
tools are becoming scally useful.

I, I think the biggest threat
there isn't such a big threat

to, like vector designers.

I think at the moment.

I think the bigger threat is
to people who make fine art.

Mm-hmm.

And I think they should be
very, very scared, like now.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

I, I definitely agree with that for sure.

Yeah.

I, I think that it's, it's a long way off.

You get into, you know, the
technical aspects of design,

especially like sign design or just.

You know, any sort of technical
design, engineering, architecture,

you know, product design.

I don't, I think it's, like you
said, the ideation side of it.

Making something looks, it looks pretty
or coming up with really neat ideas.

I mean, that's already here
and it's only gonna get better.

Yeah.

But I, I'm skeptical that I, you know,
20, 30, 40 years down the line when

I'm long retired, it may reach this
point, but I'm, I'm skeptical that

in the near future it's ever going
to be able to replace that, that,

that technical vector cad engineering
side of design, because there's,

there's so much nuance to it that.

You can't, can't be codified, I
guess, for lack of a better term.

It's, it's, it's very subjective in a way.

And, and oftentimes there's only one
right way to do something, but it's

not necessarily the way that a book
would tell you it has to be done.

I mean, it's, it, you know, there's a lot
of situational context that has to come

Brian Saetre: into play.

So it's, it's based on
your experience, right?

There's

Michael Riley: exactly, there's a
lot of experience that comes into

play that I, I don't know that a
machine could ever fully grasp.

Does that make sense?

Brian Saetre: I think Yeah.

Totally makes sense.

To play devil's advocate a
little bit, this is where

machine learning might come in.

Mm-hmm.

So if you feed, uh, a computer
program, uh, that does machine learning

with machine learning, uh, like
TensorFlow is, know the name of it,

but hey, let's, let's zoom out for

Bryant Gillespie: just
a minute and like, yeah.

Sorry.

Am I getting too?

No.

Like what's, what's like the.

The fifth grader, machine
learning versus ai.

Brian Saetre: Oh, okay.

Um, so machine learning is a little
more, just a little more narrow.

Jeff Fox,

Bryant Gillespie: where they show or
something, it's, and then like, teach

me like I'm a fifth grader or something.

Brian Saetre: So I have a pretty good
definition from machine learning.

AI is a little more nebulous, at least in
my head, but, um, machine learning is when

you feed examples, when you feed a bunch
of, there's a few ways to do it and it, I

don't wanna sound like a professor here.

Um, so, so anyway, basically you
feed, uh, a computer computer

algorithm or a computer, uh,
program that does machine learning.

A whole bunch of data that shows like,
Hey, this is how something should be done.

It might be something that's very hard
for a computer programmer to like write

an algorithm to do because there's just,
there's just too many variables involved

and it's just something that a human
like programmer wouldn't really be able

to figure out, at least not efficiently.

So the machine learning though, uh,
programs will like look at all the data.

And they will, uh, write algorithms
that really aren't even comprehensible

to us humans, human programmers that
will then be able to produce that

output sometimes fairly reliably.

Um, and I'm not a machine learning expert.

Uh, we've been exploring it a
little bit with our product.

Um, so I've talked to some professors
here about it who confuse me.

So I'm, she's now here to
confuse you in a similar manner.

Yeah.

Uh, but, but it, it, you can teach
machines to do very human, like

make very human-like choices.

However, that's like one choice.

It, uh, for like, there, there's so many
choices to be made for something like

a d h or uh, ADA compliance signage.

Yeah.

So I think the only way that in the
near term that machine learning and

AI are gonna matter there is if you
have a company that's specifically

focusing on writing software for
that purpose, and they train a bunch

of machine learning algorithms.

How to do all the pieces and then put it
together, which I'm not sure that's gonna

happen in the next couple years because
the, the niche is a little bit specific.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: It's not, not
that expensive of a problem.

Well, it, it's probably expensive
to solve, but it's not, not that

valuable of a problem to solve at this

Brian Saetre: point.

The, you can get many of the gains of the
automation by just, you know, automating

the, uh, well, we've already talked
about using Task Os or other, other,

any other template based, um, automation
system there for exporting the, yeah.

So you don't even need to really do that.

Maybe, but I, I'm sure it's coming.

It's just not like, it's probably a
little ways away because these tools

are gonna have to get easier to use.

And the biggest thing is data
is pretty hard to come by.

So, um, right.

It's hard to train something if you
don't have the data to train it, and

that's, that's really the problem most
of these machine learning scientists run

into when they're trying to train these.

Yeah, I

Michael Riley: was thinking that in my
head as you're talking through that.

