Better Sign Shop Podcast

Learn how to build a better sign
and prt shop from a few crusty

sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

workflow, growth, and more.

Your listening to The Better Sign Shop
podcast with your hosts, Peter Kunis,

Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.

Before we jump into the episode,
I'd like to give a shout out to

our sponsor, GCI Digital Printing
Grand Format Printer to the trade

GCI is not your average print shop.

They pride themselves on
providing you a fast stress-free

experience when outsourcing.

There are no excuses.

Mindset means no matter the job.

They'll have it done every time.

No other vendor will go to the links
that GCI does to ensure you are

a satisfied customer to hear more
about their approach to business.

Hop back into the archives to episode nine
where the guys and I interview owner TJ

be act about top tier customer experience.

If you're looking for a high quality trade
printer for banners, mesh, core Plast and

more, TJ and his crew will have your back.

For jobs, big or small, GCI does them
all, check them [email protected].

Alright guys, welcome back to the next
episode of the Better Sign Shop podcast.

I've got my co-host, as always,
Peter Caris, the sign Shop Yoda.

Pete, how are you sir?

Pretty good.

I'm pretty good.

Uh, no longer sick.

Getting ready to, uh, ring

in the holiday season here.

Finish up here with a
couple of decorations.

I am working on my first Christmas
life-sized wooden soldier.

Now, now hear me out

on this.

Hear me out on

this because when you go
down this rabbit hole,

it's a long journey.

Okay?

Uh, with my sign shop experience and using
all raw materials, I've been able to build

a seven foot wooden soldier for my kids,
and they're absolutely in love with it.

Now, I'm not finished.

It's, I will reveal the finished product
on Christmas Eve, but this thing.

Is huge.

It's made out of all raw materials.

There's nothing bought from, you know,
a supplier I'm using like those, uh,

you know, like those banner tubes
and the vinyl rolls for its arms and

legs and doing

it very sparingly, but it is
coming out looking awesome.

I'm I, I'm excited to see it now, dude.

I, I can imagine your
kids are stoked for it.

I'm using some of

my, uh, experience working with
raspberry Pies and I, I got some

of the Christmas music playing.

I got, oh no, I got his arms
gonna move a little bit.

His eyes are gonna have LED lights in it.

It, I'm, I'm, I'm, like I said, you
go down a deep, like I said, you can

go down a deep rabbit hole and make
like, uh, a very nice put together.

Soldier to the point where it's
like, man, can I sell this thing?

Like, can, can, can

I make

these?

Don't do it.

Don't

do.

And can I make a business outta this?

And, and, and in a lot of regards, that's
a great segue into today's, uh, episode

here is what, and what we're gonna be
talking about with our guests about like

how you, how easy it is to take something

and make another business model out of it.

It was like a

byproduct.

Maybe this time of the year, I'm thinking
about selling seven foot wooden soldiers.

Wooden

soldiers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a good market.

Maybe.

Maybe that could be my new

franchise business.

Who knows?

I tried that once with cornhole boards.

Like we built a set using our flatbed
printer, like we had some half inch birch.

You know, real smooth finish.

Uh, we printed it direct on the
flatbed, so you could still see the

wood grain coming through on the ink.

Oh, that's cool.

And we, uh, like we built these
cornhole boards and then we made the

mistake of having a client come in.

They were like, holy crap,
did you guys make these?

We were like, yeah, we did.

And they were like, okay, let I, I'm,
I'm smashing records in our business.

Um, this was a, a coal mine at the time.

Um, they were smashing
records in their business.

They were like, Hey, I wanna order
35 sets of these for my guys.

So being, you know, Hey,
like the, the sign guys.

We were, can you guys make those for us?

Yeah, of course we can.

Great.

So then the sign shop turned into wood
shop for like two weeks or a week.

I can't remember how long it took us to
produce those, but that's a, a lesson

that I learned of, you know, just because
it's fun on the surface doesn't mean it's

necessarily profitable on the back end.

Profitability, fun.

It all goes into it, right?

I mean, I think I have a similar story.

It wasn't quite cornhole boards.

My, my ex-business partner, he wanted
to make, uh, cutting boards, engraved,

cutting boards, you know, and I'm like,
ah, pretty sure you can get that at

like, in any store or online store.

But it's amazing the raw materials
that we use here in the sign

industry with the tools that we have.

How much is it really capable
to generate revenue in

other ways?

It could be, it could

be acrylic plaques, it could be
cornhole boards, it could be wooden

soldiers, wooden soldiers, sneeze
guards from during the pandemic, right?

Oh

yeah.

I mean, absolutely.

How can I forget about that?

How easy was it to like
laser cut acrylic to make a.

Sneeze guards, uh, like face shields,

what, whatever, whatever it was in bulk.

I mean, you can really do a lot.

And that's what we're gonna be
talking about here today, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Without further ado,
let's bring on our guest.

Alright guys, we are back with
today's guest, Paul Gardner of Sign

Enterprise and like 35 other businesses
that, that I find fascinating.

Paul, welcome to the podcast.

Super happy

to have you.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you and I have, uh, chased
each other to get you onto

the podcast for a long time.

Um, really enjoyed all the conversations
that we've had leading up to this.

And like every time that we chat,
you've started something new.

You got your hands in something new.

You know, I was just telling Peter about
a few of those things before we jumped on.

But for the audience, you know, give us.

Your story, give us the story of Sign
Enterprise just for some context.

Sure.

So, uh, this is actually busy
season for me because all of my

businesses are busy right now.

And, uh, originally started
out in the sign business.

I got into the sign business.

It was, it was kind of a, uh,
a hobby more than anything.

I was, uh, I, I used to race
go-karts when I was a kid.

And then I graduated
into racing, uh, cars.

And if you know anything about
the racing industry, you're

constantly pairing up stuff.

So you're constantly going into
the sign shop, the local sign shop.

And, uh, so I got familiar with
printers and plotters and whatnot.

So.

You know, this is in my youth.

This is as a teenager, and I, I, I, I
was using this local sign shop and, uh,

I would go in there and, you know, just
try to make it as cheap as possible.

So I, I started designing stuff myself,
which I probably made it hard on him.

Um, it's kind of funny because the
guy that owned that sign shop, uh,

did work for me up until a year ago.

He, he retired, but he, uh, I bought
him, I bought his company out later.

But anyways, uh, I, I, I probably
made it really hard on him, but

I tried to design my own stuff.

I'd come in there, you know, with the,
the idea and the concept, and I would

tell him, Hey, don't worry about it.

I'll weed the vinyl.

Just give me, give every, you
know, I would try to make it as.

Absolutely cheap as possible.

And back then, you know, people
weren't printing, they were

airbrushing to get the effect, you
know, that's what they were doing.

Sure.

And so it was a whole other, you
know, talk about labor intensive.

It was major labor

intensive.

Let me ask you one question
before you continue.

Did you ask him to sponsor you?

Yeah, I did a million times.

Yeah.

I started hating race car drivers
after I became a side guy.

