Better Sign Shop Podcast

Learn how to build a better sign and print shop from a few crusty sign guys who've made more mistakes than they care to admit. Conversations and advice on pricing, sales, marketing, workflow, growth, and more. You're listening to the Better Sign Shop podcast with your hosts Peter Kourounis, Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.

[Music]

Bam bam bam

Uh, we are back. Welcome to yet another episode of the Better Sign Shop podcast. I'm your host Brian Gillespie. It has been a... like literally too many minutes. Of course, I'm here with my co-host Michael Riley, the sign burrito, the sign therapy guru.

How are you, Mike? Good to see you, dude.

I'm good. Been a while. How are you?

I... yeah, I am... like looking out the window here, I am snowed in. I've got six inches of snow outside. We've been in the winter storm of the decade, apparently. The good news is we did not lose power at all. So my wife stayed very happy over the last week.

I was going to ask if you got to use that uh that that new generator you bought. I did not.

Still in the box. Hopefully I can take it back. Yeah. You never know with Harbor Freight. We'll see how it goes.

just what you wanted to spend your money on, right?

Like exactly right. Well, what's what else has been going on with you, man? You know, you and I have stayed in touch, but obviously we've not done a podcast episode, I don't know, since it's been May since I've done a podcast episode. I don't even think you joined us on that one.

Let's talk about... No, I think it's been over a year.

Yeah, and it's been over a year since I've been on one. Yeah, well my business has been a little, uh, I guess I'll call it on hold here lately. Had a lot of family, uh, issues in the last year that I've been dealing with. My father passed away early last year and spent a lot of time back and forth between Oregon and Ohio and then my mom sold her house and she has recently moved in with my wife and I, and that's been interesting. We kind of, um, sort of like having a 75-year-old toddler running around your house that you can't control and thinks they know everything.

Can only imagine, man. Mhm. I mean, I've yeah. I've seen the pictures, so.

Yes, in in the span of um a month and a half, I think we've made seven trips to the emergency room. She's had two strokes, several major falls. Um so I've I've kind of transitioned from being a

business owner and sign designer full-time to a full-time caretaker and part-time very part-time sign designer. Trying to trying to get back into it, but it's it's been a long year for sure. So I'm definitely excited to be back in the the seat here and talking about shop a little bit.

Yeah, man. It's a lot to go through and I I you know, I can't imagine how you're still upright after all of it.

ts

I think some days you just don't have a choice, right? You got to get up and keep going whether however you feel anyway.

We can do this.

Yeah, that's that's life. I mean, you know, I'm I'm thankful for on one hand the opportunity to have my mom with us and and, you know, take care of her and, you know, she obviously did that for me when I was a kid and and payback is a bitch, I guess.

Um.

like were you like a shithead as a like teenager or something or what, man?

Well yeah, wasn't everybody, you know, a shithead when they were kids? I mean, no, I think I think for all intents and purposes I was a pretty decent kid, but I'm still... I I I I think that she still owes me a few a few gray hairs. You know, you're asking about how my beard is so gray, that's partly why. Um, but no, I mean I, you know, honestly it's it is kind of an honor to, you know, be able to do that for my parents and and and be part of it, but um, yeah, I mean, you know, our we've got a decent sized house, but so did she. So we had to, I spent the whole year remodeling, you know, a apartment for her in our house.

so she's got her own entrance and bathroom and everything and then I had to build a basically a a small barn in our backyard for all of her crap.

So, it's been kind of nonstop construction and traveling and my eyes been off the off the ball and I've been out of the game here for a little bit. Time to time to get back into it.

This is good to have you back. And maybe we could change the nickname to Mike the Tool Man Riley or something.

Sounds good to me.

Do you know I like Tool Time?

I don't want to be a burrito anymore.

[Human Sounds]

Yeah

Well, anyway, like on my side of it, you know, I I'm not sure if we talked about it on the podcast or not, but obviously like I have not been working with too many clients on the the sign shop side here lately. Um, we were doing a ton of like business management software or shop management software consulting. We kind of it tailed off of that and you know, for the last couple of years, I've been working full-time for a software company uh called Directus. It has nothing to do with the sign industry, which is uh

it's a nice change of pace sometimes, right?

Lucky you.

the the other side of it, and we talked about it before, you can't get this industry out of your blood. So, anything that I learn on that side of the table, I'm constantly thinking about, okay, how can I take this and apply it to the sign industry?

Um, and you know, I like I've been heavily involved in some AI projects on that side of it, which is is very exciting. We've got some stuff that we're going to talk about coming up. But it it is, I you can't get this industry out of your blood and I'm like to the point again now where I'm ready to, like you, man, I'm ready to dive back into this and we want to restart the podcast, we want to restart the newsletter, and we want to take

you know, you and I have both over the last six months have just been locked into this hold my beer AI thing. Uh, I want to teach people about that. I want to, you know, apply some of it, what we've learned to the sign industry and hopefully help some folks along the way. Uh, but also just get back into talking shop, you know, that was my, that's my favorite part of this podcast and I've really missed that. Uh, just connecting with shop owners and I I will say reminiscing, but yeah, it is kind of that way.

It's the only way, you know, guys like us who don't actually work in a shop anymore, it's the only way we can connect back to our roots really and feel like we're still in the industry is talk to the guys that actually do it every day, so.

Alright, um after a brief interruption by a tiny co-host, we're back. Um, what were we even talking about, Mike?

What about you? AI and what you've been up to with AI and sharing that with people and just excited to be back in the driver's seat.

