Better Sign Shop Podcast

Learn how to build a better sign and
print shop from a few crusty sign

guys who've made more mistakes than
they care to admit conversations

and advice on pricing, sales,
marketing, workflow, growth, and more.

You're listening to the better sign shop
podcast with your hosts, Peter Kourounis,

Michael Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.

Before we jump into the episode,
I'd like to give a shout out to

our sponsor, GCI digital printing,
grand format printer to the trade.

GCI is not your average print shop.

They pride themselves on
providing you a fast, stress

free experience when outsourcing.

Their no excuses mindset means no matter
the job, they'll have it done every time.

No other vendor will go to the
lengths that GCI does to ensure

you're a satisfied customer.

To hear more about their approach
to business, hop back into the

archives to episode 9, where the
guys and I interview owner TJ Bedak

about top tier customer experience.

If you're looking for a high quality trade
printer, for banners, mesh, coroplast, and

more, TJ and his crew will have your back.

For jobs big or small, GCI does them all.

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com.

Hi guys, welcome back to the next
episode of the Better Sign Shop Podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Gillespie.

Uh, my two co hosts, Michael and
Peter are not here at the moment.

So I figured I would go
ahead and kick this one off.

Um, if you're watching the video feed,
you'll see this amazing mustache.

Uh, yesterday was Halloween and I had
to commit fully to my, uh, costume.

My wife dressed up as Taylor Swift.

I was, of course.

Uh, Travis Kelsey, uh, if you know
me, you know, I'm the furthest thing

from an NFL football player, but, um,
anyway, you got to go all in sometimes.

Uh, today we've got a,
another special guest with us.

I really excited about this episode.

All right, guys, we are back
with our special guest for today.

Mr.

Evan Zebley, Evan.

Nice to have you on the podcast.

Thanks.

Nice

to be here.

I originally reached out to you
several months ago, maybe half a

year at this point, because I saw
that you were posting a lot of really

cool videos of like sign installs and
stuff that you were doing for clients.

Um, I thought it would be a
great story to have you on and

interview you about that, but.

In that time, I think you've had a lot
of changes going on professionally, so,

uh, maybe you want to jump in and just
give us some of your backstory and tell

us about your journey in the industry.

Sure.

I mean, uh, it's, I guess the truncated
version, cause it's pretty eventful.

I guess if anybody ever.

Feels like they're not sure
they're doing the right thing.

Uh, and they're comparing themselves
to old systems, which are, you

know, the classic, you go into
a job, you work it for 30 years,

you stay loyal to that company.

I get that.

And that's commendable.

That was not the path for me.

Uh, the last 10 years in the sign
business, the only way that I've.

Been able to really move up
as they've been to move out.

And that's what I've
been doing year by year.

So I've had the great opportunity, uh,
every year that as I grow a market to

then ask my employer, Hey, are we ready
to take my income to the next level?

When they say no, I'm like,
all right, that's cool.

I'm going to go on to
the next thing though.

And, uh, just keep going until
now that's culminated in.

I have to have my own shop.

So that just started two months ago is
the first time in about 10 years that

I've felt comfortable saying, you know
what, I've got a good customer base.

I understand all the ins and outs
of everything with this business.

I'm fine.

Just cold going out on my own.

Um, and it has been, I mean, we're at,
uh, we're in the middle of week nine now.

And the great parts are I've been able to
pay myself every week, which is a bonus.

Uh, you know, there's money in the bank.

And then all that really comes
from, like you said, it's got

to do with the market share.

So, you know, there's many,
many great crafters out there.

They're good at their job.

They know what to do.

They can provide you an excellent product
that will work for your, your need.

Uh, but.

Everybody's not marketing that.

And so the, I would attribute the
whole reason of why I'm able to go out

on my own is to just me having market
share for people, knowing my face,

knowing me personally in my market.

Gotcha.

So you kind of built your own brand.

If we, if we back up a little
bit, like how did you get

your start in the industry?

Or back up quite a bit, I guess,
potentially, you know, I think

you said you've been in the
industry at least 10 years now.

Yeah, it's been about 10 years.

Um, so I was, uh, before I got into
anything to do with media, I was

actually managing restaurants and bars.

So I was very much into that life where
it's, you know, I'm peddling booze

pretty much and making good money.

You know, it's, And it's a fun
time, uh, but I wanted to have a

family and it's not really conducive
to having good family time.

You know, close down the bar at four
in the morning and then take the

kid to the soccer game at eight.

Doesn't really work that great.

So I was like, I got to
do something different.

I had an opportunity to go work for
a newsprint publisher, which, uh,

if you want to learn about deadlines
and working fast and hard like

that, that was definitely it, um, I
was the narrow point of the funnel

when it came to production design.

And so.

Every ad that was in every
newspaper, every magazine, every

book that all went across my desk.

Um, and I think I was working
that job for about a year and a

half when my sister called me.

And my sister was working for a
farmer in South Georgia that had

a sign shop in his farmhouse.

And she said, Evan, you know, the guy
I'm working for says he's tired of signs.

He wants to sell all the equipment and
the book of business to us for 10, 000.

Do you Want to get into
the sign business with me.

And I was like, well, I guess I think
I could be good at being my own boss.

Like, all right, let's, let's try it.

So, uh, she lived in South Georgia.

I was in kind of North Georgia at the time
and moved down there to South Georgia.

And I remember week one,
it was like, we've got.

You know, the business
is already operating.

So we got jobs rolling and, uh, I was
like, okay, we got this banner order.

I don't even really know what a banner is.

I don't, certainly don't know how to
print it or like what this big machine is.

Like, I don't know anything about this.

And my sister's like, well, that's cool,
but I have to have a baby right now.

So I'm going to go.

And so she, she was pregnant with,
uh, with my niece at the time.

And, um, anyway, like the switcheroo, it
was literally like, okay, figure this out.

And I remember it's, I remember the model,
you know, we were running a Roland S 500,

V and, uh, it's a solvent inkjet printer.

And of course the smell of it, all
of that, I figured out, you know,

okay, this is how you load media.

This is how you use VersaWorks.

Okay.

I'm printing.

Oh, but I'm getting
these lines on the print.

I don't know what to do.

And I, oh, there's gotta be something.

And the only solution I could figure out
at the time was to sit there and hold.

The banner as it was coming out.

So I was sitting there manually taking
up about 150 linear feet of banner, just

hoping because, you know, it's, it's
the sign that they need it tomorrow.

It's the sign business.

Um.

And that was my for me,

for me, I don't mean to stop you there,
Evan, but I love that you said that just

shows how like really into this business.

You really are because only a true
person in the signage where you

could say something like that and
know that I have legit experience.

It's legit.

Like you have, you have been in
the trenches, you know, for me,

it was crumpled up pieces of tape.

A blue painter's tape like put underneath
the vinyl so that it like comes out

straighter and then those those little
like harbor freight squeeze clamps that

you could like put on it so that it keeps
it taut and wait you know I mean like

it's that's so funny that you've been
there and I haven't heard too many of

my clients or anybody that I've worked
with like say that so I know now exactly

who I'm talking to.

Oh man, I gotta, I gotta tell you
that, um, that, that began, you

know, the, the whole sign journey.

Right.

And, and of course, like I said, we're
working out of a pole barn, which we

had, I think we started in November.

He gave us until January to move out.

Um, so found a little 1500
square foot spot in a strip mall.

And, uh, and I remember nobody was
available to help me on move weekend.

So it was just me.

Moving everything and
getting the new shop set up.

And I mean, I did it, of course I did it
because come Monday we have to get back

to work, so I couldn't just not do it.

Um, but yeah, that relationship with that
Roland, the Roland was a great printer.

I will say that I learned how to take.

Every safety feature off of it, how
to get it completely taken apart.

Like it was like the most
manual printer since like a

Heidelberg press or something.

Like if you weren't watching it and
it didn't have media, it was just

going to like spew ink on the floor.

Like I needed it to work, you
know, I didn't, I didn't have

money to go get another printer.

Like that's what I had.

Um, but yeah, it was, it was great.

I learned, you know, everybody that
takes that step where they're thinking

about, Oh, I want to go be my own boss.

Or they look at their boss and they
think, man, this person has no idea.

I can do it way better.

Well, I learned all the
things that I didn't know.

Like I learned what it meant to be in the
shop without leaving, sleeping on the work

tables, be there for 72 hours at a time.

You know, I learned what it meant to.