It's funny because, uh, you, I had all
these friendships within the racing world

and of course when I opened a sign shop,
I realized to my real friends' work,

'cause most of 'em did not wanna pay.

You know, I was like, man, I
could sponsor every one of y'all

and it'd be broken in two months.

So,

yeah.

No, that's a awesome origin story, man.

I love

it.

That that's where it kind of started.

And then, um, I was just looking
for a, you know, a, a summer job.

Uh, ended up working at a,
uh, a transportation company.

And that transportation company
was hiring a sign company from

New York every year to come.

They would to buy up a hundred
trailers every, every summer.

And those a hundred trailers were
getting, you know, decals were being

installed by this company outta New York.

And so I looked at the owner, I said,
I know how to install those graphics.

I had no idea what I was getting
into because I'm thinking, okay,

I've done race cars and go-karts.

I can do this.

Not thinking about the fact that
these are 53 foot trailers, but

the, and again, this is back before
printers, you know, were relevant

and there wasn't before Air aggress.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and we were using, you know,
hardcore 3M reflective vinyls.

It was, it was intense.

Um, but I got, I became
a really good installer.

I mean, obviously I learned the
hardest way you could possibly

learn how to install a vinyl, but,
um, I got really good at it and.

I got out when I, when I finished
college, my wife and I got married.

It was, it was just about a month
before we got married and I was

working in corrections and I hated it.

I just hated corrections and
yeah, I was working at six at

night till six in the morning.

I had 12 hour shift.

And we live in Virginia.

My wife works in DC at the time and she
was leaving work by 6:00 AM not getting

home till 6:00 PM And so I was like,
oh, we're gonna, we're gonna end up in a

divorce our first year 'cause we don't see
each other, but like three times a month.

Yeah, right.

So it's like, this is terrible.

And so I said something to a buddy
of mine, I said, I'd love to start

a sign company if I had money.

And yeah, that's just my thought because
I have no idea how to start a business.

And I looked at him, I go, your parents
know all about starting businesses.

Maybe they can help us because
they ha owned a carpet business.

So all of a sudden he's my partner.

Well, that lasted one week.

He fell out.

He doesn't wanna do it.

He just wants to stay at home.

And I ended up borrowing $5,000
and I bought a used plotter,

um, and some equipment.

And that's how I got my start.

And so move forward, you know, 20 plus
years since then, I've acquired, um,

six sign companies, um, companies that
usually were struggling, having problems.

I hired them for their people
and brought the owners in.

And then I also acquired some
companies that were doing fairly well.

Just the, the, the ownership
was at the point of retirement.

And so that helped me,
you know, grow quickly.

And then through the sign industry, just
like we were speaking about before, it's

like if you learn the sign industry, you
can pretty much get into any industry.

And since then I've started,
um, a few different companies.

Um, I did end up purchasing a, a
design build landscape company.

We do a lot of entrance monument signs.

And so we were hiring the Masons
to come in and do all that work

and we're doing the landscape and
we were doing the whole package.

So we were hiring and
outsourcing that work.

So what I decided to do is
just bring that internal And

so I was able to buy a company.

I'd been around for 25 years locally.

I.

The owner retired and, um,
I took that company over.

And then I'm really big into the
lighting industry here recently,

and the announcement hasn't been
made yet, but I just bought, um, the

largest permanent light, uh, in, uh,
company in, in the United States.

And they're out of Texas.

And I definitely am gonna introduce
this to the sign industry, you know,

and over the next year it's something
that the Christmas light industry, so

I'm in the Christmas light industry,
which if you know anything about

the Christmas light industry, it's
really blown up the last few years.

Everyone's, you know, they even
have television shows about it now.

So I.

And

No, no.

Short part of your own as well, right?

Like

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's, it's, it's, it's pretty fun.

And it's, it's an intense business.

It's a whole nother dynamic of, of
people that you're dealing with, but

it's the same end result, you know, it's
like you get the same kind of baggage,

you get the same kind of responses.

It's, but it's a different,
it's a different vibe.

It's obviously seasonal.

Um, and then I also am in the
landscape, uh, lighting business.

So all that led me to this permanent
light, uh, industry that I'm in now.

And so now I'm, I'm, I'm, I
bought 50% of a company that has

been around for, uh, 11 years.

And, uh, the, the manufacturer's
doing really well.

They have been.

Primarily selling to the Christmas
light and landscape lighting industry.

And so when I got my hands on, I'm
like, this is more sign business

worthy because we have the equipment.

And so I bought into the
company specifically to push

it to the, the sign industry.

And, you know, the sign business has
definitely opened up a whole, you

know, avenue of opportunities for me.

And I, I've, I've, I've expanded the
sign business along the way, and it's

allowed me a lot of opportunities.

I just, I, I embrace the opportunities
I've had, I've had a lot more

opportunities than I even speak of.

But, you know, in the business,
in the sign business, you

work in business to business.

So all you meet is business owners.

And you constantly are, are, are
being consumed with ideas and

so your mind just keeps running
and my, my mind runs nonstop, so

Yeah.

Clearly, clearly.

No.

Yeah.

And, and I can't wait to get
into all of those things.

Um, if we back up to talk about
like, signed enterprise, just just

for a little bit, like, like roughly
what's the, the size of the shop,

what are you guys doing sales wise?

How many people do you have?

So we have, I don't know the exact
count of people because we have

three locations, but it's around
50, um, 50 people, employees.

Okay.

Yeah.

Gotcha.

Um, as far as, uh, sales, our central
location, which is our, our main location,

we, we do between five and 10 million.

Gotcha.

Okay.

So when all the sales come in,
we'll be between five and 10.

I think this year we're gonna end up being
around 7 million for the one location, so.

Gotcha.

As far as our, you know, as far as the way
we work, so we have a central location,

which is where I work out of, that's where
we manufacture about 90% of our signage.

We have another location that
really is just an office.

That location is just
south of us, about an hour.

And then we have another location.

We manufacture about 10
to 15% of our signage.

And, uh, that location has, you know,
we have, we're fully outfitted to

manufacture install, and we have offices
there and we have sales reps outta there.

So we, we, we separate the businesses
for different reasons, but they

contribute all as one company and
they're all under one umbrella.

Gotcha.

And, and like, what type of
projects are you guys doing?

Like, you know, who are the
clients that you work with?

Um, you know, there's, there's
obviously like various facets to

the sign industry, so I just wanna
clarify for the listeners out

there.

So, when I first got into the industry,
honestly, my ideal client was the

guy that wanted a cruising, a memory
sticker on the back of his car, or

the race car driver who wanted a free
sponsorship, you know, just from decals.

Uh, I have definitely
graduated past that point.

And, you know, I, I
enjoy the decal industry.

I enjoy vinyl, I enjoy
banners, I enjoy yard signs.

There's a lot of money in that industry.

But specifically in my area, what I
noticed is there was, um, a lack of

good, knowledgeable professionals in
the, uh, lighting part of the industry,

uh, the electrical more specifically.

And at the time when I got into
it, LED wasn't even really a thing.