Yeah, so it's official.

we are restarting the podcast and the newsletter. Uh, that's exciting. And the newsletter is going to go out every Saturday. Um, I chose Saturdays because it is also a nice time for me to write in the mornings, so uh, if you don't like Saturdays, hey, wait till the the week, read the newsletter that's coming out. Um, the podcast, we are looking for more shop owners to interview. You know, um, if you've got an interesting story, I I can't tell you how many shop owners we've interviewed where there's been like a shop fire in the picture. I guess we could do more of those. That would probably be interesting.

but you know, if you've got other interesting stories, you know, uh how you grew your business, what you started from, you know, we would love to chat with you. Um, if that's you or if that's one of your friends, shoot us an email at hey at bettersignshop.com and let us know more about your shop. Um, and tell us a bit about your story. We'll uh probably fire back a couple questions, maybe get you on a quick call, and then you could be on the next episode of the Better Sign Shop podcast. Um, but the other thing...

that we've been working on since we're transitioning, right? is something exciting. What do you think, Mike? How how much should we spill the beans on what what we've been working on?

I think you should spill the beans a little bit. It's pretty cool. These guys want to see it.

We we've been very quiet and I don't want anybody to mistake that for like, hey, we're leaving the sign industry or we've not been operating because behind the scenes for I don't know.

how long has it been now? At least six months. We have been working on a new software project, which is uh it's kind of hard to describe.

describe on first take, but it's essentially a website platform and a lightweight CRM for your sign shop. Um, you know, a lot of shop

owners that we've talked to, the breakdown seems to be in the communication side with the the customers, uh and most well well I I won't get into that because we're going to save that to the end.

but um a lot of websites are really bad and with AI and everything else that is, you know, progressing in the industry.

If your website is not professional, if it doesn't have the right information, uh you are going to get crushed on the marketing side because these AI agents like OpenAI

uh Claude, all these things are are searching your website. Uh, you know, all these different crawlers are ending up on your website and if you don't

have both the technical side of it and the user experience side of it nailed down, you are losing money for sure.

Um, but we're very excited about that project. We've got uh probably a few more weeks before we do any large announcement about it.

but if you want to be involved, you want to be uh someone who is testing that platform, you want to help us mold it, help us shape it, uh again, definitely reach out to us, hey at Better Sign Shop.

um just mention you heard it on the podcast and uh we'd love to chat with you. All right, I see you've muted yourself. I don't know why. Just doesn't have any more to say, Mike. What's up?

It's gonna be cool. I can't wait to see some of the reactions to this.

It's got a long way to go before I think it's ready for prime time, but um the progress that you made on it so far is is is really impressive and I think when when people in the industry see this, it's going to um

I think it's going to blow some minds. It's definitely uh leaps and bounds difference and better than, you know, anything else that I think we've seen on the market so far. Uh obviously Brian and I have

you know, been in the software side of the industry for a long time and then... Too many years. We've seen some shit.

Too many years.

Yeah. So, you know, we've we've seen the good and the bad and and uh and I'd say we probably have a pretty pretty solid uh barometer on on what is uh what's going to be an effective tool for this industry.

And I'm excited to, I'm excited to get it out there and and see what people think about it.

All right, well, we won't uh, yeah, dive into like a a two-hour spiel today. Let's uh, let's go to the mailbag because we've got some questions uh that

that readers or listeners, I guess we should say, have submitted to us. Um, it's been a minute since we've done one of these episodes where we've answered some user questions. So, yeah.

Um, let's talk about it. The first one on the list, and this is uh this is one that I picked out specifically for you because you've you've wore a lot of different hats in this industry compared to me.

Uh Janet Kramberger from SJ Graphics Corporation. Janet, thanks for listening. Her question is, how do you keep your energy up after reinventing yourself over and over again?

I don't even know that that's a sign question, but that's a good question for you, Mike.

And I think that's just a a life question or, you know, an adult question. Um, and I'm honestly not sure I know the answer to it. Uh yeah, I mean you're right. I've I've worn a lot of hats in this industry.

And um, yeah, I mean, let's talk through, talk me through your journey. Yeah, that's that's why I thought this was a good question for you.

Yeah, I mean, you know, I I I grew up on a family-owned golf course. That's my my parents had a golf course when I was a kid and um I was just kind of always artsy-fartsy. And I ended up

being we did a lot of golf outings so I started making all the golf hole sponsor signs and welcome banners just as kind of like a value-added service for the the outings and uh

ended up really enjoying it. They sold the golf course and I went to work for a little mom and pop, you know, vinyl shop and then ended up buying that one and growing it and then selling it and then going to work for several other large sign companies.

and now I'm just an independent sign designer. So, you know, I and and throughout that I've I've I've worn every conceivable, you know, hat in the industry and and and done just about every role.

Um, yeah, I don't know that you have to necessarily reinvent yourself. Um, yeah.

What were the what were the shifts for you throughout the so you started as like lowly low man on the totem pole, mom and pop shop, moved up, bought, was it did you buy the same mom and pop shop?

Yeah, yeah, just bought it outright. I mean they were and they were small and it's not like I paid a lot of money for it or anything. It was a computer and a plotter and a little bit of inventory and a customer list, but it was a it was a starting point. It was a, you know, it was a seed.

Um, I mean I I learned how I had to learn how to go from being a, you know, low man on the totem pole, final slinger to the guy at the top of the totem pole who is also a final slinger and

toilet cleaner and pays the bills and everything else, you know. Yeah. Um.

you know, the I don't know if it's a reinvention or if it's just an evolution of what you do and who you are. I mean, I mean over time you definitely have to step into roles that you're not overly comfortable with.

and and definitely, you know, you're not going to be in business and be a a business owner and not be in very uncomfortable

uh places and you know, and out of your element. Um for sure. And and I think that's probably the the biggest thing is

If you want to be successful, you just have to get over it. And and so you you overcome a lot of those fears and and anxieties. Um, and I think that, you know, you become more confident and capable just by

having to go out there and and put yourself in the middle of it because it's not optional, you know. Um, but as far as reinvention, um

I mean, do you think, do you think energy plays a factor in it? Like, of all the roles that you've had, right? I I guess energy could be like two different ways here.

Hey, how did you have energy to make it through the day? Or like, is there something that like, did one role energize you over the other? Does that make sense?

Yeah.