I was thinking here, do I
understand machine learning?

And, and there's probably a lot of
applications for it where the data

exists, but I'm thinking in the,
in my little world of sign design,

everything lives in everybody's head.

There's, there's very little like, yeah.

You know, hard, hard
and fast data that you

Bryant Gillespie: could feed to
a, you need to talk to Tom and

get like all the, like, digitize
all the back issues of sign craft.

Like, that

Michael Riley: would
be pretty interesting.

Bryant Gillespie: It'd be interesting
to see if that could, you could

talk about reviving what, what
was once old and making it new

Michael Riley: again.

Man.

Robot sign pairs.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah,

Brian Saetre: that wouldn't be
the kind of data you'd need for

machine learning algorithms.

So you're probably safe for a bit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You might be able to get, uh,
like a language model to like

talk like a sign maker though,
pretty easily using that data.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: All right.

I just wanna try this.

Give what do we, what do we tell chat?

G p t.

Like write a, let's, let's write a poem

Brian Saetre: about, um,
automation and sign design.

Let's write

Bryant Gillespie: a poem about
automation and sign design.

In a world of automation where
machines reign supreme, there's

still a place for art and style
where signs can catch our dreams.

That's,

yeah.

Okay.

So this, this type of stuff is cool.

Um, like a.

I want to create a what, what kind of
signs do you have on the plate, Mike?

Michael Riley: Uh, let's, let's see
what it does with a, an ADA sign.

I want to create a i, an ADA compliant.

Restroom sign.

Restroom

Bryant Gillespie: sign.

What's a prompt I can use to generate, uh,

oh,

hey, let's just take this piece.

Yeah.

All right.

So I got, I've got mid journey here.

Excuse, like the, the matrix rabbit stuff.

Brian Saetre: That's, is, this is the
worst user interface of any product

I've ever seen in my entire life.

Indeed.

Yeah.

Like everything scrolls by at a hundred
miles a minute, like just creates,

Bryant Gillespie: oh,
no, I thought I had a

Brian Saetre: subscription.

Are you out of credits?

Shoot?

Uh,

Bryant Gillespie: probably.

All right.

Have you played with this, Mike?

Oh gosh.

Okay.

I, this is not even gonna be fun.

I'm out of credits, I

Michael Riley: guess.

Brian Saetre: Um,

Bryant Gillespie: if you want,
I can, uh, do a little screen

Brian Saetre: recording of, uh,
in my, um, in my mid journey.

Uh, yeah, yeah.

You guys afterwards, if
you can, maybe the podcast.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah,
we could just drop it in.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

Cool.

Yeah, I played around with, I haven't
played around with Mid Journey.

I played around with a couple of the
others and, uh, but I haven't tried to

get it to do anything super technical.

I mean, a couple, Hey, I need some
ideas for a, you know, a monument sign

type thing, just to see what comes out.

And some of the ideas are really cool.

All the, you know, the graphics
and text are total gibberish,

you know, they're like mm-hmm.

They look like weird, almost like
tie lettering or something, but

Bryant Gillespie: yeah.

Yeah.

The, the lettering is kind of weird, isn't

Brian Saetre: it?

If I wasn't busy with other
stuff, I would set up an agency.

Maybe there's somebody listening
will do this because, uh, set up an

agency that just fixes the fingers on
otherwise fantastic mid journey artwork.

Just fix the fingers in the teeth, um,
and like, or remove the one thing in

the background that doesn't belong.

Uh, and, and you have an, you
have a pretty, you have an agency

that's gonna get a lot of work.

I think that's hilarious.

Boom.

Bryant Gillespie: Done.

I love it.

Cool.

Well, um, let's wrap this one up.

Brian, I appreciate you coming on, man.

Uh, before we jump, what, tell
everybody how they can find

you, where you want them to go.

Like which business do
you want them to visit?

Brian Saetre: Oh my gosh.

Okay.

Uh, so if, if anybody wants to
buy, uh, a printing company in the

Chicago area, please let me know.

Uh, but uh, no, seriously, um, you can
reach me at [email protected] and my,

uh, other business is, uh, Businesses.

The URLs are www.inpro.com,
artwork iq.com, task os.com.

And then if you wanna reach me on
Twitter, my it's uh, at Brian sat.

And, uh, you'll have to
look up how to spell that.

It's not very obvious.

Bryant Gillespie: Oh, I've, I've been
pronouncing it wrong the whole time.

Everybody's

Brian Saetre: sat.

Bryant Gillespie: Yes.

Why didn't, oh dude.

Now I

Brian Saetre: feel like an asshole.