Uh, have somebody else making promises
that you have to deliver on and now you're

the one that's got to make it happen.

Um, I, I learned about, you know, the
stuff that a lot of people don't think

about that, Hey, if it's too much work
and you literally can't get it done

and you've got to pay somebody else to
help you, well, the cashflow, right?

You, you got to pay that person, even
if your customers haven't paid you yet.

And guess who's not getting a check?

You.

Like you can't not pay your employee.

And, um, so it was a lot of
great struggles, but also a lot

of great opportunities, learning
opportunities to know, okay, this

is the kind of person I want to be.

I always told myself I wanted
to be this kind of a boss.

Well, now's my chance to really do it.

I always told myself I wanted to
deliver this way for my customers.

Well, now's the opportunity
for me to actually do that.

And, you know, we grew, I think, um, the
person we bought that business from, they

were using it sort of like a tax write
off to just funnel expenses into, uh,

they were grossing maybe like 30 K a year.

It was nothing like they were
losing money on just hemorrhaging.

So we set up a new LLC and transferred,
you know, the book of business

and all of that, so we didn't
take on any of that liability and.

I think in our first year, it was just
me and my sister and we did about 180.

And then the second year we
were about like mid threes.

And then I noticed like there
was a cap for our market.

That was, that was kind of it.

You know, we're not a franchise brand.

We didn't have name recognition,
but I have a sales team out there.

It was just us kind of
in the shop working.

And then also we were in
kind of a saturated market.

There were actually small, small
market, not that many customers,

but a lot of sign shops.

So it was kind of like a race to the
bottom when it came to pricing things.

You know, you're sitting there and
your customer's like, man, I got to

tell you 4 a square foot for a banner.

That's just too much, you know, down
the street, they're charging me 250.

And you're like, well, 250, I'm
going to go buy it from them.

Like you, you don't know what to do.

It was

incredibly common in this industry.

Like that's a, you hop on the forums.

That's the first thing you hear is
like, Hey, this guy's undercutting me.

And it's like, well, like it, let
him let, I mean, what do you do?

I mean, that's, that's it.

It's like, you have to
find your customers.

And the problem with that particular
geographic location was we had

soaked up all the customers.

There, there were no more
customers to bring into the market.

So, uh, you know, now this is the downside
of being in a family business is that.

When you're in the business, and this was
a thing that I learned, and then I think

other people should learn it as well.

It's important to document what
it is that you're doing, even

when you're so busy that you don't
want to take the time to do that.

The reason is when you're working
for 24 hours straight, and

then somebody asks you on what.

What did you do when you've been
working for 24 hours straight?

You're like on everything.

What do you mean?

You can't enunciate it.

You can't say, oh, well, I did
job for customer a for company

C for so and so B for whatever
you can't list those things out.

Oh, I did payroll.

I did this administrative
tasks, blah, blah, blah.

So you can't communicate effectively.

So that's one thing that I, a piece
of advice I definitely learned is you

got to document what you're doing.

And then the second is that.

And this is just a problem that I
personally had your family might, may not

be this way, but when I had things that
I wanted to accomplish professionally,

my family didn't hear that necessarily
from Evan, the professional, they

heard that from Evan, you know, my
brother, Evan, my son, Evan, whoever,

like, oh, that's just Evan, like he,
he doesn't know where we don't really

have to, you know, Go into a new market.

We don't have to think about what
our geographic boundaries are.

We don't have to do that kind of stuff.

So, and what I,

there's definitely a lot
of interesting dynamics in

family business.

Oh yeah.

Well, and, and, you know, this
was another good opportunity that

happened though, was for one, a
mistake that I made was I let myself.

I think a lot of shop operators are used
to kind of like, if you think about the

tachometer on your vehicle, they're used
to operating in the yellow and the red.

They, they don't know what it
feels like to just go 2000 RPMs.

Cause they're going like
6, 000 all the time.

And I was definitely that way.

So I didn't know what my
limit was until I hit it.

And then when I hit it, it was like.

Okay, and the basically what I
said to my family was I can be

in this business or I can be in
this family, but I can't do both.

And what I'm going to decide to do
is leave this business because I

think in the long run, it's going to
be better for all of us if I just.

Leave this, don't take any
resentment, don't take anything.

You guys have the tools that you need
and I'll go find something else to do.

And that was really a hard
pill for them to swallow.

Um, that I think it, you know, we
did talk again, but it took a year

before it was like, okay, let's have
Christmas, you know, let's, let's

actually have these conversations.

We couldn't talk about business
for, I think at least six years.

Just because just the hard feelings
that were there, but me leaving that.

I was like, okay, I'm cold turkey leaving.

What am I going to go do?

Just so happened.

I knew of another sign business,
kind of where I came from.

Uh, and they actually
weren't in signs at the time.

They were only in, it was, I
knew them from doing print media.

So they printed newspapers and
magazines and stuff like that.

And I was like, Hey, I see that
you guys are trying to stand

up a wide format department.

Well, I ran my own business
for a couple of years.

Do you need somebody
to help you with that?

And they're like, absolutely come in.

Uh, and that was when I felt I really
got my real introduction to working in.

A larger shop with larger customers that
right off the bat, you know, we had a 5 by

10 flatbed direct to substrate UV printer.

We had a 5 by 10 belt fed Kongsberg.

Um, I had another, uh, CNC
that was in a back room.

You know, we had our work tables.

We, we were, uh.

3M, not just certified installers,
but 3M certified shop so that

we could bring our vehicles in.

And so I learned all of the procedures
and I learned every single machine to

the point that I think it took me three
months before I could have operators

on those machines, instead of me doing
everything and just like, Hey, push this

button, do this, drag this over here.

That's all you need to do.

I've already got everything designed.

Like, I just need you to hit go.

And that was.

Another, again, great opportunity that
you get to work with this big equipment

that I certainly couldn't afford and
work with these big customers that it's

like, Hey, you know, these are awesome
jobs, things that we don't think about.

One of my favorite ones was
actually, uh, have you ever

seen the ice vending machines?

So, so there was a local company
that their worldwide distribution,

they manufactured their cabinets out
of Lexan and they were getting this

printed somewhere in like Minnesota.

We're in Georgia.

And I was like, all right,
well, what's your lead time?

Well, about a month, I was like,
what if I said, you know, we're

right down the street, we could do
the same exact product for you and

we could get it to you in five days.

And they're like, that would be amazing.

I was like, including, we're
not just going to print it.

We're going to CNC route it to your spec.

So all you got to do is just take this
piece, put it on your assembly line.

That's it.

Every time you sell.

An ice machine, we are giving you
something that goes into your process.

So now we're a part of your
manufacturing and they're like,

absolutely, let's go, let's do it.

And that was, you know,
that's a great account.

That's that alone is like
a 300, 000 a year account.

And anyway, it's again, just
great, awesome opportunities.

And I want to stop talking for a second.

If you had any questions.

Yeah, no, no.

Like one of the questions that I
had was like, did they have all this

equipment, like waiting when you
came in or like you helped through

the procurement of all of that?

Or what did that look

like?

No, I wasn't there for procurement, which
I think was actually probably a good

thing, because I don't think at that
point, after only being in for two years.

I had enough experience to really
tell them what they would need to

do and how they would need to scale.

And that's why I think it was a
great learning opportunity for me,

because I went from, okay, roll
to roll shop, which we were good.

I mean, uh, you would think small
South Georgia agricultural town.

There's not that many signs to do.

There's a lot of logistics, like a
lot of trucks, a lot of, so like we

were, I would print sometimes, you
know, six rolls of media at a time.

You know, that's how many roles we
were printing, like just for a order.

Um, and that's because these things
need to go on semi trailers or whatever.

So go from that environment to, okay,
now we're thinking about how can

I manufacture these parts that go
into somebody's production process?

I don't think I had a good
understanding of that before.

I arrived at that next company, but the
experience that I gained from learning

and, and, you know, to what Peter was
talking about every morning, I'm in

there, you know, cleaning all the heads
physically on that UV printer, making

sure there's like, I knew, and you
know, this, if you work in a shop, you

know, what your equipment sounds like.

Like I can't, I still have, like,
I think I have PTSD from, from

the platter that I used to run.

Like I would hear it move.

And I just like, whatever I was
doing, I, it was like an instinct.

It's like a baby crying or something.

You just like drop everything and go run.

Like, is it about to destroy my print?

Ruined this, uh,

you know, this 3, 000 job.