And that's uh I don't know what's the yeah unfortunately this is all we've got from Janet. So Janet, when you write the next question, we love you, but um you know, give us more context on the next one. For sure.

uh you know, I mean, the the energy thing, I mean, if you're talking about physical energy, I I I I think you just manifest it from the universe.

Um, it's one of those things. Again, just like, you know, if you want to be successful in business, you just have to do it. And it's almost like you dissociate yourself with how exhausted you are and how sore you are.

and how much you don't want to get up at four in the morning and and go dig post holes today, you know, you just kind of have to do it. Um, I I think that um...

especially starting a business like the sign industry that's fairly physical and and and you know if you're running a sign shop you're probably not sitting behind a desk all day long so um it's not a young man's game.

That's for sure. I mean it's not an old man's game, it's a young man's game for sure. You know, it's something that you need to have that physical energy. I don't think I could do it. You know, I'm 45 now, I don't think I could do it again.

No, right, I want to, but I think um, you know, I I think you get a little bit of success and something works and you land that that next big client and um you're proud of the work you do. Um, I think that kind of like just is constantly

giving you just a little that little push to keep going, to keep pushing through the the exhaustion and and that that built energy. And I think that

You know, if you're if you're going to start a business, whether it's this industry or anything, you have to really love what you do and you have to be passionate about it and and I I think as long as you maintain that, yeah, if you maintain that passion, then I think you'll have the energy there for it or you'll find it or you'll you'll create it.

But if you lose the passion for it, I think there's no I don't think you can make that energy up from nothing. It has to come from that.

Yeah, I I think it's more of like you don't even give yourself an option, right? Like if you think of it like, yeah, some days like I get up and like my my latest morning routine

and like I tried to get back into this habit after having very bad habits of like I get up, have a cold cup of water, uh a little bit of creatine in it, go

downstairs in the basement in the quiet, do some stretching, uh and then just immediately row for as long as I can for as hard as I can. Um and you know, like when I first started doing it,

it was like this negotiation with myself of like, okay, uh man, like you've not done this in a while, it's gonna hurt. Like, do you really want to do this? And now it's just like I I just I've been able to put that aside and just be like, okay, like

There's no negotiations. Like you're just gonna go do this. I don't care how bad you hurt or whether you've torn your ACL, which I have. I've got a complete tear of my ACL right now and I I keep putting off surgery. Uh, but it's just one of those things where it's like, okay, like it's not even a question. It's just like, hey, you got to get up and keep doing it. And it's it's something more than energy has to drive you, I guess.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I mean, I've known a lot of people that have got in a business and then, you know, fairly promptly got back out of business because they, yeah, they had all the energy in the world, but it wasn't the right kind of energy or it wasn't directed or it wasn't coming from the right place. So it's not just energy alone that gets you through. I mean, in fact, I'd say that's probably one of the the smaller factors in it. I mean, humans are are pretty resilient and and we can push ourselves to extremes if we, you know, if we have to. Uh, you know, it's just part of our fight or flight mechanism. And I think that when you own a business, you kind of get into that fight or flight mode as well.

and to be successful, you have to be in fight mode. And in order to be in fight mode, you've got to, you know, you got to love what you're doing. Um, if you if you don't love it, you're going to probably all been there too. It's it's a tough industry.

We all want to run sometimes. Um, I don't know. I don't really I I I feel like I'm letting you down.

like as you were transitioning, was there ever like a like did energy ever come up or was it like how did you I don't know man like as you moved from one to the other to the other like what were your thoughts like what what were you you know what did that feel like was there like one role that you've done that that felt better or felt like it energized you more than the others you know I think you and I have had conversations before where it was like you could do the I could do the business owner thing but it really wasn't me deep down

Yeah. Oh yeah, 100%. And that's... I think, you know, and I've talked about this a little bit in the past on the podcast too, you know, burnout and, you know, work-life balance is something that's obviously, you know, very, very important to me. And the reason for that is because I hit a wall, you know, but the burnout wall at like 100 miles an hour. And um, you know, you go so hard for so long trying to start a business and make it successful, um, that that passion, you, you know, is what drives you even if your tank is running on empty and you don't have any energy left. And eventually, you know, if you're running on fumes like that, you will hit a wall and burn out no matter what.

Um, so, I I think that um,

like I said, I mean, you have to do what you enjoy. And and and like you said, like you and I both kind of agree that the business side of it wasn't really our passion. We didn't love it. It really drained, for me anyway, it definitely drained my energy. Um, it it that was the the business operations side of thing, managing employees and paying the bills and dealing with all that crap. Um, didn't excite me. I didn't like doing it, which made me dread it, which drained my energy, which, you know, forced you into a burnout situation.

So, probably like one of the keys, if not the key to keeping up your energy is just making sure that you put yourself in a role that is, um, good for you, you know, the right fit for you and is fulfilling for you. Um, I think one of the biggest mistakes that small business owners make is they think that because they're the owner, they're the one that has to run the business. And I I definitely fell into that trap, you know, like this is my business, therefore I have to, I have to be the manager, I have to clean the toilets, I have to pay the bills. And you didn't get in the business to do that stuff. You got in the business to make signs, right?

So, it's the same thing that we always talk about, like do you want to work in the business or on the business, right? And if if working in the business is what makes you happy, then that's what you should do. If working on the business is what makes you happy, that's what you should do. But I don't think you're going to, you know, manifest some infinite source of energy if you're trying to do a lot of things. Yeah, that just aren't right for you. And it's it's okay to admit, hey, I suck at this and I don't want to do this role. Bookkeeping is the worst thing in the world. So I'm going to delegate that. And I'm going to put my energy into something that's more fulfilling.

Yeah.