It was kind of coming into the horizon,
but it was a thing that I started

embracing early on and said, okay, I could
see this take off in the sign industry.

And I can remember specifically all the,
the locals were using Neon and I can

remember specifically talking to those
guys and they all, you know, rejected

the idea that LED would take over.

And so I was like, you know, if I'm right
on this, and based on the technology, you

know, that I'm seeing advances in this
industry, most of the time the old school

sign guy gets stuck thinking he's right.

And I'm like, it's probably the same thing
in the lighting industry, even though at

the time I know nothing about lighting.

And so I'm like, I'm gonna learn
as much as I can about LEDs.

So I went overseas.

I went to China out of all places,
and I was like, I wanna learn

about LEDs as quickly as possible.

And so if you've ever been over
to China and you go to Guango or

Shenzhen, you'll be consumed with
manufacturers in the lighting industry.

I, I, I've visited in about 10
days, I've visited probably about 50

locations of manufacturers, different
type of lighting manufacturers.

Wow.

And so that opened my world
up to the lighting industry.

And so I got, I got used and familiar
with the terms early on that it, it, when

people were manufacturing this locally
and, and, and in the sign shops, I was

very familiar with what they, they were
producing and what was good quality, what

wasn't, because that really gave me an
advantage in that part of the industry.

And, um, I think from there, I don't
know exactly when this happened, but

I will say that I went to ISA and I,
I would say this is probably not that

long ago, maybe about 12 years ago.

So it was after I started the electrical.

But, um, I mean, I guess 12 years
is a long time, but, um, it's,

it goes by so quick for me, it
just seems like it was yesterday.

But I can remember we went out to dinner
one night and I always, I always laugh

about this because we, we were, um, we,
we were sitting at a table outside on

this balcony and all these people were,
and I was with a bunch of sign guys.

Like, I just got invited to this impromptu
dinner with a bunch of sign guys and

I only knew like two or three of them.

And, uh, we're sitting on this balcony
and all these people are flooding

in and I'm like, what's going on?

And they were like, oh, there's
gonna be a Snoop Dogg concert.

So I actually was, I called my wife,
I'm like, I'm in a Snoop Dogg concert.

I'm literally, I'm like, that's not my,
you know, that's not my, my, my style.

So my wife was, it was kind of funny
'cause we were there for like two and

a half hours at that table, but we
literally had a front row seat, Snoop

Doggs, like running underneath and
us, that's where the, the stage was.

Sure enough, I, I got the, the,
the, the restaurant said, y'all

are so lucky y'all get this table.

Everybody wants this table.

And, but our party was so big,
they had to give us the table.

But during those conversations,
listening to Snoop Dogg, it was hard.

But we, listen, I, I listened intently.

There was this guy, and I don't know
him to this day, I can't remember his

name, but I remember we were exchanging
and we were just sharing pricing, like

where, what's your minimum pricing?

And at the time, I don't know specifics
about where I was and where he was, but

I remember we were like night and day.

And he specifically was like, double what?

I was on his hourly rates,
on his man rates, everything.

And I was just like,
okay, well why is that?

Because this guy lives in a
very, you know, um, rural area.

He doesn't live in a area where it's,
um, overly populated with businesses.

He said he has to drive for the average,
you know, good business an hour.

And here I am overwhelmed
by business opportunities.

I'm thinking to myself that
just doesn't make sense, right?

And so when I told him that, he looked
at me specifically and he said, Paul,

you seem like a pretty smart guy.

He goes, but man, your
pricing is way too low.

He goes, I'm telling you right
now, you could get double.

For what you're producing,
the knowledge you have.

And I thought to myself, if this guy's
right, then I'm really missing out.

This is where the struggle is happening.

So with without hesitation, I kid you not,
I mean this is, that was the lecture I got

and that was like a weekend or whatever.

I come back Monday morning and
I doubled my prices overnight.

I doubled my prices.

Wow.

Across the board.

And no exaggeration.

People have asked me this a few times
'cause I'm also, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a

business coach and I coach businesses
and I tell them, it's all in our

heads how often we believe that,
you know, if, if we're delivering.

Now, this is what I always tell people.

If you're delivering the exceptional
service and you're giving people

the type of experience they expect.

You should be able to raise your prices
and there shouldn't be any pushback

because if you are attracting those
type of clients that demand that type of

service, they're willing to pay for it.

And so at the time I was really, even
though I was young and I was learning

still, I was still delivering a much
better product than the competition.

I knew that, like up here, I, I could
tell, I was like, I'm confident what

I'm delivering, but I wasn't confident.

Well, you took pride in it, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, like, we talked to so many
owners that do, like, they take deep

pride in what they do every single day.

And it shows that it is just Yeah.

Up here

though.

Yeah.

It's like, I mean, I, I want it
to be the best, Brian, just to

be able to deliver to my clients
because I know what I would expect.

Right?

And so I just examined myself daily
and I was like, what can I do better?

What can Paul Gardner
do better to deliver?

And so I tried to get all the
education I could, as much as

I could, as often as I could.

And, uh, when this guy told me
this, I, I, I, I, I went in and I,

I looked at the girl in the office.

I was like, all right, we
need to double our prices.

And she's like, what?

I'm like across the board.

And I said, we're gonna
have a minimum rate.

I do remember this part, our minimum rate,
now it's now it's more, but our minimum

rate at the time was gonna be 3 25.

So no matter what, we were gonna be $325.

And I don't know what we were at the time.

I wanna say we were only like $90,
like $90, you know, something simple.

And I said, we gotta have a two
hour minimum on every job we do.

And so when we did that,
we implemented that change.

Immediately I'm thinking to myself, okay,
I'm gonna sacrifice some business here.

I'm gonna lose some business.

But I can honestly look at both
of you and say, I don't know

of any business we ever lost.

As a matter of fact.

We started the, the, we started
just pounding the pavement and

getting more and more work.

And we were so busy.

I don't think if we did lose business,
I noticed it because the compounding

effect it was having, raising our prices,
I was able to bring in more revenue.

I was bringing in better people.

I was bringing in better equipment.

I was educating myself quicker.

There was so many things that happened
along that journey of that price

transition that I, I'd never looked back.

I never even thought
that was a bad decision.

And so I've constantly
increased my prices since.

And our, our minimum prices is even higher
now, and no one, you know, bats an eye.

And I know the type of service that
we're delivering, the quality of service

we're delivering is better than it was.

Therefore I have every right
to demand that type of price.

And plus there was covid, so we
jacked the prices up a lot then.

Yeah.

As, as you had to.

No, I mean, that's a great point because
it, like, obviously you do have to

have that, that level of service that
you're providing in order to do that.

But like so many times we sell ourselves
short of like, just like, oh, no

way we could raise prices on this.

Or like, oh, we can't get
it in, in this market.

And for a lot of owners, like
that's not the case, you know?

Mm-Hmm.

It is just not the case.

Like, would you, like, it sounds
like that was a, like a pivotal

moment in like your signed career.

Like would, would you say that's like the
turning point for everything else to, to

come?