That's something I have to
waste three hours reprinting it.

Yes.

I mean, it's still to the point
that I haven't used that, that

same Imaki plotter and like.

I don't know, eight years.

I still, like, if I hear a graph
tech move a certain way, I'm

like, Oh my God, is the print.

Okay.

Like I've, um, yeah,

I've done that so many times.

Like back in the old shop, we, we actually
did not only signage, but apparel as well.

So like one area, we had like
a 60 by a hundred building.

We had embroidery in one area.

I felt like I needed a pair of
roller skates because like you

could hear something going on with
one of the embroidery machines.

It was all the way across the shop.

And then, hey, like, you
know, you turn around and then

you've got the flatbed printer.

You know, you hear something
weird going on there.

And we had ACET that had a, a
belt that would walk up and down.

So like if you were doing
150 or a hundred feet.

Of a banner material,
you had to babysit it.

So they've been there for sure.

That's crazy.

No, that's well.

And yeah, I guess getting to that,
that so the experience level,

like what you're talking about
using those pieces of equipment.

It gives you so much knowledge that you
couldn't even really think about until

you started working that like, okay, not
only do I need to know how each one of

these pieces of equipment is supposed
to work, but like, how do they fail?

What do they sound like
when that's happening?

How do I really run these things?

And that's the kind of experience
that I got working in a bigger shop

that was bankrolled by somebody else.

And eventually, again, like I mentioned,
sort of at the beginning, having the

opportunity to grow out of places,
which I don't, I don't burn bridges.

I don't do that.

So it was always leaving with good
relationships that I could still have

referral partners as I moved along.

Because that's important.

And I'll put it this way.

One of the things I thought
about when I was at that shop.

Was I was like, you know what I think
I have an opportunity here that I

could do a lot of great things at
this shop, but in what areas can I

grow like I'm good at production.

So that's an area I actually
am very good at design.

So that's an area, but like,
what are the caps on that?

Who are the designers?

I know who are the production people.

I know what, how much did they
make and what does that look like?

And then it was like, okay,
well, what about marketing?

What about sales?

And I was like, I will tell you this.

My dad has been a
salesperson my entire life.

And I always told myself I would
never, ever going to be a salesperson.

Like I do not want to do that, but
that of the options I was thinking

of, that was the only one that I was
like, Oh, you know what, if I learned

a lot about this business, that's
kind of unlimited, uncapped potential.

And it's a necessary part because
there's nothing to design and nothing

to make if you haven't sold anything.

So I took on a sales position and it was
sort of a hybrid position because when I

went to sales, also classic of sign shops.

You have very few people
that work there, right?

So you wear multiple
hats, even as an employee.

So it's like, yes, I was in
sales, but also I was still

doing all the production design.

And also I was still having to, like,
troubleshoot machines and stuff like that.

Um, and I was like, look, I...

You know, you're holding me back
from being able to go and do sales.

So I can't even focus on this job, like
to see if I'm any good at it or not.

So I ended up taking another job and
the next job was actually running a

fast signs, which was again, a unique
learning opportunity because it was small.

I want to call it like mom and
pop, kind of like what me and my

sister had where it's roll to roll.

Uh, there's, I think, including
me, four employees, but it

comes with that corporate name.

And like, what do you really
get for the franchise agreement?

Right.

What, what are your royalties paying for?

And it also allowed me the opportunity
to learn a lot more about operations and.

It's like, I knew money was important.

I knew like, oh, but we're making signs.

So we're fine.

Right.

Well, the first thing I had to do being
over operations has come in, look at

the numbers, check out what's happening.

What is the health of the
business by the numbers?

I think a lot of people that work
for themselves or have their own

business, they miss out on that.

You know, you hear a lot of like
idioms and one of those idioms is that

money is the lifeblood of a business.

And people hear that and they're
like, no, that's not true.

I am, I'm the heart of the business.

Like what I make, my product
is the heart of the business.

And I'm here to tell you, no, it's not.

A good thing to call out for sure.

I mean, you can have the, you're
the best person in the world with

the greatest product in the world.

If you're not selling it, if money's
not flowing, like that's, that's dead.

That's a dead business.

So, and I'm

sure like Peter, like you could speak
to this, like, how many guys do you

talk to that are like, Hey, I see every
day, the volume of work going out.

And I know, and I see the numbers, but
at the end of the year, when it, when

I look at the bottom line, it's like,
where, where's that actual profit that I

thought we were making the entire year?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, look, I mean, I actually
get that a lot, but there's

usually an answer to that there.

It's not that it's, uh,
it's not that it's gone.

It's not that it's a way, you
know, it's, there is a reason for

where all of that money had gone.

You know, we need to, is it your pricing?

Are you charging enough for your time?

You know, a lot of times that
that right there is, is where

most people go to, but actually.

I have a, I have a very interesting
topic to talk about here, and this is

something that is kind of on this path
here of where does all that money go?

Where does all that time go?

So I was in a seminar recently and.

We were, it was a home services
seminar and quite honestly, home

services is probably 1 of the
easiest areas to sell hours.

Okay?

Because, you know, it takes
you 5 hours to do a repair.

This is our hourly rate.

It's great.

You know, it's super, super
easy math, uh, in a lot of areas

that that makes a lot of sense.

But what happens is.

Is that in the sign industry, because
we don't quite have a service that

takes certain hours, you have to
calculate how many hours a project is

going to take in different departments.

Right?

So, in all in a lot of areas, in a
lot of stops, it has nothing to do

with the knowledge of your billable
rate, but maybe not charging.

The right amount of hours.

So when you're talking about
profitability and like, I'm

wasting all this time and I'm okay.

Well, what's your hourly rate?

It's 200 an hour.

Okay.

Well, at least, you know, that right.

But how many hours did
you sell for this project?

Right.

And how many hours did you
actually work on this project?

And that there, right there, that
difference is definitely probably where

a lot of that profit goes out the window.

Like, you're working your butt off.

You think you made a fair
price, but you actually took

longer to complete the project.

And that's a hidden, it's
a hidden metric, right?

It's a hidden metric.

It's not going to show
up on any kind of KPIs.

It's not going to show up on
any type of job costing report.

It's going to say you have to kind
of keep track of that on your own.

Right?

There's no software.

Shopbox doesn't do this.

Corbridge doesn't do this.

There's nobody that's going to say,
well, we sold 30 hours and it took 22.

Okay, you great.

You've made a surplus of 8 hours or.

You know, what, what is that Delta?

What were you over?

Were you under?

And in a lot of places, people
are selling based off price.

They're, they're not
asserting their value.

They're thinking this is our market value.

This is our market price and.

Okay, if it took you, if you took your
shop six hours, but it could take another

shop three hours with a different type
of machine, one that you don't have to

hold onto the banner as it comes out, you
know, if it comes out, you know, maybe

they have a faster printing machine.

Maybe they have five people that can, you
know, hand grommet and seem a banner in.

40 minutes where it take you two hours.

You know, I don't know.

I'm, I'm making all this up as I go.

But the fact is, is that the minutia
of those details is often where people

get the answer to their problem, which
is I'm working my ass off, but I have.

10 at the end of the day, uh, I
can barely get guests with this.

What was it all worth it?

So that's usually the,
that's the biggest takeaway.

It's not often the price
that you're charging.

It's not often the
markup on the materials.

I mean, that's all easy stuff.

It's often the hours that you're
selling is not enough to take

on the scope of the project.

Yeah,

definitely a challenge in the operations.

Well, I was going to say,
I definitely see that.

And one of the great opportunities
that I had going to fast signs and

you hit on it is actually, I think at
that time, they, that was at the same

time they were making the switch from
their previous ERP to core bridge.

And so I set up core bridge for fat for
that particular fast science franchise.

And that was the first time that
everything I knew that I was working

with my sister about, Hey, we need to
be tracking this, this, this, and this.

So we know where's our money really going.

Well, now it was, I was working with a
system that I was building out to do that.

And I mean, there, you're right.

There's a lot of stuff that's not in
core bridge, but there was a lot of

stuff that I could dive into, like,
Hey, you know, we own the building.

Great, but we're still paying on it.

So, you know, this printer takes
up X number of square feet.

And we have X number available.

So right away, even if it's doing nothing,
even if it's unplugged, it costs money

just sitting there, taking up space
and then, you know, looking at the

real actual costs, things that people
gloss over, like, oh yeah, I don't,

I don't consider ink one of my costs.