And even in the case where it's like you don't have the money to pay somebody else to do it, right? That certainly forces hard decisions where like my advice in that is just like you got to do it anyway. Like, you got to figure out like, can we raise prices by X percent to eke out some profitability or, you know, if you look at it and you say, okay, like I'm taking a hundred grand out of the business and a manager or operations manager is going to cost me a large portion of that salary.

like is that worth it to to me as a business owner? Um, you know, is it worth it to my my life goals? Is it is it worth trading trading the time for the money? You know, and for some people it may be. At this stage of of my life, I'm like, how can I get more time back? And if it's reasonable and I can afford it without going broke, I'm I'm of the camp of like, okay, yeah, let's let's pay for it and be done with it. Um, versus let me take something else on. You know, firm believer that like like you said, you don't have an infinite energy.

there's not some infinite well that you never runs dry, so you're you're borrowing and then it eventually catches up with you. So, you know, at some point you got to put something else down before you can pick something up.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um, I think that's probably the the best.

most succinct way to answer her question is is what you just said. You have to put something else down before you can pick something else up. Otherwise you're carrying too much and you're going to run out of energy. Um, but you know, small business owners are notoriously uh bad at at delegating. Most of us got into owning a small business because we don't like to be told what to do. We want to be in charge, we want to be the boss, and and so we have it in our minds that that's what we have to do. And

I mean, it's scary when you own a business and you delegate away one of those tasks that in your brain is like, this this is something I have to do. Like bookkeeping or whatever, you know. Um, it's it's terrifying. And in in a way, it can make you feel like you're a bad business owner or a failure. Um, like I I should be able to do this. This should be something that's in my job description and and and it shouldn't it shouldn't piss me off the way that it does. And yet it still does. And that's just a sign that you shouldn't, you know, if at all possible, you should delegate, get it off your plate and and focus that energy. Because that energy is turning into negative energy now.

you're forcing yourself to do something that and and I'm I'm talking obviously if your business is at a point where you can afford and justify hiring somebody. Obviously if you're just starting out and you, you know, you're only making, you know, fifty grand a year in revenue, you're not going to be able to afford to hire a full-time accountant. You know, assuming that you're at a place where you you have some, you know, budget to play with and you're trying to decide, you know, what do I, do I hire another production employee or do I hire another office employee? You know, factor yourself into that and factor your own energy and passion into that and and hire hire the person to do the things that you don't want to do or that you're not good at so that you can

Yeah, do, yeah. Yeah, I think it's some efficiency.

the the whole

the whole hustle culture phenomenon that I think has finally died out, but you know, for for for a long time it was sort of like the just the unspoken rule of being in small business that if you're not doing everything or if you're delegating some of the business management tasks away and you're actually doing the work, you know, you're making the widgets versus you're running the business. For such a long time, I mean it was that was demonized and and it was I think it created a a whole lot of business owners out there that genuinely believe that they can't do what they want in their own business.

they have to do all the stuff that they don't want. And and by delegating some of that away, they're a failure. Yeah. You know, and I I think that's... That's the handcuffs.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's insane. Like you got into business because you're good at something, you're passionate about something, and you wanted to do do something different in your own way. So why do you care what other people think about what you're doing within your business? Delegate what you don't want to do.

like it's not that big a deal. You'll be happier, you'll have more energy, and you'll have a more successful business if you do. That's that's the perk of being the boss is you don't have to be the accountant if you don't want to be.

Yeah. Yeah, keep me away from the books. I mean, that kind of leads into one of the other mailbag questions that we had here. Uh, I feel like mailbag is a terrible name for this session, by the way. But anyway, um...

Okay, this is from Dave from Anonymous Sign Company. Look, we anonymous questions are fine. Um, but yeah, we'd like to know who we're talking to. So Dave, he asks, how can I tell whether I'm burnout from the sign industry or just bored? You were just talking about burnout, so I'll I'll give you first crack at this one.

What's the difference between burnout and boredom? I mean, I kind of feel like they're

two sides of the same coin in a way, you know, like they're not quite the same, I guess, but they're they're very similar. I I think that if you're forcing yourself to do the wrong things for too long, uh or you're just pushing yourself too hard, um you're obviously you're going to burn out, but I think a lot of that burnout is probably also boredom. I mean it's not a stretch to say that most business owners, you know, we are we like to have our hands in a lot of things, we like to do a lot of things, we like to, you know, we hyperfocus on something.

we want it to be, you know, perfect or we want to, you know, whatever it is. We're we're tinkerers. That's it's kind of our nature, especially in this industry. Um, and if you, just like what I was saying before, if you remove yourself from the stuff in the, you know, in your business that you really enjoy, you're going to get bored. And that boredom is going to lead to burnout, you know. I think

I've been there for sure, you know, doing accounting is boring. And it it leads to burnout.

So I I think it's um I think it's super important that you you do the fun stuff. You reserve the fun stuff for yourself as the business owner. I mean, it's your business. you have that right

and that's the stuff that keeps you going. That's the stuff that makes you want to get up in the morning and and and go get the shit kicked out of you again today. And do it over and over every day for years and years and years.

That's a good way to put it. Like, what drives you enough to wake up and get the shit kicked out of you every day that you would still do that?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, really that's what it is. I mean, it it is like stepping into a, you know, cage fighting, you know, ring or something. You know, like it's kind of how it feels to be a small business owner. It's like, where's the next roundhouse kick to the face going to come from? So, yeah, if if you're not super excited about what you're doing, if you're not doing that fun stuff, at least some of it, like, and all you're dealing with is the shit, of course you're going to get bored with it and burnt out and you're going to stop caring and you're going to fail. It's not failure, it's just... So. But I I don't I don't understand that mentality.

I mean, I've seen so many business owners that actually like they carry real guilt for delegating some of that stuff and not doing it, you know, and that's just such a bizarre thing to me.

I mean, I don't know where it comes from. Shit man, I like I I take on way too much. Like you know this.

I think when I look at burnout, right? It is and somebody like recently phrased it to me this way. Like burnout happens when there is a lack of of hope about the future, right? Because you know when you if you go back to when you were first grinding it out.