That French, you mean you, you're
not an expert in like anti like,

uh, 1850s or 1890s Norwegian
dialect from the southwest.

Really?

Unfortunately,

Bryant Gillespie: no.

But I want to be terrible podcast host

Michael Riley: here.

Life goal.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What, what an ass.

Well, I'm sorry, I, I've got it wrong.

Brian Satre.

Satre.

Is that better?

Did you, did you

Brian Saetre: say it wrong?

When we uh, when you invited me on?

I don't, yes.

Or when you introed me.

Yes.

I didn't even know this.

I

guess

Bryant Gillespie: it just,
yeah, I probably did.

You you got like the Brian
Ryan thing going on too though.

So like anybody's around me if they say
Ryan or Brian, I'm just like, yeah, yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, I was always

Brian Saetre: in the class with the
Brian and the Ryan in grade school.

Like there's always like to just pack

Bryant Gillespie: them together.

Like,

Brian Saetre: this will be fun.

This'll, this'll add
some humor to this class.

Everybody answering at
once or nobody answering.

Yeah.

It's wonderful.

Uh,

Bryant Gillespie: exactly, exactly.

Well, we'll make sure we
drop all the links here.

Like, are you guys, are you guys
like selling Task os yet or is

it beta or are you doing demos?

Brian Saetre: It is, it's, well, it's not
really beta, um, but we're just bringing

on customers very slowly and deliberately.

But if you're interested, please
go to our website and sign up for

the list and we will let you know
when it's more generally available.

And, um, I believe we have
a forum on the website.

We can even describe what you'd like to
do with it, which will help us sort of.

Determine if it's a
good fit or not for you.

Cool.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, I think,
I think it's very interesting

what you're doing with it.

I look forward to like following
along with the progress.

Um, hopefully like at some
point we can help Mike automate

and streamline his operation.

It's sounds like you, well

Michael Riley: it sounds like

Brian Saetre: we have one
especially good use case.

Like that would be a
fantastic use case for it.

And, um, I think you'd, uh, you'd
find the development costs would,

would, would not be, uh, would
be money well spent, I think.

Michael Riley: Cool.

Fascinating.

Bryant Gillespie: Excellent.

Yeah.

Mike, any pardoning shots?

Michael Riley: AI freaks me out
and I'm scared for my future.

Brian Saetre: Well, thank you.

Thank you very much for having me on.

I really appreciate it.

Michael Riley: Um, yeah, this is
really fascinating conversation.

I, I appreciate

Brian Saetre: you coming on for, for sure.

I'm glad I wasn't just a nervous
wreck the whole time, cuz I thought

I might be, but yeah, you uh,
you too are good podcast host.

Very easy to talk to.

Well, good.

Thank

Michael Riley: you.

No, this was, this is really

Bryant Gillespie: cool.

Yeah, we're, we're, we're good ramblers.

Yeah.

We, we get good at that Yeah.

Ourselves.

Yeah.

If this is a good conversation,
um, definitely stay in touch and

appreciate you coming on Brian.

Michael Riley: Thanks.

Absolutely.

Brian Saetre: Thank you very much.

All

Bryant Gillespie: right guys.

So thanks for sticking around.

That was, that was an
awesome conversation.

I don't know, um, how many tips that
we gave, but let's, uh, let's sum

this up and, and like try to distill
everything that we talked about.

Like, do you wanna go first,
Mike, or you want me to go.

Michael Riley: I'm still
processing a lot of it.

No, I think it's, I think it was a really
fascinating conversation to, to talk to

somebody who's, who's kind of eyeball
deep in the, the ai, uh, automation world

like that and how it relates to graphics.

Um, and I'm, you know, my mind is
like thinking of all these ways that

this would, would make a lot of sign
companies and and wide format shops

and designers like me more efficient.

It's, it's such a new concept though,
that it's really hard to really wrap

your head around and, and, and understand
and, and I think there is like a

legitimate fear there from people as well.

I mean, for me, like I don't, I
don't want my my job to be automated.

Where, to the point
where I'm, I'm useless.

Nobody does.

Like, that's, that's terrifying.

But he, he made a good point
that it's, it's not gonna come

after and take people's jobs.

It's just gonna change the
way they, they work and.

And, you know, forward progress dictates
that we have to adapt to that change.

And that's a hard thing for humans to do.

But I think if we're able to, uh,
some of this technology is gonna

make our lives a lot easier and,
and make us all a lot more money.

So I'm, I'm, I'm going to reluctantly
embrace this technology and.

Bryant Gillespie: Reluctant
embrace Sounds like a, a cologne.

Michael Riley: I might be
ushering in the apocalypse.