I'm like, no man, like depending on what
printer you're running and how many layers

of ink you're doing, or it's like 12 cents
a square foot, 32 cents a square foot, it

depends, you know, um, and it's important
because it adds up and then that was.

One of the things I implemented
immediately with the staff there was

I did my job to make sure on the back
end without them having to do anything

that we understood what our costs were.

So it's like, great, you sold
a banner for a hundred bucks.

That's awesome.

How much did it actually cost us?

And that one point that
you're talking about.

I, it was, I had to implement
my own system to track time.

How many jobs do we
actually get out in a day?

Like how long did it actually take?

And so I would pick jobs.

I was like, look, I'm tracking these jobs.

I'm going to track every job this week.

I'm going to, I want to time
in and time out on every single

time somebody touches this.

So then you have an overall time, right?

Like, Oh yeah, it took us a
week for the job to get out.

But how many hours did we
actually put into the actual job?

Um, and so, yeah, that was huge.

The other huge thing that I
will say, like, yeah, everybody

in their businesses, they got
different ways they want to run it.

If you want to really know what's
going on, you got to be willing

to stop what you're doing and
take the time to really dive in.

And a lot of times with an owner, with
the owner mentality, you're stressed.

You're thinking about how
do I make the next paycheck?

How do I get the next sale?

You're like.

Figuring out where your costs are.

That feels like minutiae.

You feel like I don't have time
for that, but it's important stuff.

It's like, are you carrying
like 50 percent margin with you

when you could be carrying 80%?

You know, like, how do you make more
money doing the same amount of work?

And is it worth looking at that?

In my, in my case, a lot of times, yes.

It's worth looking at how efficiently
are you making your money?

Because if you can work the same
amount for 100 as you were working

for 50, like, make the 100.

Agreed.

Now a huge part of working for that
particular franchise, looking at the

numbers, what was great was even though
a lot of stuff was missing, it was

very obvious, it was my introduction
to, I guess, uh, what we say, forensic

accounting, where it's like, oh,
somebody's stealing and they're stealing

a lot and the great thing about working
with a franchise like that is that you

have people that are supposed to come
and talk to you about how does your

store perform compared to other stores.

How much are you selling?

Like what kind of products, what are
you selling them for versus other

stores, all that kind of stuff.

So I had all the metrics of how a
fast science was supposed to operate.

It was to

run.

Yeah.

And that's like the business
development rep, right?

That's right.

So right.

Peter, Peter's a former
fast science guy as well.

He actually built it and sold a franchise.

Two fast signs and then had a fast signs
and I'm sure he'll buy another fast

signs.

So you get it and it's, and
depending on how your rep is

and how your market is, there's,
there's some back and forth, right?

Like there's, for instance, I was
told, Hey, you need to go up to this

square foot pricing on this product.

And I was like, no, I've been in
this market long enough that I know

what, this is what people are buying.

And this is what we're
comfortable selling.

What I am willing to do is make
sure that we do it efficiently.

So for instance, something that a lot of
shop owners, and I, I don't know if it's

a pride thing, or they don't realize this
is an option is that you can outsource.

You don't have to do everything
yourself with your equipment.

For instance, let's say like a hundred
percent of your workforce is working

on this job for your biggest customer.

Meanwhile, you have other
customers that still want stuff.

Well, guess what?

You don't have to work second
shifts and third shifts to

try to accommodate everybody.

Sometimes the cheaper solution
might be, just buy it from somebody

else and sell it to your customer.

Make a smaller margin on that, but
you're gonna make more money and

have a happier customer than if you
were trying to do it yourself and

overworking yourself and your employees.

That is an option.

But anyway, it was pretty easy to step
into this particular franchise and see

like, okay, we're underperforming by
about 70 percent compared to other stores.

Uh, a huge part of this
is somebody stealing.

Um, so we're getting rid of that.

We're doing employee turnover.

I got very, very lucky.

I was able to get a great, uh,
in, in fast signs, that front desk

person, we call them inside sales.

So it had a great inside
sales person that.

And I will say this, a lot of my
restaurant training came in great at

a fast science because I already could
speak corporate and I understood when

you're on, when you're on a grill line,
you have grill operators and they're

each stationed in this particular spot.

They can all do everything, but if you
have somebody in slot one, it doesn't make

sense for them to come over to slot four.

And then do something for that person.

They can work in two, but not
in three or four, because then

you're losing their efficiency by
taking them too many slots away.

So in my fast signs operation, it
was like, look, you're inside sales.

You're going to help build customers.

Talk to them.

I'll let you get a little bit
into design and understanding how

manufacturing stuff works, but I
don't ever want you in manufacturing.

All I ever want you to do is be here.

Taking care of customers and
possibly assisting with design.

The designer, they're station two.

It's like, okay, you're going
to answer the phone sometimes.

That's just the thing
that's going to happen.

I know you're not going to be as
good as our front desk person,

but it is going to happen.

You're not going to manufacture,
but you're going to know

how to run these printers.

So that if the manufacturing
person can't do it, you can.

I don't want you installing.

That's not your job.

You stay right here.

Same way manufacturing person.

All right.

You're going to understand
how to run these printers.

It's not your main job.

Your main job is to put the science
together, you know, and it keep going

down the line that way to maintain
these efficiencies and personnel.

Um, and what really, though, made it a
successful franchise was going from being

completely in house to having me, once
I had the team set up, that freed up my

time to go be an outside salesperson.

Then at that point, it was
like, okay, great, we're running

what we need to run in house.

We're manufacturing the things that we're
good at manufacturing, that we make a

high margin on, like banners and vinyl.

So we have installation services that
we're comfortable with doing, like we're

comfortable with doing these types of
wraps or these types of decals, not every

wrap, not every decal, and then I'm able
to set up my vendor list of, all right,

all right, who's a good wholesaler that
I got somebody because of the name that

they were like, Hey, I need to have.

I don't make sign cabinets like I don't,
I don't put, you know, electronics.

I don't do ballast.

I don't have a crane.

I don't do metal fab.

Like we're not set up for
that, but I'm going to sell it.

And then those projects, of course,
that's when I really understood.

Okay.

You have different projects
with different lead times.

So.

All right, I'm going

to I'm going to stop you right there.

I'm going to stop you.

Yeah.

All right.

Uh, a lot of times when we bring
on guests here, they're super

excited, but they they talk.

They talk.

They talk and I have so many notes here.

I want to stop here because
this is this is an interest.

This is a, uh, this is an
interesting piece of the puzzle.

Now, personally.

I'm vibing you right here, Evan.

Not, not, not to the point

I want to date you.

Okay, okay.

Maybe if I get my mustache back.

I'll leave the mustache talk for you

and Brian.

You guys got, you

guys got some hell of
a stache going there.

But, um, for me, you would make an
excellent business partner for me.

Right?

Like, you have this, this do
whatever it takes mentality.

I think you're more of a hunter
than a farmer, but I would like

to, I think we're going to hear
more about your farming abilities

here in just a bit in just a bit.

But you do come off as that.

Um, never say no type of guy, right?

Never say no type of guy.

We're going to find a solution.

Like, you're a solutions to me and I, and
I love that because that, you know, I, I

echo that I am a solutions hunter as well.

But I want to ask you a question.

Thank you.

You talked about, you just mentioned,
like, you don't have a crane, you

don't get into, like, metal fab, or,
you know, whatever, and, and, that's

not, okay, so I'll, I'll, I'll put
my FastSigns hat on for a minute.

That is not the FastSigns model, right?

The majority of their centers, they
don't practice this area of sign making.

They use their vendor networks, they
outsource, you know, I was there,

I've been there, and I've done that.

But for somebody like yourself,
I'm actually very genuinely

honest to hear your opinion.

I don't even know which
way it's going to go here.

But indulge me.

Have you ever thought about
getting a full fledged shop going?

You know, knowing that you could jump
out of vinyl into fab, because you

are in that area of like, if I get
that somebody that's going to ask.

I'm going to do it.

I'm going to say yes, you know,
I'm going to do whatever I can.

I'm going to find a
vendor to outsource it.

But if you do enough of that, does
that transition your mindset into

thinking maybe, you know, maybe should
I be getting a break and maybe a

CNC machine, maybe getting a higher
and one or two more guys, maybe

whatnot.

Well, so yeah, to your point, then I would
say anybody in any business that you start

out and you don't really have anything
right, your ground roots and you think

about something you want to get into.

Well, that's a high investment cost
to buy the means of manufacturing.