And you know, again, like we both hate like the hustle culture, but you know, you could wake up every day and you could go and do it and you were excited to do it, uh, because you had like this goal you were trying to attain or like you knew, hey, like I'm growing, I'm learning new things every day. But you know, the difference between that and and burnout, just like really hard work and burnout is there's there's a lack of hope of like, okay, hey, now I'm stuck, I'm still pulling the same 60-hour weeks, but like I can't find any good help.

uh, you know, our margins are down because the guy down the street opened up and started undercutting us. Inflation's up. Right.

I think and that's a good way to to frame it. I think of like, okay, it's just like, hey, I don't have any hope. Um, and in that moment, right, you've got to do what? You've got to take a step back and like examine what you're doing and you know, take a hard look at it of like, is this do I want to continue doing this, right? And in your case, it was like, hey, I like I got to sell this business before it like consumes me and I got to do something else. Um, and then of course, you still found your way back to this industry.

But, uh, you know, the other, you know, like anytime I've burned out or it felt like I've approached burnout, it's been the same sort of thing where it's like I'm I'm not growing anymore. It like it feels like you're you're stuck in place and you're doing the same thing. And, you know, conventional wisdom says, hey, don't do the same thing every day and expect different results.

you know, we just settle into habits and cycles and it sometimes it's hard to break, but you know, I guess in in that respect it could be boredom, right? where it's just, hey, I'm I'm no longer learning anything. And again, in in that moment, it's very hard because you it's hard to give up on something or I won't say give up, right? It's hard to shift away from something that you've poured so much of yourself into.

and do something different. Right not knowing what the outcome is going to be

Yeah, yeah.

I think I think there's definitely a sense of failure that that you're going to feel if you if you do that. I think it's just natural because it's not the outcome that you envisioned when you went started off on that that path. Um, choosing to change paths and do something different isn't failure. It's it's the opposite of failure. If you stay on a path that isn't working for you, you know, that boredom and burnout is going to just get worse and worse and worse until you really do totally fail. And you know, the wheels are going to come off of it eventually. I mean, you can't sustain running a business that you're just miserable running for whatever reason.

Um, and I think too, something that I felt, and I don't know if everybody else or other people feel this or not, but I'm the type of person that I I need to I need some sort of sense of, like a tangible sense of accomplishment. I need to step back at the end of the day,

like like like I mentioned earlier, I grew up on a golf course and I hate golf by the way. I don't play golf. It's the worst fucking sport ever.

Maybe the most frustrating sport ever.

Yeah, no, I can I can drive a ball 400 yards dead straight. Like I'm a great golfer, but I it's I hate it. I hate golf. I hate golfers.

about it. Um, but you know, I I was out mowing fairways when I was 12 years old on a on a big Master reel fairway mower. And that's how I learned to drive was on a fairway mower. And even back then, I can vividly remember as a 12-year-old like stepping off my tractor and looking at that fairway that's perfectly striped, beautiful, and thinking, yeah, I'm proud of that.

That's awesome.

And then when you when you get into owning a business and you start taking on all those business ownership roles like accounting or, you know, management, all that stuff. There's not, you can't step back at the end of the day and look and say, Yep, I managed the hell out of that.

You know, man, I, you know, I really, really did those books today. You know, like it's just not how it works.

You you were such a great leader today. You you led the shit out of the team.

Exactly right. Like it's just comical to think about, but that's

you know, I for me, and I I have to assume that a lot of people in at least in this industry are are are similar in that they they got into it because they like to make stuff. And we've talked about that before. Like, we like to make stuff. We just we want to make cool shit. That's why we, you know, we got into it. That's why, you know, we both kind of pivoting in this software direction and and um because it's just we get to make stuff. Like, I love going to IKEA because I get to build stuff. It's like adult Legos, you know. Like anytime I can I can do something and I can stand back and say, that's awesome.

whether it's I built that, whether I mowed that, whether I made that sign. The sense of accomplishment that you get, I think, is something that really will continue to push you forward more and more as a business owner. And so if you're bored and if you're doing the stuff that you don't get that sense of accomplishment from ever, your brain is going to reject that entirely and it's it's going to fight back against that. So, I think that's really like super important, you know, don't don't make yourself a martyr at the expense of your, you know, for your business.

and and you know, you started it because you liked to do something and you wanted a certain outcome and you wanted a certain feeling from doing that thing.

and the farther you get from that, the more miserable you're going to be as a business owner. So I I think that's, I don't know.

It's easy to say that looking with, you know, hindsight, 30-year career, but when you're in the trenches, it sucks.

Yeah, and it's and you know, you don't have the money to pay somebody to do it. I mean, I don't... I realize I'm speaking from a point of, you know, we'll call it privilege here, I guess, but...

already already been through it, yeah. It's like, what would your... well, hey, like put yourself back into the middle of it. Right?

what would you say to somebody that is is stuck and they're like, okay, I don't have the money to hire somebody to take off some of this from my plate so I can do something else or do what I need to do?

It's tough. I mean, you gotta you kind of gotta knuckle under and that's when the whole dissociation thing comes into play and and you kind of have to, you know, I but you gotta find a way to to to do those things that make you happy too. I mean, if if having

to do the accounting and stuff is unavoidable and it has to land in your lap. Okay, so be it. That's that's the sacrifice that uh you make when you start a small business is is

buck stops with you eventually, you know, and if there is nobody else, it does come to you. But you have to backfill that with the rewarding stuff as well. You can't not do that. You just you have to figure out how to do it. And it's hard and sometimes there's not enough time in the day to do it. Um, but

if if you're at that point where, you know, you need to hire more help and you you got all this on your plate and you can't do it but there's no money to to get from point A to point B, you really need to step back and take a look at your business at that point because there's probably something else that's wrong in there because theoretically if you're this busy, you should be able to at least get some part-time help in there with some money. So if you if your margins are so razor slim that that you can't, you're working yourself to death but there's nothing at the end of the day, I think there's you know, that's a that's a totally different discussion, but

Get yourself out of the environment for a day. Yeah. Like get out of the shop for a day, take a hike, do something. Um, something to get yourself in a different state of mind and and just, you know, come up with a few ideas of of what you can do, right? Certainly if there's, like you said, if there's no other option, like there's no money, like you don't have any ideas, like at least start taking care of yourself so that you've got some kind of balance, right? Where you can weather the storm. But certainly, you know, that's business ownership.

you got to look at it right in the face and you got to say, okay, I've got to make some hard changes and yeah, whether that's and let's call on that that customer that we have that I think we could do more business with and just put it all on the line and say, okay, hey, I want this and this and this and here's what we could do for you and that we'll deliver and yeah, that sort of thing. But certainly there there's a way out. So don't feel discouraged, Dave. Uh, and and don't be anonymous next time, Dave.