Yeah.

Yeah, definitely.

So, I, you know, I, I plan on, so
all my companies right now are under

an umbrella of Sign Enterprise.

And so we, we've constantly
separated those companies.

Over the years, and this, this
is the last year that Elf Pros

will fall under the umbrella.

And so it'll go on its
own here, uh, next 2024.

So in each case where I've
started a new business, now I,

I, I look at the average market.

I look at the average market,
and I'm like, what is, what is,

what is the industry asking for?

What is the industry willing to pay?

And I take all that information
and I'm like, okay, everything

based on the averages.

What can I do to make it better?

And then based on that,
how can I charge more?

And so when I started, just to
give you an example, I started my

Christmas site business four years ago.

We started out the highest priced
Christmas light installer in the area.

And, and we've increased our
prices in the last four years.

To this day, we're the highest price.

We actually have guys that are
pricing the same type of work that we

are doing for a third of the price.

And I know this because it's
very, that industry is, it's not

as broad as the sign industry.

There's only a certain type
of applications, right?

And so the pricing margins are
very transparent and people

put that stuff out there.

And so a lot of people tell us,
you know, we're the most expensive.

And we understand that's
not our type of clientele.

But here's the thing, the type of
service we're delivering and the

experience that people get with that
service is, is not even comparable.

And we know that.

We know the type of quality,
the product that we're using.

We know that a lot of the manufacturers
of products that they're using are

just outsourced overseas, which
most of the LED products are.

It's just, you gotta know the different
things about diodes, chips, you gotta

know different things about casings,
the type of wiring you're using.

And I know all that stuff.

So.

When I am delivering a product to my
client, I'm guarantee 'em that this

is the most premium product you can
get your hands on right now when a lot

of the guys, they don't know enough
information to know the difference

between that bulb and the next bulb.

And so, yeah.

Then on top of that, the type of service
we're giving them is exceptional.

You know, it's, it's, it's the Starbucks
of the Christmas light industry.

You know, we're gonna go out of our
way to perform and give them this,

you know, this ambiance of ideas and
gets the Christmas spirit growing

and, and, and we do so many things.

Like one of the things
we do is every year I.

We go back to the, um, to,
to the customer's home a

couple days before Christmas.

So we're actually doing this in a week.

And, uh, we'll deliver, uh, I don't
know if you've heard of nothing, bunt

cakes, but, uh, we do all their signage.

So I made a deal with the owners
and we, we do a little barter there.

And so we deliver bunt cakes
to all of our customers.

So we deliver hundreds of bunk cakes,
and of course we have a mascot with the

Elf Pros theme, and his name is Winky.

And so we show up in the mascot
with the bunt cake and kids love it.

And it's just that kind of exceptional
experience that people expect

nowadays because we live in a
world of experiences, whether it's

online, whether it's in person.

And I read this book years
ago, it's called the, uh,

um, the Experience Economy.

Um, and, and Joseph Pine wrote that book.

And the, the idea is to kind of.

Turn your business into the
same concept that Di Walt

Disney turned Disney World into.

Yep.

Yeah, it's like to make
everything an experience.

And so when you go to Walt, you
know, when you go to Disney, anybody

that's been the magic Kingdom,
it's quite the experience, right?

And it doesn't matter if you're
four years old or if you're 40

years old, the experience is grand
and you're gonna enjoy yourself.

And so we try to do the same
thing within every industry I own.

Yeah.

And, and when you do that, like
the price doesn't matter, right?

Because No, it doesn't, you know,
like I, I've taken my kids to Disney

several times, and like my wife and
I have like, you know, obviously like

it's an expensive proposition, like,
you know, you know, going well into it.

Like, like, hey, this is gonna take a nice
chunk of change to do what we wanna do.

But like, when you're in the
moment, like you don't blink

an eye about it, like Yeah.

You know, to, to see like the look on your
kids' faces or, or just have that, that

experience as you mentioned, like, like
the money doesn't matter at that point.

And like, how do you guys.

How do you work that into
like the sign side, right?

Because, so the sign side on the
Christmas light, you're, you're selling

to consumers, you know, they, they
want to, you know, impress their own

families, impress the neighbors, you
know, spread Christmas cheer, all of that.

But like, how do you work some of
that experience magic into the sign

industry?

So that is the challenge, right?

Because it's not the same.

You're dealing with, you're
dealing business to business.

You're not dealing with the, the,
you know, the homeowner who you

get to see, you know, the joy on
her face when you push the button.

It's like, you know, we always,
always think of ourselves as

like, um, what, what is it?

Chevy Chase's Christmas,
whatever that one was.

We plug it.

It's like we always do that.

We make the homeowner
come out, come watch this.

I'm always waiting for that
one where it doesn't work.

Yeah.

But you know, you get to see the
response because when we deliver the

cakes, when we send the emails out,
when we do the things on social media,

I mean, on our, on our Elf Pros,
um, uh, Facebook page, we're getting

50,000 engagements a week right now.

And so during Christmas,
that's phenomenal.

I mean, that's, that's a lot of,
and that's local, by the way.

That's a local engagement.

So that's, that's a phenomenal
amount of engagement in one week.

Whereas in the sign business,
I'm lucky if I get 50,000

engagements in a year, so Yeah.

Right.

It's like, okay, how do you, how
do you, yeah, you made a sign

who,

yeah.

So how do you create
that type of experience?

So it's definitely I'll, I'll be honest
with you, it's definitely something

I haven't injected into the mold of
the sign industry as much, but it's

something I'm definitely thinking
about, how can I create more of this

experience factor in the sign industry?

One of the ways I have done that is.

And I'll tell you, we do work for some
of the biggest companies in the United

States, and we actually do work for
some of the biggest sign companies.

And the one company who's, you know, one
of the more recognized companies in the

industry, they, they, they sent us a lot
of work and they, they recently told us,

uh, one, one of the PMs called me and
I guess he needed, he needed a favor.

And so he got my number.

He called me.

He said, look, I really need a favor
from you on, and your PM said y'all can't

do it, so I'm hoping you'll help me.

Someone told me to call you.

So I'm talking to him and he goes, wow.

He goes, I'm gonna be honest with you,
I've been with this company for 32 years.

And he goes, you have the highest rating.

And I've only seen this high
rating one time across the

board with other sign companies.

He said, we have a rating system
and you, your company has the

highest rating in our system.

You can possibly get.

He says, I've only seen it
one other time in 32 years.

So in my opinion, I'm like, okay, we're
creating a great experience for people

by just communicating well, because
I feel like that's what we do really

well, is our communication factors.

Mm-hmm.

Are, are, are prevalent in every meeting.

Like, how did we do here?

What did we not do well, you
know, how can we fix, fix this?

And we put systems in place.

So my, my opinion is everything,
every reaction should have a response.

So everything that happens now
needs, you know, we need to, we need

to, whether it's a negative thing
that happened or a positive thing,

now we need to respond to that.

What's the response to that?

And so.

When we have a, an exceptional install,
everything goes exactly as planned.