So if you don't have that means
at first you're vending and you're

outsourcing, but it's important in
my mind to know, as soon as you start

that part of your business plan should
be, how long am I going to vend?

Before it hits a point where it makes
sense for me to manufacture in house,

but you got to understand the cost of
it, like what you were talking about,

how much does the personnel cost?

How much does the equipment cost?

How much does the facility cost?

And what are the other unknowns?

Like, what's your buffer range
for what's going to go wrong?

What kind of maintenance you got to do?

All that kind of stuff.

So now.

To answer the question more directly,
of course, yes, I've thought about it

because I am a very analytic person and
I like, I'm one of those weird people

that, you know, you drive down the road
and somebody's like, oh, you know, it'd be

really good right there, a popcorn shop.

Then I'm like, okay, and I
immediately in my head, I'm like,

okay, what's the business plan?

For a popcorn shop.

How does it work?

What's required to do that?

What is the market like?

What is the support?

Who else is already doing it?

You know, you think of your
SWOT analysis, blah, blah, blah.

But this is all stuff that I didn't know
before I got into the sign business.

The sign industry has Forced me to learn
all of this for me to be successful.

And I think a lot of your questions too.

No,

you got it.

You taught you what being in this
industry taught me that it is important

to really understand your business.

Not to think that, you know,
everything to be self critical.

To be able to take advice,
to look around you and think

about how can I do this better?

You're not the king of the hill.

There's always opportunities to be better.

You know, I love watching sports
documentaries and not because

I'm a huge sports person, but
because I do have some of that.

Comp that competitiveness in myself.

And it's not necessarily that I
want to knock somebody off the top.

It's more for me, how do I get
to be better than they are?

What is it that they're doing
that makes them so successful?

And how can I do that?

And what is it?

And what you're talking about
with about find the solution.

Yes, I do that for my customers, but
I have to do that for myself too.

Like be willing to say like,
okay, I was doing it wrong.

I had the wrong mindset.

I talked to my employees the wrong way.

I didn't have effective communication.

I thought that what my highest profitable
product was was it's just incorrect.

Like my best product is
actually this other thing.

You know, I thought this was a great
way to make money off the installations.

Turns out no, because it's taking
my resources from somewhere else.

You know, it's being able to really.

Number one, analyze, watch
what's going on, measure it.

And number two, be willing to
accept the data that you're given.

Like it's not working.

I was doing it wrong.

And then figure out the solution.

What, what do you have to do next?

And sometimes that takes.

An advisor that takes
somebody from outside, right?

That takes somebody in a network.

Sometimes the answers are obvious.

In my case, I was lucky enough to
being somebody that had no, like,

let me just put this out there.

I don't have a college degree.

Okay.

I went to high school.

I graduated from high school.

I was told I needed to go to college.

All I got from college
was pretty much debt.

I had to start working to provide
for a family that I wanted.

And, but that doesn't mean that just
because you didn't go to college,

some of the best people that I worked
with, they are some of the most

stereotypical Southern country boys
you would ever know, but they know

how to run their business efficiently.

They.

They have internalized the numbers matter.

And so they look at it every day, but I
hope that gets to some of what you were

talking about, Peter, as far as growing,
that was the next step in my journey.

That actually I left FastSigns,
that FastSigns franchise to go work

for one of the vendors that I was
selling for, because I was selling

so many lighted cabinets and digital
displays that they were like,

you have got to come work for us.

And they took me on as a business
development manager, but I mean,

you know, I don't burn bridges.

I, you know, I, we left on, you
know, good business terms, you

know, it made sense that yeah.

The franchise wasn't able to offer
me what the other company was.

Hey, I still referred business.

I look, I don't talk bad about
this places I worked for.

And then, so I worked for this company
and you went from, I went from working

including me, five, five people to
working in a manufacturing science

shop where we had 40, 40 employees.

And, you know, we were at the time,
I think when we came on about 5.

5 million a year gross, and I was
not even a salesperson, but I think

that that year that I worked there,
I sold a million and that was because

of the opportunities that were there.

I learned what, what my skills are
to your point about being a solutions

finder, like the hunter versus the farmer.

I love being a farmer.

That's where I feel most comfortable.

However, my boss at that job, he
told me, he gave me this analogy.

He's like, Evan, you're like one of
those Prairie plains hunters that

you see something that's out there
like 400 yards away, and you're

going to dedicate all your time and
your focus to hit that one target.

And he was like, I am
more like a rabbit hunter.

I see something move next to me and I
shoot it with a shotgun and I, it's done.

I got it.

He's like, but I used to not understand
the value of somebody like you until

you sold the biggest job we have ever
sold in the history of the company.

And that's from taking the
risk, talking to people, finding

solutions, not no, we can't do that.

Like, Hmm, let's figure
out a way to do that.

And so it was fantastic
experience working in that.

And if for no other reason, I love
going and talking to the guys in the

shop every day, I would walk back
there, make sure that they understood

like, yeah, I'm on the sales force.

Yeah, I'm technically your boss,
but what I want is to figure out.

What do I need to sell that's
going to make your job easier?

Because ultimately, I want to give the
customer a great product that they love.

So I'm not going to give
you something to design and

manufacture that makes no sense.

Like, let's figure out how can
we work together as a team.

I, it was.

A great opportunity.

Sorry.

I'll leave some space there.

You're right.

I talk way too much.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No, no, you're good, man.

It's uh, like, I, I've just like listening
to you go on your story and it's a,

like, you have hit like every type of
shop, every position within the shop.

Uh, so it like carries through like, yeah.

So So there's only two more steps, right?

Is

this, is that the last shop?

So, uh, well, great shop.

I, um, I really, one thing that I
still have to learn more about that

I feel like affected me at that
shop was, uh, imposter syndrome.

Like I said, I feel like I made
a very steep rise very quickly.

I felt like, you know, no degree.

And here I am with guys that have
been in the business 20 years and

I'm the business development manager.

Like I've been in this at that point,
like seven, like, why, why am I here?

What am I doing?

Yeah.

I'm making sales, but it just,
in my mind, I didn't feel like I

really belonged there, like I was
supposed to be there, that I was

doing the work I was supposed to do.

I tried kind of telling myself, you
know, it's a family owned business.

I'm not a family member.

It's, you know, I'm going to end up being
like other production managers that I'd

seen before, where they work 30 years
and then they get injured and it's like,

okay, well, thanks for all your work.

Bye.

You know, I, I, but I, at the
end of the day, I can say that

they did feel like family.

I honestly cared about
everybody that I worked with.

They cared about me, but I don't know
what else to define it other than possibly

imposter syndrome that I felt like I
just didn't fit in and an opportunity

was presented to me to, uh, take a
minute man franchise and get them into

wide format and it was in the same
market that I'd already been working in.

I knew all the numbers after, especially
after working at a fast signs.

Like I knew exactly.

Hey, this is the kind of
equipment we need to get.

This is how much staff we need.

This is how much they're going to cost.

This is how much the equipment costs.

This is with your brand and
you taking things in house.

This is how much money we can
expect to make in the first year.

I had the whole, the whole plan.

And we, I went to that.

We were on target.

We started with roll to roll.

Um, we started off site because
there wasn't enough room.

For us to be at the main location.

My goal was I wanted to do
160k gross that first year.

We did 180 and that was with only
me as the wide format employee.

So I was.

The salesperson, the marketer,
the designer, the production,

the installer, like yes,

doing all of it now, like coming into
this one, did you like negotiate for

equity or like, were you having those
conversations because, and I bring this up

because like some people in the industry.

Are just not made to be owners.

I talked to a lot of people that
like, they feel like they have to

be something they're not in order to
achieve like success or be financially

stable, which, you know, it's, it's
kind of like a limiting factor kind

of goes back to that imposter syndrome
of like, Hey, I own this shop.

And because I employ five people,
I feel like I have to be the

operations manager as well.

Even though I'm not good
at that, I don't like it.

And, you know, I, maybe I'm It's
like, not so good with employees, but

yeah, at this point, are you, are you
negotiating for equity in any of these?

Like, is your, as your
mind on ownership at this

point, yeah, it definitely is.

And what we ultimately ended up doing
was basically kind of like a, a handsome

looking commission package, uh, based off
of certain numbers and growth projections.

I will tell you that looking
at just the numbers, the shop

that I left to go do this.

Uh, I used that, their counter offer
as my metric for, okay, what am I

trying to achieve at this new venture?