Alright, uh last question from the mailbag, which we're going to change the name for the next episode. Should we stick to trade only and supply to sign shops only and market that exclusively or sell to anyone that wants a sign? Uh, this is from Simon Clark at KF Plastics. Simon, thank you for writing in. Um, great question. I think we could probably like go the reverse route on this as well. If you were, I've seen lots of shops that do retail and have asked about trade only. Uh, but this is also something that...

that you got a little taste for back in your shop, Mike, so I'll toss it to you.

Yeah, um, I sold my shop, we're going on what, 13 years ago now, I think. So the the industry's changed a bit since then, but back back when I had my shop, 15, 18 years ago really when we were doing a lot of wholesale work, everybody and their brother didn't have a a white format printer and a flatbed printer. Digital printing was was common, but it wasn't as commoditized as it is now. So there was a market for quality, affordable wholesale printing. And and for me, it was a way to keep my machines running, you know, I you know, load them up with rolls of vinyl at night, go home, come in in the morning and they're ready to laminate whatever.

Um, it worked well, but as time has gone on, like I said, the the the cost of entry to get into, yeah, I'm I'm talking digital printing, but it could be anything, obviously. Um, the cost of entry into that stuff is is lower and there are more and more wholesalers out there that are extremely capable and they always have more equipment than you and faster equipment and more employees and they can, you know, they can outproduce you if if if they want. So, it's a it's a hard one to be in now is is wholesaling. Um, everybody, there's been a huge trend in the last...

few years in the industry and and everybody that I talk to is moving in this direction. A lot of my clients are doing this. Um, people are moving away from doing production entirely and and strictly doing sales, design, installation, project management, you know.

It only makes sense, man. Like if I had to go back, if somebody was like, here's a hundred grand, like you got to start a sign shop and run it today, like I would, I would totally invest a hundred grand in marketing and I would not buy a single piece of equipment.

Yeah

I just would not because the the wholesalers out there now, you know, you look at some of the big ones, um, like B2B Sign or B2 Sign or Signs 365 or just these guys that you can pull up and order a print off of. And that's not to mention like the other like cabinet manufacturers or, you know, channel letter manufacturers that are out there. Like there's there's tons of great suppliers. And they're easier than ever to find as well.

it just doesn't make sense to in most cases, right? It doesn't make sense to take on that overhead, that debt, that whatever, unless you've just you've got so much business that you know it is a safe play and you're going to, you know, you're going to leverage the margin that you're going to gain by pulling it in-house. But it's just it it seems foolish now to to do a lot of production work.

I mean, obviously we're talking about kind of like more commoditized type.

Certainly.

and not super high-end custom stuff. I mean, if you're doing if you're doing the really high-end stuff, you kind of got to do production house to have total control over it. And that's, you know, that's that's a bit uh different. But I mean, I'm assuming Simon, you know, is is talking about something that's more like white format digital, um, laser cutting. I guess it's KF, I don't know what his company does, but. Um, yeah, I I would have a hard time suggesting any smaller shop pursue um any sort of trade-only wholesale work right now.

Um, just because it's so saturated, there's so many great vendors out there that I can't imagine being able to compete with them very well, uh, either on cost or turnaround time, honestly.

So if you, it's basically like if you're a retail shop, stay away from offering wholesale.

If you're a retail shop, there's probably the chances of you having the kind of firepower in your production facility to be able to compete with any of those big guys out there is slim. It just I don't see how it would be a a wise

use of your effort, you know, to do versus trying to, um, you know, get more local quote-unquote retail clients that, you know, are willing to pay top dollar for for good work. Margins are higher. You know, that's the other thing is it's competitive. Wholesale work is competitive as hell. It's it's easy to, it's easier to do because you're just taking, you know, files from people that theoretically know what they're doing and you don't, you kind of sidestep much of the, you know, the sales process with it.

but you know, again it's commoditized so that people assuming that your quality is acceptable and what it should be, which quality is not a differentiator anymore. It's it's the expectation, it's the baseline. So assuming your quality is on point and your customer service is on point, the only thing that you can compete on is price.

Like who wants to do that? That's a race to the bottom, right?

It is, yeah. That's that's the way I look at it, right?

Unless you're huge and you're a factory, like like 365, then it's not a race to the bottom because you're it's volume. You know, the average retail sign shop is not in the commodity volume printing business even though they have the equipment.

Yeah, yeah.

and at that point you really have to have your systems dialed in. And that's like I've seen folks that get themselves into trouble, especially like when you look at it like square foot based pricing of like, well we can get X price per square foot wholesale. That's that's pretty good. But you know, they're not factoring in the overhead, they're not factoring in the opportunity cost as well, right? Of, hey, if I've got my printer tied up for five hours printing something at three dollars a square foot, and I've got you know several jobs that we're printing that we're selling at twelve dollars a square foot, again, just simplifying.

Right. The opportunity cost there is huge. It's crazy.

Right. All right, so back to back to Simon's question. He's trade only currently. Should he sell to anybody that wants a sign? I mean it's it's tough without knowing context about the business, but let's assume it's a solid business. But we want to, I'm assuming they want to grow and you know, maybe right now they're distributors that they're working with, you know, sign shops aren't, maybe they're not buying enough. I don't know. It's impossible to know what the context is, but is this a good idea or not? Put you on the hot seat.