You know, we let the customer know,
Hey, this was an exceptional install.

This is a, everything
happened just as planned.

If things don't happen as planned,
you know, we let 'em know.

We let 'em know that, hey, there
were some, you know, barriers.

There were some things, obstacles,
but we got through it and, and, and,

and we finished a job and we got it
complete and everything looks great.

And so we, we communicate often.

We, we we're a big com uh, proponent
of using things like company cam.

I don't know if a lot of your clientele
is using that, but we use company Cam.

You know, I, I think I, I, I, I, in my
sleep, I'm getting pictures from people,

like literally my, but I, I company Cam
is going off the rails with us right now.

It's, it's like we use it in
all of our businesses, but that

information is information that.

The PM can instantly get updates on
the job, send it to the customer,

the customer's being told in real
time how things are going on a job.

I mean, the customer really that we're
speaking to might be in Texas, but

their location might be here local.

And so for them, that kind
of feedback and that type of

communication is, is unparalleled
to most people in the industry.

I'm not saying there's not other people
using company cam, it's just the way we

use it, I think is, is is not the norm.

And so that type of instant
communication, constant communication

has been the exceptional experience
that we've been delivering thus

far in the design industry.

I love to hear you say that because
that, like, communication is like one

of the biggest fail points or break
points or where just things fall apart

that I've seen for a lot of shops
that, that we've had on the podcast.

You know, we had, like Pete and I
have done a couple of, uh, interviews

with, with, uh, shop owners where
things are just falling apart

because of communication issues.

Like, hey, we're, we're not passing the
torch correctly to the next department

or communicating back to the client.

Um, but client communication being like
the most prevalent one of like, Hey,

here's all the details of the project.

We're just gonna squirrel ourselves away
for a couple days, come back with an

estimate like, Hey, do you want it or not?

And then like, oh, hey, here's
the mockups that we created.

Boom, boom, boom.

Then you don't hear from somebody else,
like, you know, what, what kind of systems

do you have guys have in place for that?

Like what, like how did
you get to that point?

You know, like, so obviously.

You know, uh, I would say aside
from company Cam, I guess, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, there's
a lot of things we use.

Um, I'll be honest with you, I'm not
even familiar with some of the apps

that we're using now because there's
some that we're using that have been

implemented by the leadership here that
I'm not, I don't even know how to use 'em.

We're using a product now called chirp,
and I'm not even familiar with how

it works, but it's basically, it's a
communication with the customer through

text, you know, and it constantly is
giving them, you know, updates and

it's o obviously at the end of the job,
it's letting them know the job's done.

It's communicating to
them how well did we do.

So we're getting that feedback.

Generally speaking, uh, people are
more prone to, um, communicate more.

Well.

I say generally speaking, I'm
not the best when it comes to

texting according to my wife.

So that's, so, so I'm more
of a phone call type of guy.

But I think the general population is
used to communicate and quickly and,

and responding promptly with a text.

So that's where chirp comes in is, and
you know, when you think about the design

industry, at least I haven't thought
about it until we started using this

particular, um, software, is that we
normally were communicating through email.

Email.

And to me that's a slow communication
anyways because, you know,

the person's gone for the day.

I've always, so when I was the
technician, when I was in the

field, my system was pick up the
phone after I'm done with the job.

Hey, your, your sign job's done.

You know, take one picture,
send it to 'em, you're good.

Now there's this whole
other system, right?

There's a hundred pictures
that go with that job.

There's constant communication, email,
phone calls, text messages, and I think

that's, you know, some of the things that
we've implemented over the years that

have been probably different than maybe
what the normal sign company is doing.

Um, I know that some of the other
softwares that we're using aren't

even relevant to the sign industry.

Um, some of the, some of the things
that we're, we're using are kind

of things that we would use in
other industries, and we've merged

'em over into the industry here.

The other thing that, you know,
we, we like to do is we like to

know ourselves what our staff
is doing on an hourly basis.

Like we wanna know what's going on.

And so we evaluate each job every day.

When it comes in, they have the
paperwork they turn in, and all that

gets uploaded onto the computers.

There's spreadsheets that we have that.

All that data is, uh, inputted by, uh,
an an individual and it goes to the PMs

and the PM can see, okay, did we allocate
enough time for each of those jobs?

I feel like one of the things in the
design industry, and you know, we,

we still struggle with this time at
times, our estimator has this idea

that a job's gonna take eight hours.

It's a full day's worth of work,
two crews, four men on the job.

And then it turns out
the job took 12 hours.

Well, 12 hours, four
times, four extra hours.

That's a lot of overtime.

That's a whole other day's
worth of work for a whole crew.

And so you can lose a
lot of money that way.

And so one of the things that we
constantly are doing is evaluating

how we're pricing things and are
our guys communicating to us.

Because, you know, it, you
guys have been signing industry

long enough to know it's like.

Most jobs are not what you, no matter
how good of a site survey you do,

they're not what you thought they
were until you start exposing things.

And so then all of a sudden you,
you run into, you run into problems.

And so one of the things that is
on our contracts is we make sure

this is very specific and they sign
it, is that, hey, all this pricing

is based on normal conditions.

And we actually talk about drywall
behind the wall, you know, exposed

walls versus non-exposed walls.

We talk about hitting rock.

We talk about things that you are
gonna run into in the, in the case that

you do run into 'em, that you already
have that in there in your contract.

So we do a lot of change orders, but
that all, that, the change order is only

effective if you communicate upfront and
all that language is in your contract.

Yeah.

And so you have to do that.

So

I'd like to interject here for
just a quick minute and, uh, ask

a couple of questions because I.

Ryan's been asking all of the

questions,

dude.

I, yeah man, I, I was, I was waiting

for you, man, and I'm
sitting here just with

waiting for an opportunity.

So I have some, I have a couple of
points here I'd like to ask about.

I would like to, I would like to
actually ask a very direct question here.

Uh, in your opinion, you've gotten
to five to, I think you said you're

gonna do $7 million this year,
so we'll use that number here.

So you're a $7

million.

That's the sign.

That's the sign company, but our combine
companies will probably do close to 10.

Okay.

So the sign company's

doing 7 million.

Right.

And you just mentioned a really
interesting piece here that comes up a

lot on our calls and, and certainly a lot
in my meetings with my clients is that.

Do you find it that you are
not I one of two reasons.

If you're questioning your pricing, I,
I find it that it's one of two reasons.

So I'm gonna ask you very direct,
which one do you think in your

business is something that affects

your company?

Is it

not charging the right rate
or not charging the right

amount of hours?

Hmm.

Well, let me put it to you this way.

I might not be able to answer
your question, but I might

answer it in a different way.

So, a lot of installs are specific to how
many hours are you working on those jobs,

but we do not price jobs based on hours.

Okay?

So let me give you an example.

And I, I, I, I've preached
just to a lot of sign guys.

I know.

So when you're doing work for
other sign companies, they

wanna know your hourly rate.

And I, I won't go into specifics,
but we have one contract and it's

a million dollar contract a year.