And I want to achieve it
within the first two years.

Um, and for me, the offer at the shop
that I left was well into six figures.

And so I was like, okay,
so go into this new thing.

Like, here's my base pay.

Here's the commission schedule.

Is it achievable?

Yes.

Uh, what I did not account for though,
Is that when you are not the owner,

meaning you are not the one that
is ultimately making the financial

decisions that I found a new trap.

I'll just say that I found a new
trap that I didn't know existed.

And that trap was, Evan
is a really great worker.

He can run five of these
machines at the same time.

So why don't we just buy more machines
and let's make Evan run more stuff.

Now, what they did not understand,
I could not get them to understand.

Was for me, it was like I was a truck
driver and they bought another truck.

Like, how am I supposed to drive
two trucks at the same time?

Like I was my, my output potential
was capped because I was, I, even when

we grew a little bit more and we got
a direct substrate machine, we got a

new facility, we got a flatbed CNC.

We still had the roll to roll stuff.

Of course, I was still,
I did get one employee.

We found a unicorn.

He was magical.

He was amazing.

He had some design experience, had grown
up in a print shop with his grandparents,

so he knew the work that was required
and he caught on, like, immediately I

could tell, I could show him everything
about the machines, but even then I

was, I was on a leash, but this leash
was not a leash of, no, I don't want

you to go out and sell to those people
or no, I don't want you to go spend

money on marketing the leash was.

We can only produce so much because we
are capped by our personnel and we are

not willing to hire more personnel.

So that means my face is out there.

The customers know me and then it's
up to me to produce everything, but

I'm not the one calling the shots.

So that's why.

And you're, you're doing the
selling and the production and

like, yeah, there's only so much of

that to go around, obviously.

And I started thinking about leaving, but
I wanted to negotiate everything first.

And I was like, look, what would make
sense for the company is actually take

me out of anything to do with production.

Like I could be, you know, an overall
department manager to review performance.

And look at numbers, but really I
need to be out selling so that that

will really make our company grow.

Unfortunately, the offer that
I got for that was, well, if

you're outside sell selling, I
want you to be commissioned only.

And if you're commissioned
only, I want you making 10%.

And I was like, that is ludicrous.

I could literally be your wholesale
customer and make at least 40%.

Why would I work for you for 10%?

So I was just like, okay, I've got
what really did it for me, though,

is I care about my customers a lot.

I don't ever want to tell a customer
I'm going to give this to you tomorrow

and then not be able to do it.

And that's what was happening.

I was being held back to that point.

And I was like, okay, it's time to go.

And so that's.

That gets us caught up to now.

I, and that's like, uh, I see
that so often it is like sales is

that's, that is the business, right?

Like I talked to a lot of owners that
like, Hey, I'm not a salesperson.

I don't really want to do sales,
but unfortunately, like if you don't

have a good sales rep and they're
not involved on like a deeper level

where they're incentivized to go
sell, like, who does that fall to?

Like it falls to you, like
you've got to get yourself out

there, uh, whether you like it

or not, you've got to be so right.

And so that goes back to what I said.

I never wanted to be a salesperson.

I used to legitimately believe that by
just having a good product and people

receiving that product, that's enough.

And sometimes it is
sometimes that is enough.

But what's going to make you really
successful that you're not worrying

about your paycheck this week, because
you've got the next two months covered.

That's the outside sales force.

That's making sure that people are
actually going out and grabbing

that market, because we know it,
all of us here on this podcast,

we know it, that somebody, a
church is like, I need a banner.

They're not looking for like
local sign shop near me.

No, they're looking for church banners.

That's what they're looking for.

And if they don't know you.

Then they're not going to
know to go talk to you.

They don't even know that you exist.

So, like, you have to have somebody going
out there to represent you, or else...

You're gonna forever just be on that grind
where you're like, I'm worried about am

I gonna be able to pay myself this week?

Am I be able to cover my shop this week?

Like so I will put this in point
to now for the first time ever.

I am doing no manufacturing in house
I'm doing some installations because

I'm a pretty good vinyl installer
and there's money to be made at

that But 100 percent it's pretty
much like project management for me.

So right now my company exists off
of primarily just me selling and

managing product projects and that I
wouldn't know how to do any of that

if I hadn't gone through all the steps
that I've been through previously.

So I operate as a one man company.

The same way I do with like a 40 man
team that I have all the same structures

in place that I consider, I call it to
myself, I call it dummy proofing it.

So it's like, all right, Evan,
you idiots here, this is what

you're supposed to be doing today.

You know, like I have those meetings with
myself every morning and every afternoon.

What do you have to do today?

What did you accomplish today?

What do you got to work on tomorrow?

What's your schedule like?

You know, I do every single day and
I check myself throughout the day

Like it's just necessary the same
way that I would with an employee.

I just have to and sorry peter
You were making some motion.

So I all right.

Hey, no, no.

Yeah, I think he was giving
you like the like This is it.

I

like it.

I think Personally for me this book never
leaves my side, you know, so The pages

of pages of notes throughout the day,
task lists that never leaves my bedside.

So the day before it's email getting sent
out, payroll being done, bookkeep, uh,

today is the 1st, November, when we're
doing this podcast, today's the 1st.

So this morning it was reconcile
my bank accounts, you know, from,

from October, classify all the
expenses, you know, make sure all

of our sales reports are accurate.

You know, there's.

There's a lot that a business owner has to
go through and I'm so happy to hear that,

that Evan, you're, you've experienced the
employee side with, I could, you know, I'm

going to jump into this business side now.

And you're still learning that there's
more that to a business owner's

life than what employees see, right?

What employees see is that they
may say this guy's making millions

and yet, you know, you're the last
person to get paid as an owner.

I want to kind of transition
this conversation a little bit.

I want to learn a little
bit about your methods.

I, I, I personally, I've, uh, like
I've said before, I think that

you're like the exact type of person.

I look to partner with getting
into the sign business.

So I'm, I'm eager to hear
your responses to just.

You know, what are your methods
to getting new business?

What, what, how do you go about
that digitally organically, you

know, are you hitting the pavement?

I want to hear your methods for those
sign shop owners out there that are either

listening or viewing in, you know, what
is it that they can do to start making,

you know, a monumental leap in sales

as well.

So that gets into my
style of sales, which.

Is by default a farming, so I do
still hold a belief that if I.

Grow naturally.

And by naturally, what I mean is
with referral based partnerships.

So one thing that I didn't talk about
is business networking international.

I was the president of a local
chapter of BNI, and I, that was where

I really learned the importance of.

Working with other businesses
to refer business to each other.

So just imagine kind of creating a
club where, Hey, this person's an

accountant, they don't need any signs.

But I talk to other businesses
all the time because other

businesses always buy signs.

So when they say, Hey, do
you know a good accountant?

Guess what?

I'll be like, yes, my guy right here.

And then guess what?

In turn, Your guy is the accountant.

When a new business comes in and
says, Hey, do you know a sign guy?

Like, absolutely.

He's right over here.

Let me tell you the best
sign guy that I know.

Now, what that's transitioned into is
that now I am, uh, I'm active in three

chambers inside of a geographic area
that I'm comfortable providing to.

And I say that because.

After having drive, you know,
you drive cover a certain area.

There's only so much that you can
really do and get to in a day.

And between these two counties, it's
all the business that I need right now.

That's for sure.

Now in one of these three chambers, I
actually hold a board seat and I run a

group that we call the leads group and
it's a referral based networking group.

And what that is, is again, just getting a
group of people together, educating them.

On Hey, this is how you become referral
partners and guess what I have the

opportunity for every single one of them
to see me not only not only as an expert

in referral based networking, but as an
expert in signage and they see me every

single meeting and I will tell you that
me quote unquote growing naturally.

Which is every time I'm in a
business situation, I just show up.

I am myself.

I always, always get at least one request
for quote at any event that I go to.

And it's not because I'm asking for them.

It's because people know,
like Evan is the sign guy.

So I'm going to ask it.

I like my birthday was last month and.

Some other people saw like,
Oh, happy birthday, Evan.

I was getting messages.

Oh, I need a sign.

And it was, it was just like, so, and
all that came from just, I tried to

make myself known when you first start.

It's like, who are you?

And you're like, Oh, I'm Evan.

I make signs.

And then I just said it.

Every single time it took at least a
year before then everybody was like,

Oh, Evan, the sign, I would literally
get stopped walking down the street.

Like you're the sign guy, right?