Obviously, if he is trade only right now and he goes full retail to anybody, he's going to alienate probably quite a few of his wholesale customers.

Um, a lot of questions.

That's the immediate downside, right? Yeah.

it it isn't it isn't, you know, like you know, I I was the same. I for for me, wholesale work was just a something to keep the machines running, um, uh, in between higher profit jobs. But, um, it's, I don't know. I I think he

runs the risk of making one group there unhappy. I don't know which one it would be, but I I think he's probably going to drive away some of his wholesale clients. Um, I think he'll have a harder time servicing retail clients if his wholesale clients are putting pressure on him, which they will because that's all of his business right now.

They're gonna he's gonna have a hard time balancing the two, um, if he does both. Uh, and I that's speaking from experience. You got wholesale customers that you need, they they need their work now, um, and it's lower margin. But you've also got retail clients that are higher margin, they need it now. But you'll probably never hear from them again. So it's like what do you, you know, you're kind of between a rock and a hard place all the time with scheduling. Um, and and prioritizing. So I I feel like it's... it's a risky move. And again, if I were him, I would get out of wholesale entirely. Not knowing his business at all, but...

It's the direction that I would probably try and move into and and um and and just shift into uh you know sales and marketing and customer service and uh and design and and different- differentiate yourself that way um versus

it's it's it's it's a tough one to recommend, right? Just not knowing the additional context. I think

I'd I'd love to get Simon on a call and actually pick his brain and and and like

Simon, if you listen, we would love to get you on a call. Doesn't have to be on the podcast.

love to talk through it, man. Um, you know, looking at it, it's it's it's hard to say one way or the other. I think it depends on if if it were me and I was weighing these two, I would look at how prepared are we for the retail side, right? You've got um, if I've already got salespeople that are managing the wholesale accounts or, you know, is it just like inside sales reps who take orders from these folks, right? Um, you know, with the retail side of it, it's a bit different. You know, there is overhead in the sales process and there there's more time involved there.

uh do you have access to the customers that you want to sell to on the retail side of it? Is it going to be easy to market to those folks? Do you know who they are? Those are the sorts of things that that I would think about, you know. And then obviously if you trade now, like if you squeezed all you can on that side of it, right? Are you very well known? Like do you all the shops in the area use you or all the shops in your market use you? Uh why or why not? You know, there's there's lots of different things to dig into before I would make a decision on it. So, Simon, thanks for the question.

It's a great one. Uh, again, we'll be happy to jump on a call with you. All right. Uh, we're closing in on an hour. I think we wanted to end this with some spicy takes. You want to go first? You want me to go first?

You go first.

Put me on the the spicy hot seat. Alright, so today's spicy hot take, and this one is near and dear to my heart, and Mike, you'll know why. Most sign shop websites, look guys, I mean no offense, but your sign shop websites, they are embarrassing. It's it's costing you real money as well. Uh, in this day and age, the your website, it's your online sales rep 24/7. And now I'm not here to tell you that you need some fancy design, but you do need a website.

it needs to clearly state what you do, what the value proposition of working with you is, and you need examples of your work so that you look reputable when somebody visits the website. Also, as I talked about at the beginning of this, you need to have all the different products you service or the the products that you sell, whatever you make in-house, you need those listed on the website. You probably want different pages for those. And the reason why is in the age of AI,

Um, OpenAI, Anthropic, all of these AI companies, all their scrapers are visiting your site. They are scraping that information from your site and then they are using that information to synthesize an answer for a potential customer. So, um, you know, you want to focus on the SEO side of things because a lot of these models do not have you in their training data, or if they do, it's way deep in there and it's not going to come up and, you know, so somebody searches best sign shops in my area.

you know, Google will in the past has shown you like a list of sign shops in that area. Um, they've almost across the board rolled out their AI overview that will now give summaries of these things. And where do you think they're pulling the information for those summaries? From your website.

OpenAI and ChatGPT and all these other things are are doing the same exact thing where they are, you know, indexing the internet, indexing the search results, and when it comes up, they're taking that information that's on your website and they are synthesizing it to that user. So, if you don't have a website, you're screwed. Let's just admit that.

That's it. First thing today, go buy a domain, get your website up, like a a Facebook profile, a just an Instagram account. And I've I've seen some of you folks. This is tough love. Go out.

Get the website up right now. I don't care if you're a one-man shop, get a website up. Get some examples of your work, clearly state what you sell, what locations do you service, what areas do you work in, get your address on there. Um, get your own faces on there, you know, so that I know I'm not dealing with some faceless entity. Um, and then last but not least, put some examples of your work, maybe some happy customers, you know, do some case studies. You know, that's the the other side effect, like, hey, I want to know that other people have worked with you before. Your work examples are are crucial for that.

But that's that's my rant. I I don't know. Did I miss anything?

No, I think I I mean I think we could um you know go into this topic extremely yeah extremely deeply maybe we maybe we should at some point. Um but no, I mean I I I think you you hit the nail on the head there for sure. Um I I just to maybe to add on to that, one of my one of my pet peeves with sign shops uh that I see a lot and and I I talk about this before too is a lot of sign shop owners they

I think they fundamentally mistake the industry that we are in and their their value proposition, you know, on their website is selling materials and paint and, you know, LEDs or whatever it may be. And they they focus on they focus on what the client doesn't care about. The client cares about outcome, right?

you know, and a lot of a lot of sign shops forget that the client isn't coming to them to buy materials. They're not coming to them to buy fabrication services. They're not coming to them to buy

Even a sign, right?

a sign, right? Yeah, they're coming to them because they need an outcome and they're looking for a professional to give them that outcome. and and ultimately