I'm, I'm not sure.

We'll see.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, I mean, we're
all like supporting this even if

we're like watching from the sidelines
and like cheering it on or Hey, like

hopping in chat G P T and typing dumb
stuff in there, like sign poems, like,

Michael Riley: right.

Yeah, no, like the other day I used
chat, G p t i I, I just asked to create

me, um, a, a playlist of obscure,
you know, seventies Vietnam era rock

and roll that I'd never heard of.

And like it came up with songs that,
in bands that I had no idea existed

and I found some amazing music.

So it's a really cool tool.

I mean, I think, I think it's, it's just
in its infancy and, and as it, as it

grows and gets more mature and as, as we,
as humans grow and get more mature along

with it, I think, I think we'll really
find a, a balance or harmony there between

it and, you know, old school manual.

Skills.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

I, I like, you can't forget, the
other side though is like this

thing, it got extremely popular.

I'm talking about chat, G p T.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

And that's what Brian was saying,
like, you gotta have data to

feed this thing and mm-hmm.

Like at this point, like, we're just
happily feeding this thing all the data

because it's, it's entertaining, but

Michael Riley: yeah.

We're, we're feeding it utter bullshit.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So to me it is a little scary at times.

But, um, yeah, we gotta roll with it
like the, back to our like, topic of,

of streamlining the art department.

I, I think we probably do like
another episode of like structure

and SOPs and things like that.

Uh, I know you've got
some thoughts on that.

I think we've both tried
to tackle like a guide on.

Managing art files and dealing
with customers and stuff like that.

So I, I think that would be
an interesting episode, but

Michael Riley: I, I agree.

I, I think we should do that.

I mean, there's a lot of structural
and process things that, that relate

to the, the design department that
really don't really even have anything

to do necessarily with automation
or, or, or, or AI or anything.

But just, you know, it's like any other
department in your shop, you, you have

processes for, for everything else.

There should be some for, for art as well.

And that's something that's, you
know, sorely overlooked in most shops.

Bryant Gillespie: I, I think the biggest
takeaway for me today was just say, and I

heard you kind of say it, and I also heard
like Brian dance around it a little bit

as well, is just like design efficiency.

Like a, I don't know, there's
a way to combine them, right?

Uh, the creativity side of it is,
It's just inherently not efficient.

So if you're trying to streamline
your art department, you're trying to

make your designers more efficient,
take away the boring, stupid, mundane

stuff that they have to do so they can
focus more on the creative part of it.

Like get them designing the sign,
automate as much as you can of the output.

The, uh, ripping, like I, I don't,
ripping is the right word, but

like, output to different formats.

Like if, if you've got Onyx, things like
that, use the hot folders and phonic Onyx.

Those were some of my best friends
where you set up like a preset, uh,

drop your file in there and it does like
the imposition and everything for you.

So try to focus on as much of that
stuff, which is just like tedious,

you know, mistakes can occur.

Anywhere in that chain.

Like you forget to apply the
proper color profile, like the

output's gonna be screwed up.

But that's, that's all stuff that
computers are, are really great at.

Mm-hmm.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

For sure.

Embrace the technology.

Bryant Gillespie: Just don't
feed it like you're bank account

information or any of that.

Brian Saetre: Yes.

Bryant Gillespie: Or guns.

Don't give us guns.

Michael Riley: Don't arm the computers.

People you want terminators cuz
that's how you get Terminators.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

Cool.

All right, let's wrap this one up.

If you are interested in being a guest
on the podcast, we love interesting

stories, so shoot us an email.

Hey, at better sign shop.com.

We are suckers for good
stories, so check that out.

Send us an email.

If you are a sign shop owner, make
sure you check out our Facebook group.

You can find that somewhere
down below this episode.

Or if you're listening, I, I don't
know how you're gonna find it if

you're, if you're just listening, but
it's in the description somewhere.

And big thank you to our sponsor,
GCI Digital, your large format.

Provider, your large format
wholesale print provider, your grand

format print wholesale provider.

These guys are awesome.

They do customer service the way
that grandmother used to make it.

So if you want somebody who is
willing to spend $5,000 on a flight

to make sure that you've got your
stuff on time, those are your guys.

Check them out.

Print gci.com.

Happy to have 'em as sponsors.

Yeah,

Michael Riley: TJ Rocks.

Great guys over there.

Bryant Gillespie: I think that's it.

That's it.

Send us your nicknames.

Mike needs nicknames.

Yay.

And And that's a wrap, Mike.

Pleasure.

I enjoyed it today as the
day keep, keep doing the Mr.

Rogers thing till next.

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