I need something for my business.

And that came from it.

That was the mustache.

That was how the mustache
actually started.

I was like, you know, I need a gimmick.

I need something that
people were recognizing.

Boy, did they recognize it?

But I mean, so that came from, I
found, I learned about like, what

is my kind of marketing, right?

And now, especially when I
took the leap into, all right,

now I'm my own business again.

What I thought going into this,
okay, you know, what I really

want is to have an online.

Like web based sales platform, which I
still want, but I thought that was going

to be the primary source of my income.

It's not, it's not at all.

I found out because I've worked so
much on showing up places in person,

that's where I'm highest chance of
converting a sale and the sales happen.

If I'm showing up and I'm talking to
somebody, I'm not even considering, is

this a qualified lead or not, because I
want to say this, like I've tracked it.

So far, more than 90 percent
of people that I talked to

considered leads, they convert.

So doing all of the marketing ahead
of time has meant that if I'm talking

to somebody, it's because they
want to buy before I even show up.

And that comes from.

Mm,

it's a key distinction there.

Is that, and like most of these customers
that you're dealing with, are they.

Serious business owners or like, you know,
people that are starting new businesses,

like, do you, do you have like a good
feel for like what the percentages or

how it breaks out?

So I want to say it's both.

And that's why I started getting
more involved with, uh, economic

development in the area.

So, I mean, like if you, you know, we've
all done it, we've been on jobs for

a new school that's going up, right.

If you consider the cost of
that school, like say it's a 10

million school, the signs, like.

Are almost like inconsequential, right?

It's like maybe 50 grand worth of signs,
maybe 20, depending on what they need.

If there's always an
afterthought as well, exactly.

There's not a sign
schedule in the blueprints.

You got to figure it out yourself.

You got to count the number of
doors for how many ADA signs you

need, all that kind of stuff.

So I started paying attention to who
are the, not the businesses coming in.

Who are the players in the
community that know every single

business that's coming in?

So now I know the board of commissioners.

I know, like, the
developmental authority people.

So when they can see me doing good works,
and I'm providing for the customers,

and I'm getting good feedback, because
I always thought that's very important.

I'm not just the slick back.

Hair car salesman that I'm like,
Hey, just drive it off the lot.

Cause that's all I care about.

No, no, no, no.

I need these customers to
have a good experience.

So that they tell the next person,
because not only are these businesses

and these business partners, my referral
partners, but these customers, like

these, what you might consider one off
customers, even if it was like a birthday

banner, guess what they're telling their
aunt Susie that like, Hey, when little

Joshua's birthday comes up, I know exactly
where you need to get your banner from.

It's the same way with car wash, you know,
like, Oh, you know, we got our lighted led

sign from Evan and you need to do it too.

Oh, you know what?

We went to our distributor and they
said it's going to cost X amount for us

to redo our entire space, but Evan did
it for Y and it was great experience.

And so I've had enough time in my
market now that I've gotten the

reputation, but now the effort is
constantly exerted on maintaining it.

So I guess the question about
getting new business is a lot of

times I don't personally go get it.

It's now I have a referral network that
is out there and they're also online.

We have a Facebook page that's local to
our area that somebody will say like.

Hey, I'm sorry, I'm opening up a business.

Does anybody know a good sign shop and
boom, immediately people are tagging

me like Evan, you need to go call
Evan, check out Evan, talk to Evan.

And as a good referral partner,
I do the same thing for them.

You know, it's not one sided.

I, to maintain them, you know,
everything costs something.

I'm not paying these referral
partners money, but I am

referring their businesses.

So I'm maintaining good faith with them.

I, first of all.

I love that you have
led a B and I chapter.

You hear about that culture just
in your tone and inflection here.

I mean, it's, I can't imagine
being a business owner and running

a chapter and introducing new
people and having, it's almost like

you're networking for 2 companies.

And I honestly, uh.

I, I'm thinking back to my chapter leaders
over the years, and I just remember how

like the active and engaged they were.

And like, I'm, I'm focused on
my business and I don't got time

to think about John Smith that
wants to join the B and I group.

So, I give you a lot of credit there more
than you more than, you know, in terms of

just your bandwidth, you know, and taking
and taking that on is incredible feet.

I want to kind of again, I love
your answers and they were exactly

what I was hoping for that.

You would say, because again,
you're kind of reminding you're

reminding me of me a little

bit

a little bit

somebody like this
before that just gets it.

Uh, I want to hear a little bit more.

I want to take that.

Okay.

So you're your lead generating
tactics are a little bit more.

I wouldn't, I don't want to
say quite unconventional, but I

would say they're like old school.

Oh, okay.

Old school.

Old school.

Yes.

Very much old school, but personable.

I like it.

And I, and I really like, uh, that
you're, that you're out there.

You're putting yourself out there
in places and organizations,

clubs, whether it is the BNI
group or your chamber of commerce.

But I think you've kind of
dialed that in a little bit, like

you're not traveling very far.

Uh, you're kind of able to go
from one area to the next and

people know and understand you.

I want to, I want to kind of
take that though to the mindset

that you have as an owner.

So, everybody's doing,
everybody does this differently.

Um, I have a couple of clients
that I talk to weekly about this.

And, you know, this business
is not transactional.

This business is consultative.

I think the, the sign shop owners
that understand that, that grasp that,

like Bryant and I, we talk about this
all the time in our pricing course.

We're not selling rubber ducks.

You know, we're, this is
a, a custom made project.

This is a, uh, a project that takes time
understanding, it needs communication.

It needs to understand
the goals, the vision.

What, after this is all done,
what is it gonna do for you, Mr.

Business owner?

I mean, there's a lot of consultative
nature to around what we do.

We, you know, but I want to ask
when you put on that hat and that

business owner hat and you walk into a
business, you said car washes before.

So I'll use that as an example might
be a tough example, but I'd like to see

what I like to see your answer here.

You know, do you put your how do
you put yourself in the limelight?

How do you put yourself in the
in the eyes of a car wash owner?

Again?

It could be a salon.

It could be a restaurant.

It could be anybody.

But how do you put your how
do you put them in the purview

that you're the expert that.

They should listen to you and why
they should listen to you and how

do you start building value there
with that type of owner that again,

you don't know their business.

You don't know what they do every day.

So how do you supplant
yourself in that, uh, in

that mindset?

So I'll say, and I'm just going to
kind of go through this scenario

and I'll also preface it with again.

I don't consider myself.

A salesperson necessarily, but I've found
out that I can cold call and my method to

doing that, like, let's say no referral.

I walked into a place, maybe, maybe
it's like a restaurant and I'm having

dinner there with some friends.

And then, uh, it happens to be, cause
this happens as the owner walks by

and like, Hey, how was your meal?

Hope everything's good.

It's a manager or something like that.

I was like, Hey, it's doing great.

Oh, by the way, I noticed that
like one of your signs out front

was like, somebody ran over it.

It got hit.

And I just want to let you know,
like, I'm not saying you gotta use me.

I just want to give you a card.

If you ever need an expert to talk
to somebody, like I understand

nobody knows how much signs cost.

Nobody knows how long it takes to make
them, but now, you know, somebody.

So thank you very much
for a great experience.

I really enjoyed it.

We'll be back again.

And if you need help.

Call me and I call that the Homeward
Bound method because I don't know if

you remember the movie Homeward Bound.

Of course I do.

Okay, so the cat is trying to teach
the dog how to catch a crayfish.

And he's like, how do you get it?

How do you do it?

And she's like, just act
like you don't want it.

Just like, and he's like, I don't want it.

I don't want it.

And then it bites him and it's like,
ah, so it's kind of, it's a, I almost

feel like a universal truth that in
any kind of relationship, including

the like salesperson customer
relationship, you've got to act

like you are fine without this sale.

You are cool without it.

You are established.

You are the person that is the expert.

You exude that confidence.

You are comfortable
talking to that person.

I did not used to be that way.

I promise you, I used to not at
the end of a conversation with

a potential customer, I wouldn't
say, Hey, can I quote that for you?

I would not ask that.

I asked that now, uh, I, I mean, it's so
important it's, and especially when you

talk to, I think some people, again, we
were talking about imposter syndrome.

I think some people sell
themselves too short.

They think that they're talking to a
customer and that they're down here

and the customer is up here and oh,
this, this huge successful business,

like, uh, please, sir, just, you
know, if you need anything, call me

like, no, they're a business person.

They operate in transactions.