We do a million just for this one client.

They make us document, so
they have their own system.

We have to, when we get to the job site,
and they, and this is tracked, I mean,

they got GPS capability, they'll know
where there, they'll know when we leave.

So when we get on the site, we have to log
into their system, we're on site, we have

to then fill out their own spreadsheet.

That's different than ours.

Have to dot, you know, fill
in all the dotted lines.

And then when we leave,
we have to clock out.

So we, we red strap and we leave the site.

They want us to only use the hours that we
worked for that job to be, to be billed.

Is I, is that how one of your clients
are or is this just one specific one?

No, no, this is one client,
but they're, they're probably

first or second largest client.

I mean, they're, they're up there.

So this one client required this.

So just to give you a backstory on this,
I bought, I bought a company a few years

ago that had been around for a hundred
years and that was their biggest client.

When I looked at how they did
this, I had a problem with that.

And here's why.

It's because, first off, I pay
my installers a lot more than

local installers get paid.

I have the best working for me.

I also have the best equipment.

I mean, if you go outside, all
of our trucks are 2017 or newer.

You know, they're all five years old
or younger, and we have good equipment.

We also are fully outfitted.

We have some of the best tools and
we have some of the best training

I feel that the industry can allow.

And so when our guys go out, I'm confident
that they're gonna do it in a fraction

of the time than most saw installers.

So why should I be penalized knowing
that I'm gonna get it done in a

fraction of the time because I'm
providing the better equipment?

'cause I'm providing the better install.

So I've gotten far away from, now we
have our hourly rate internally, right?

So we have our internal hourly rate.

When someone calls us off, you
know, say it's just a random store

owner who has lights out, we give
'em a minimum charge and we tell

'em it's a two hour minimum rate.

That's a little different.

But when we're pricing jobs for
installs, or we're pricing jobs of

our own that we're manufacturing and
installing, we're pricing out on what

the value of that job is worth to us.

So a lot of the jobs, if you were to do
it hourly, you would only get paid like

600 bucks, but we're getting paid 1800
and it's just because we're doing it in

three hours versus, you know, a whole day.

Okay?

And so we know this going into it.

So we, I feel like most guys are
not doing it this way 'cause I've

talked to a lot of sign guys now.

I don't know what y'all, y'all
have experienced a lot more here

recently with your podcast and
the, the circles you guys are in.

I don't know what you guys are
seeing, but I'm seeing guys are still

doing everything based on the hour.

That's what I've been seeing.

Yeah.

It's, it's,

I think it's very normal to be
reliant on time and materials.

It's a, it's a, there is a
formula, there is a calculation

to how to become profitable.

I think for my question here, it was more,
you, you're not a $500,000 a year company.

You're not a million
dollar a year sign company.

And there are a lot of our clients,
a lot of our listeners here are in

that world of 2 million or a sub
2 million gross operation where

they're struggling like, what is,
why am I working my butt off here?

And, and.

At the end of the day, I have
nothing to show for it other

than my bills being paid.

And, um, I basically bought myself a job.

And there's been a lot of messages here
of, well, maybe you're not charging

enough and, or maybe you're not charging
enough hours or you're undervaluing

how long projects are going to take.

It is interesting to hear how a
shop, like yours is saying, I'm

pricing based off of internal value.

Uh, I would say that
that's not the normal.

I, I, I like, I love it.

I have met shops that do that.

I think Brian and I have a, a
colleague here that we know of.

I remember thinking of
one off the top of my head

that this

sign's gonna last you 20 years.

So it's, I'm putting a crazy price
on this project because that's what

it's worth to you, the customer.

Mm-Hmm.

Lots of, lots of really interesting
theories around pricing.

Uh, I wanted to, before we
got too far ahead, I wanted to

ask my second question here.

Uh, and you alluded to this.

Sign doing a change order
and, and having that ability

of pivoting,

uh, if the job went outside the
boundaries of a normal, uh, scope of work.

Now, that

is hard to do, right?

I would say that that's hard to do
if you've never mentioned it before.

The the, the job commenced, right?

If you're mentioning it midway
through or even after the job

is over, it's a hard sell.

So what are you doing in the
beginning to communicate that to

your customer on, you know, if this
happens, it's gonna be this price.

I mean, after all it is, they
are called estimates, right?

So this is your estimate and it's
estimated it could be this way, but if

it doesn't, it could be X, Y, and Z.

And how do you navigate

those waters?

So I think the biggest thing
is the upfront contract is

we, we emphasize the details.

In the bottom and we make them assignment.

And we are very specific to, to indicate
the fact that this is just an estimate

and it's based on normal conditions.

So we know specifically the two things
that we run into are when we're digging

a hole, if we're gonna run into rock,
if we're gonna run into boulders, if

we're gonna run into, if some type of
obstructive device that our equipment

won't dig through, then we're gonna
have a problem as, as a matter of fact,

recently we were in the mountains of
Virginia and we were digging, and we

didn't even make it two inches and we're
hitting like a boulder and it ended up

costing us, our cost was $16,000 to drill
through that, that rock, original cost

for that to the customer was $3,500 to
drill that hole and put the foundation in.

So we would've lost.

Or tell on that had we not
had the language we had.

And so the customer understood it.

It was a gas station, they
understood it, they realized that

they wanted to sign there, they
were gonna have to deal with it.

I feel like the other thing that you
run across more often than not is,

obviously most of the surveys, and
a lot of times we're not surveying

some of these jobs because we're
getting 20 locations at a time.

They want a simple survey
just for measurements.

We don't get into the inside of the
office space 'cause they don't want us

disrupting their, their work at the time.

So we might pull out a drop ceiling
tile or something just to see what's

behind there, but we still don't
know exactly what's behind that wall.

And I would say on a weekly basis,
we're running into, you know, o

obstacles on channel letter jobs where
you can't necessarily just throw the

whip in and pull it through the wall.

There's, there's.

I beams in the way.

There's, you know, there's separations
of, of, of, of roofs and, and, and,

and, and, uh, the, the office space.

And there's just things
that are unforeseen.

And in those cases, we always
contact the client immediately.

So it's our job to communicate to our PMs.

You know, the installer is
supposed to communicate to the PM

immediately when they realize this.

The first thing our guys are supposed to
do is go inside and start drilling and

one guy's on the inside, one guy's on the
outside and see what we're up against.

And as soon as possible, the
earlier you let know the better.

And the sooner you can communicate
that, normally we're not charging

a lot more, you know, it might be
an extra two hours worth of work.

Nine out of 10 times, you're
not gonna have disruption

in the job because of that.

There are a few instances, a
few times a year where someone's

like, well, we don't have.

The, the PO is what it is.

We gave you our full budget on that.

We don't have any room.

We've gotta go back to the client.

It's gonna take a little bit.

So then we give 'em an option.

Well, if we have to leave the job
site and come back, it's even gonna

cost an extra 600 bucks on top of
that, or whatever the case may be.

So all of a sudden that
changes the conversation.

They were like, okay, you know what?