We are in the marketing industry. We are we're in the front lines of the marketing industry at that. And a lot of sign shop owners don't, I don't, I think they don't want to admit that to themselves and they they have it very, very much in their head that they are they're in the materials industry. And so to piggyback on what you said, don't just put a website up that talks about signs and materials and quality, you know, right. It needs to talk about what value you bring, what what are you going to do for that client's business.

what what is the outcome that using you is going to provide over chucking a truck down the street? And that's it it has to be the right website, not just a website, I guess is what I'm saying. And it has to speak to your your clientele correctly, not what you want to say, but what they need to hear. And then I think

you know, small business owners. Yeah, they we we as small business owners, I think we get so stuck in our heads that, you know, this is the way I see my business, therefore this is how I'm going to market it to the world and this is how they're going to see it. But, you know, we have tunnel vision and we're stuck, you know, deep on the inside of it. And and from a marketing standpoint, our clients don't see the business the same way we do. So we can't we can't sell it.

to them. You can't market it to them the same way. So, that website, you know, has to be more than just a, you know, these are the materials we use, these are, you know, it has to be results-driven. It has to be outcome-driven.

100% agree. And and if you are looking for a website or you're thinking about revamping your website, hire a professional. Please. like you

are not a website designer. You sell signs. I know they are adjacent and I know you can get pretty far with AI tools or Wix or Webflow or whatever, right? The cost of you doing that, I promise you, like the opportunity cost of you taking a detour to really build the website that you need is way higher than hiring someone to do this for you. Um if you need advice, it's totally free, hit us up. We will give you some free advice on your website. We'd be happy to take a look at it and give you like a teardown.

we could do that in private as well, so nobody gets embarrassed. Um, that's my rant. Mike, what is the the soapbox you're going to step up on today with your spicy take?

My spicy take, um, is the big red flag that we treat our employees like family. I think I think probably

doesn't say it right We treat our employees like family.

Like family. We've all said it, right? I have

with good intentions, right?

Yeah, yeah, totally.

I mean, it's not, I'm not saying that like you're a horrible person for for making this claim. And and I I would go so far as to say we genuinely believe it when we make that claim, right? Because that's what we we... And I think it's partly because as a sign shop owner or small business owner, like your employees kind of become your family because you're there so much. You see them way more than your own family. So in your mind, it kind of like they kind of are family. But yeah, that's a big red flag and your employees are not your family. And they're not there because they love you and are obligated to...

They're there to make money. They're there they're there for a paycheck, period.

The same.

and I yeah, I I think that in employers, business owners, um, they owe it to themselves, not just their employees, but they owe it to themselves to like be honest about that and and say, look, we may all get along great, you know, maybe we're even friends and and if if you want to call them a, you know, use the term family, we can we can do that, but let's not pretend it's anything other than a transactional relationship at the end of the day. You you give me labor, I give you money. And everything has to be framed around that. And I think the more you tread into that that mentality...

expectations on it, yeah. things will go south.

Yeah, exactly. I mean it's it's a hell of a lot harder to fire a family member than it is an employee. Speaking from experience. The more you start seeing them like family, the harder it becomes to manage them. The more those boundaries are blurred, the more they will start acting like family and taking advantage and and not not seeing it as the transactional relationship that it is. You know, the money that they get back is directly proportionate to the the effort that they put in. Um, so I think it's a slippery slope. I think it's disingenuous to employees.

Um, answer yourself. And I think that employers would do better by their employees by just being honest and saying, you know, this is why you're here, this is why I need you here.

This is how the relationship is going to be, you know. Nothing wrong with having fun. I'm not saying that, but I think that um falling into that mentality of of family is just it's risky for a lot of reasons. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean it's it's a loaded thing to like place those expectations, right? Because like when I think of family, you know, outside of my immediate family, like my wife and my kids, there's some dysfunction there, right? So like immediately like and I don't know, I like I could talk to ten friends and there would be some dysfunction in, you know, some part of their family. So number one, right, you don't want to start off on that foot of like, hey, it's family and we're just fucked up.

dysfunctional cool It's fine.

Um, you know, that's certainly not a good foot to start out with, but like, you know, it's all about boundaries and, you know, certainly, you know, the people higher up in your organization, there's more expectations of availability and when you're going to communicate and things like that, but, you know, like family gives the kind of, hey, I can call you whenever I need you. Whereas, you know, like an employee-employer relationship, like Saturdays, like time off, like shit's sacred, dude. Like, don't don't send that communication.

you know, even you know, you and I both work remotely and you know, like Slack is the main thread that runs through. Um, and even at my day job, uh working at the tech company, you know, there's some of those messages where I'm like, I started to send one of my direct reports and I'm like, okay, this is like seven o'clock at this time. Like we're always online. Maybe I just schedule that, right?

that's that's what we're saying is is boundaries, like, you know, certainly treat your employees well. That's that's not what we're saying.

Yeah, yeah.

like pay them well, like, you know, make sure that you put a a culture in place for where they can grow and they can level up and that you you support them and let them make mistakes. Um, but certainly, like pretending like your employees are family when they're not, um, is just a recipe for disaster. Right. Better to be upfront.

Yeah, totally. And they have their own families. They don't want you. They... they probably don't want their whole family either, like...

Who wants two families? What the what the hell? Um, yeah.

And like I said, I mean I think I think that we've all been there and I and and as a business owners, we we just fundamentally feel different about the business because it is so personal to us. So so saying the word family and thinking of it like family, I think just kind of almost feels natural in a way to business owners and I don't I don't think most of us are fully aware of, you know, the larger implications of of that. And it's not it's not even just saying we treat employees like family, but it's the actual the whole mentality of it and and the old culture behind it. And um, again, people are there to make money and go home to their real families, you know. If you want to go have a beer with them after work and you'll be friends with them, that's cool.

I was close with a lot of my employees and and, you know, we hung out after work and and some of them even come out here to Oregon to visit me after after I moved. Family is a stretch, you know. Like yeah.

This is a bad expectation to set.

Spicy takes out of the way. We are back in the seat and we didn't go over two hours this time, so listener, consider yourself blessed.