Like, tell them, I want the
opportunity to quote this, if

you feel like I can provide that.

Would you mind giving me the opportunity?

I've never had anybody tell me no.

I've never had anybody say...

I love the ask.

Nobody has ever said no.

Like, we're not going
to give you a chance.

You

just skyrocketed to one of my
favorite guests at the very top of

the

list.

Better than Maggie's quote.

You know, I love the way you
asked for the opportunity.

I love that.

I can't, I can't, I can honestly
say I've never done that.

Uh, and I don't know many
people that have done it.

My, my old business partners don't do it.

Even my best friend who owns a sign shop
right now certainly doesn't ask like that.

So that, Bryant, when you're putting
together the title of this podcast

episode, you know what I mean?

Like, that's got to be considered
to, to be the title here.

Like.

Asking for the sale.

I have never heard anybody genuinely just

asking for the asking for
the opportunity to quote.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's it.

I mean, I get it.

If you're 100 percent in a sales position,
you're not going to make every sale.

It's not going to happen.

We know that, but.

Having the opportunity is important.

It's, you know, that old adage
that, you know, you miss a hundred

percent of the shots you don't take.

So it's like, it's your job.

Why are you not taking the shot?

It's like, do it.

It's important like that.

You're worried about your paycheck, your
employee's paycheck, you know, whatever.

Take the shot.

It's your responsibility.

It's it, it's your job to do it.

But I think once I got
past that, that was cool.

I still have a little bit of like, the
reason that I network is because I even

still feel like there are levels, but now
hanging around these people all the time

has made me feel a lot more comfortable
about like, okay, I, I am normalizing.

It's like, look, Oh, you
know, Hey, commissioner.

So, and so, Hey, that
birthday I told you about.

All three mayors of the local three
cities that I network in, they're

all happy birthday, Evan, you know?

So it's like,

That's such an important thing for me of
like, yeah, I heard you going on about,

like, Hey, the, the BNI group, like you,
you explicitly cultivated, like, I know

these are going to be business owners.

These are people I want to be around.

And you're just there showing up.

Like, that's.

That's probably 80, 90 percent
of it is being there and being

around more than that.

It's fostering new relationships.

You know, like, I bet
you it's the same people.

Not always the same people
showing up to those meetings,

but the same familiar faces.

And what that presents is,
hey, we're here for a reason.

You know, you may not have a need
this week, but maybe it's 6 weeks from

now and I'm getting a chance to get
in front of you and you're getting

a chance to get in front of me.

Right?

I mean, I'm sure you're in in
that in that V and I group.

You got.

Plumbers and insurance agents
and all sorts of things.

And, you know, when the need arises,
you have a go to, you have a go to.

It's like, you have your
guy, you have your guy.

And right now, Evan, you are my guy.

Yeah,

well, I think we've
definitely gone a little

longer than we intended to here.

I'm sorry, I talk way too much.

No,

no, no, it's.

This has been a great conversation.

I'll agree with Peter that, you
know, I think you, you've been one

of my favorite guests so far as well.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um, yeah, we kind of, we kind
of usually in these with a,

like a transition to the future.

So what does, what does the
future look like for you, Evan?

What does the future look like for you?

Sure.

Um, I've got, uh, two next steps
kind of buying to be step number two.

Um, and that's either taking on
some of the manufacturing because.

I'm not 100 percent getting everything
that I want from my vendors and, uh,

also continuing to build on the success
of vending my sales by means of having

online sales and the main purpose of that
would be to take items that, you know,

yard signs, banners, high margin, low
costs, pass through things that even if

I can make something 20 a day profit.

Great.

That's 640 bucks a month that I made from
me not having to take the same amount of

time that I sell somebody like a billboard
to sell a hundred dollar banner, you know,

it's, it's worth it to give me some relief
to sort of automate that a little bit.

And then, plus that also has a lot to do.

We haven't talked about this, my,
the company, since my name is Evan

Zebley, then my company is EZ signs.

So it, it just makes
sense for the easy brand.

Hey, it's easy.

Just go online and get it, you know?

Um, but anyway, I've got those two
things going and I imagined it probably

both going to happen at the same time.

I gotcha.

Yeah.

Uh, iron.

A lot of irons in the fire.

Um, are you, like, are you, are you
looking to, like, with your online sales,

say, like, just to step into that for a
moment, because it's a very interesting

topic for me and one that I see like
a lot of owners want to step into.

Uh, and it it kind of difficult with
stuff like signage because it is Mm-Hmm.

custom, even within a banner, you know?

Um, how do you do that?

But like, are you planning on like
marketing that to a wider audience

or is it more of just like, Hey,
I've got my area that I serve.

I may not be able to come out and
talk to you for a hundred dollar

banner or, you know, like, if you need
something quickly, like just log on.

Uh, are you planning on like serving?

Like a national audience, or is
this just like a, a nice way to,

you know, funnel some of that other
smaller stuff into a, a more efficient

queue or flow, I guess.

My main goal is to allow myself more
time so that I can go, uh, work on

other, uh, more profitable sales.

So it is.

I want.

You know, initially just to kind
of take care of some of the easier

stuff, you know, because if you're
dealing with a college and they've

already got the graphics done, they
just need to send it somewhere.

And if they send it to a custom signed
shop that they have to go through

a salesperson, it takes three days
to get a proof back or whatever.

It's like, why did I do that
when I could have just gone to

VistaPrint and printed it right now?

So I want to have a solution
right now for my customers.

And I do want to let it grow.

Naturally, I believe it will
grow, but that's going to

be again through referrals.

I'll, uh, one of them, two of my
favorite sales that I made while

I was at fast signs, it was, I was
at fast signs when COVID happened.

So I took that particular branch from that
300, 000 a year to 700 in that one year.

And it was during COVID.

And while all the other owners
were like, what do we do?

I was like.

We're going to make some
social distancing signage.

The thing that everybody does now, right?

Well, there were a couple of people
inventing fire at the same time.

And I was one of those people.

And I was like, look, we, we have
statutes that the state sent out.

We're going to make these
things that let it be known.

That's going to help your operations.

And immediately I had local
companies, manufacturing companies.

They were like, Hey, this is great.

We want you to make it for our company
here, our company in Pennsylvania.

Our place in Quebec and our place
in California, and now I have

connections with the managers of
those operations and they're like,

where did we get these from last time?

Who does this stuff?

Oh yeah, Evan does it.

Yeah.

So

it's just naturally

spreads.

Yeah.

Great.

That's right.

And I believe that I really, I
believe this and it's anecdotal, but

it is true for me is that you just.

Try to be kind, even in like
a semi cutthroat business.

I don't talk bad about other science
shops ever, ever do I do that?

I might defend myself sometimes, but I
have to, but yeah, be kind to everybody

that you can be kind to, and just do
the job that you say you're going to do.

Just do it.

Fulfill your promises, never
over promise and under deliver.

So I believe that, you know,
I have been able to grow just

because of really those two things.

Great, man.

I look forward to seeing like the, the
online solution that you come up with.

And also like, I want to hear back with
where you land on like the manufacturing

side, because we we've got, uh, I'll
see if I can find the episode for you.

There was one guy that we, we talked
with in depth about like, Hey,

should I be doing manufacturing?

Should we get into that?

Should we not, you know, very interesting
topic and you know, it could go.

Either way, uh, more of like a personal
preference thing as well, whether you

want the headache involved with that as

well.

But if I, if I could find the right person
to run it for me, that would be the key.

There you go.

Excellent.

Well, uh, Evan, I appreciate
you joining us again.

I think 1 of our favorite
episodes for sure.

Uh, Pete, any parting shots before we.

Uh, you took the wind from my sails there.

Yeah.

Evan, thank you for being here.

Uh, making the time.

I know you're in your car and I'm,
and I'm sorry for, uh, for disturbing

your day if we did it, but, um,
it was a pleasure meeting you.

And I, and I do look forward
to seeing you here on the show

again.

Wow.

Thank you very much,
guys, for the opportunity.

And, uh, thanks for, uh,
hosting me in my car.

I apologize.

It's all good.

You got to get done
work in the office, man.

That's all good.

Thanks.

All right.

We'll see you.

Thanks.

All right.

Thank you.

That's the episode.

I hope you enjoyed it.

I'd like to give one final
shout out to our sponsor.

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archives to episode 9, where the
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If you liked this episode,
make sure you hit subscribe to

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And check out our website, BetterSignShop.

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Thanks for listening.