We're gonna just accept
the responsibility on this.

Go ahead and do it.

And so I can think of very few instances
where we've had to leave the job site.

Most of the time they're going to pay
for it because they're going to have

much, you know, much more coming to them.

If they don't, it's gonna be more
difficult to get the job done later.

Yeah,

no, that's, that's great.

Hey, like to me, like the story here is
just like, you guys are way more prepared

than the average shop for all scenarios.

Like, we've got a
communication plan in place.

For anything.

Uh, basically like, hey, if,
if somebody loses a shoelace on

the job or like, hey, like, like
we've, we've got a, an action plan

for it.

I don't know if we're that good
'cause we were just talking about that

earlier where we have found that, you
know, we need to have an inventory of

truck equipment because sporadically
equipment ends up missing on a job site.

Hmm.

And things come off a, a truck, you
know, we've gotta have a system for that.

But this is, I mean, this is
part of the growing pains, right?

I mean, one of the advantages
to owning other businesses in

different industries is you, you
get exposed to other ideas, right?

And so I will say that a lot of the
ideas compliment the sign industry.

I would say they actually would be
better in the sign industry than

the current industry they're in.

I'm like, wow, why is the sign
industry not familiar with this?

Right?

Like the landscape lighting industry.

I learned a technique and something
in the landscape, uh, industry that.

Allowed for me to do things quicker and
easier and cheaper in the sign industry.

And so I think it's, you know, I don't
know, maybe I, being a serial entrepreneur

can have, its, it, its, its cons too.

But I feel like there's more pros to it
just because I get exposed to a lot of

different ideas from different worlds.

And those worlds might not even have
any relevance to the sign industry.

It just turns out most of what I'm
in is related to the sign industry.

'cause I'm in lighting or
manufacturing of some sort.

But I have learned as much, if not
more from people outside of our

industry when it comes to ideas
to implement within our industry.

Mm-Hmm.

And I feel like sometimes we're
so consumed with the ideas

of the guys in our industry.

I'm not saying that that's
a bad thing, by the way.

I think it's a great
thing you guys are doing.

But even interviewing out, interviewing
people outside of the industry might be

an option, you know, or something where
someone's just successful in business.

Bringing them onto the podcast
because that's where I've gotten a

lot of my intellect and my knowledge.

'cause I'm definitely, I'm
as blue collar as they come.

I grew up on a farm.

Problem solving was like kind
of my go-to, but problem solving

for me was a everyday occurrence.

I'm like, there's gotta be better ways.

And it was systems, it was like
implementing systems for everything.

Yeah.

So

problem solving.

Yeah.

Huge thing.

Like, you know, we've got probably
just a few minutes remaining.

I definitely wanna touch on that side
of it, man, because you, you've got all

these different businesses, but yet when
I look at 'em and when you describe them,

they all compliment each other very well.

And, and like, the big question
that I had coming into it was,

was this in, was that intentional?

Like, did you do that by design
or was it just like a, like a

Bob Ross like happy accident type

of thing?

Well, so I'm probably not your
traditional business owner.

I did not go to school for business.

Um, my major was criminal justice.

I had no foundation of or
understanding of how to run a business.

I, I was very passionate about
at the time, vinyl graphics.

I, I mean, it sounds so simple, not so
complex, but at the time it was right,

because vinyl was still kind of a newer
thing too, you know, in, in the nineties.

I mean, I, I remember when I
bought out Dowling Sign, which

was a hundred year old company.

I ha I have one employee who has worked
in the sign industry for 50 years.

Wow, he's 70 years old.

He started in the business for 20
years and he can tell you every story

about the advances in technology.

And it's an interesting story.

Lemme tell you, his interview
would be much better, I guarantee.

But he, you know, he would
tell me of all the advances.

And I think to myself, I remember when I
specifically was doing the airbrushing,

and I'm sure you guys have seen those
old methods where the guys would airbrush

the vinyl first, then go cut it, and
you had to align everything perfectly.

And it, it was quite the task.

But, you know, the, the reality is I
did all those things because I loved it.

I was passionate about it.

And then when I became, I, I guess,
a successful business owner in the

sign industry, I figured some things
out that I was like, you know what?

I enjoy building something
from nothing to something I.

So I started some other companies and
then I saw some struggling businesses

and I had some rapport with some
of the owners of those businesses.

So they had reached out to me, what
are you doing that I'm not doing?

And next thing you know, I'm
buying those companies out.

And when I saw the things they
weren't doing, it really shocked me.

I was like, you know, it doesn't
take it a rocket scientist.

'cause I'm definitely not one to figure
out that you have a communication

problem, you have a personnel problem.

I mean, when, when your guys, I mean, so
I have a no smoking policy at at work.

That sounds really like that's going
out on a limb in the sign industry.

Right?

I saw on some of the group pages,
that conversation got brought up

and I was like, you know, people
probably wouldn't wanna work for me.

But the reality is I don't, I mean, I have
a lot of smokers that work here, right?

I mean, I would say probably a
third of the staff probably smokes.

Um, I don't know who all of 'em are,
but I know who a few of 'em are.

But the, the fact is, what we found is
that it was distracting from the things

that need to get done during the day.

And it wasn't a professional outlook.

We were actually at complaints at times
where the installers were going out on

job sites and leaving the cigarette butts.

And, you know, it's just, I'm
unprofessional and I couldn't, I, I really

couldn't control it because I was saying,
guys, this is a bad business practice.

Don't do this.

Guess what?

Right.

A week later I'm getting a call.

Same thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and so what I found is that
there was no labor laws that told,

set indicated that I couldn't do this.

And when I looked into a lot of big
businesses to it, as a matter of

fact, the federal government does it.

So, you know, they have no smoking
policies, you know, and so what I

implement it is that, hey, is while
you're on the clock, while you're

driving our trucks, while you're
on job sites, while you're in our

facilities, you're not allowed to smoke
on your breaks and designated areas.

You're allowed to smoke.

And I can tell you this, that changed.

The, the, the pendulum a little bit
because all of a sudden I started

attracting certain individuals
that were like, you know what?

I wanna work around guys that are just
passionate about this business, love this

business, and want to get something done.

I'm, I'm, you know, and I found that
people shared the same type of passion I

did, even though they weren't the owner.

They, they, they loved the industry.

And so people all of a sudden just
were like a magnet to my company.

And so we attracted really
good, you know, um, employees.

And on top of that, we attracted
people outside of the industry.

I quit.

That's another thing, by the way, if I
ever was gonna suggest if I was gonna

start anywhere with some of these guys
that, you know, maybe are struggling,

don't always look within the industry.

I did that for so long and that was the
kryptonite that I didn't realize was

like hindering me from growing because I
was bringing in someone with bad habits.

And I'm not saying don't hire
within, I'm just saying look outside.

There might be good people out
there that are worth hiring and can

learn just about anything we do.

So I would definitely suggest that.

Going back to your, your, your
conversation with me earlier, Peter, is I

would have a hard look at the pricing that
most people are looking at and are they

looking at it as like, this is what fast
times is charging, this is what Joe signs.

Joe is down the street.

Yeah.

Is that what they're looking at?

Are they just average pricing?

Are they really looking at what
they are doing on a daily basis

to put out a good product?

Right.

Or they, or do they really understand
the, what it costs to do business?

Because if they're just looking at the
averages and everyone calls fast science

because they're like the model, right?

They have a huge, you know, they have a,
a, a, a few huge, uh, uh, platform to work

off of when it comes to average pricing.

But the reality is I'm probably not
gonna compete with them in certain

areas when it comes to pricing.

And so I don't use them
as my model for pricing.

I wanna deliver a particular product to
a particular client, and I wanna make

sure I understand my cost to do that.

And when I do, then I have to
understand the markups to be successful.

And the markups, everybody
is like, oh, just 50%.

You know?

I'm like, no, no.

Yeah, yeah.

It's 50% won't get you anywhere, so, no.

Yeah, I

love that.

Um, and because it, it, you know, when
you think about it, when it boils down to

it, the same product, the same sign to a
different client holds a different value.

So there's two sides of the coin,
and that's definitely one of

the things that, that we preach.

Like you have to know your
numbers, like what does it

cost to actually deliver this?

But the rest of it is up
for interpretation, right?

Depending on who the client
is or what the job is.

You know, are you dealing with Joe's
Pizza down the street that has one

location, or are you dealing with a,
like a national chain of pizza shops?

Yep.

You know, like, like their tolerance
as far as price is totally different.

I, I'll tell you too, that
something that really helped

me is when I was doing a job.

For a larger corporation.

They sent me the sign package,
so it was a modeled sign package

that every location I had to do.

And I asked specifically, I said,
what is your budget for this?

And they told me what corporate's
budget guidelines are for those signs.

I was blown away.

It was actually the opposite
of what you would think.

It was much higher than what I
would've originally priced it at.

Then I realized I was
selling myself short.

I, that was like the a moment for me where
I was like, wow, if they're doing this all

over the country, then how am I selling
myself this short when I live in an area

where I know is growing and can afford it?

And so I realized I was
undervaluing myself.

And then I started understanding
what it cost to really do business

too, because all this time I was
just average pricing and I was like,

obviously I'm putting a lot more
emphasis on the quality of the product.

I'm delivering a better product.

But yeah, I'm pricing like
the guys down the street.

That's not, that's not a good
way to, to run a business.

Well, uh, I think we're about at time.

I, I don't wanna keep you, Paul.

I know you're super busy.

I would love to do this again sometime
soon, man, because it like, ah, I feel

like we could chat for days about it.

Yeah.

Um, what's, Hey, one question that we
always ask everybody to kind of wrap

things up, like, what's, what's the
future for you, for your business?

Like, is, you know,
you've got a soapbox here.

Like is there anything you want to, to say
to the audience or do you wanna close with

Well, I have six kids, so my goal, my goal
right now is to get them out of school

and, you know, starting their own careers.

And, um, you know, my focus right
now isn't on retirement or what to

do, you know, uh, 20 years from now.

My focus really is to just
continue to build the businesses

so they can run themselves.

I, I, I'm very blessed.

I don't have to go into the sign shop.

I do it because I love
going into the sign shop.

I, I, it took me years to figure
out the model of allowing myself to

not be the guy that had to be there.

And that to me is the key, if any,
I don't care if you are running

a $2 million shop or $20 million
shop, it wouldn't matter to me.

I think you need to set that as your goal.

Make it so you don't
have to be there 24 7.

I ran myself ragged and Peter, I
believe you, you, you've owned your

own company yourself and you know,
you guys know all too well how you

can be a slave to the business.

Oh yeah.

It's all consuming.

All consuming.

No, and and, and I don't know if you
guys know this or aware of this or not,

the suicide rate is higher for business
owners than it is for an average employee.

The divorce rate is higher, and
there, there's a reason for that.

And it's because we become so attached
to the business and, you know,

we're all, we all as, as, as men,
we wanna provide for our families.

I think that's probably my
goal, ultimately, right?

That's, I mean, before being
successful and being a millionaire

and all these things, I wanna be, I.

A provider to my family, I wanna
make sure they have a home.

I wanna make sure they
have food on the table.

So a hundred percent you think when
you're, you think when you're at work, you

know, at eight o'clock, nine o'clock, 10
o'clock, midnight, and I, I'm not gonna

ask 'cause I already know the answer.

All of you have probably at some point
done the all-nighter and I feel constantly

regretful for those times I did that
because I didn't know what I didn't know.

And it was just simple little things.

I had to implement changes
within my own business.

It was all self-inflicted.

The reason I was staying at work
after five o'clock and when I made

my priority, i, i time blocked.

So I said, you know what, if my
priority is my family, then I'm gonna

make sure the majority of my time is
contributed to them on a weekly basis.

And I would encourage anyone who's
struggling with that to, to whatever

you gotta do, if you gotta get up an
hour earlier, if you've gotta force

yourself to leave an hour earlier,
whatever you've gotta do, start time

blocking your time for your family.

And it will force you.

And I'm, I'm sure you guys have, uh,
done this yourself When you've gone to,

to Disney, when you know you're leaving
the next week for a vacation, you're able

to get a lot more work done that week.

Mm-Hmm.

Because, you know, you don't wanna
have to deal with it on vacation.

Well, you just gotta learn how
to do that on a weekly basis.

How can I get more work done and less
time so I can, you know, attribute

the majority of my time to my family?

And so that's, that's what I
would encourage anyone to do.

That's what I've done.

That, that has allowed me to open these
other businesses and continue to do that.

But I'm never, I'm never at a
point where I've become complacent

and say, oh, I figured it out.

I'm still, I'm still learning,
you know, listening to you like.

Your podcasts and other podcasts that
are out there getting as much education.

'cause guess what?

Next week you might have a guest on
here that might give me that idea

that I've never thought of, and
save me another hour of my week.

So that's all it takes.

That's the reason why we

do what we do.

Even if it you, you're probably
not the average viewer.

The average listener is not gonna
sit here and listen to an hour

worth of knowledge they might grasp.

A, a nugget here or two.

And, and, and that's why I do it because
I, I come away with every one of these

episodes and, and, and I, and I've
learned here something here today.

Uh, but, but again, I've

seen Peter's notes, man.

They're like, if you are, if
each episode after he is done,

if you are listening to this
and, and you're thinking like,

how do, how do I grow myself
to a five, $10 million company?

You probably could learn a lot
from just listening to what

you've discussed here today, Paul.

So I wanted to say
thank you for coming on.

This has been great for me.

Uh, I, I think we should definitely
have you on again and, and, and

let's talk some more about some
of these businesses that you have.

Maybe you'll be in another
business by then, who knows.

But, uh, happy to have you on here
and thanks for jumping on our, uh,

on the Better Sign Shot podcast here.

Yeah, well, I appreciate it.

I appreciate what you guys do.

Keep, keep doing it.

And, uh, I, I wish you the best.

When's the,

when's the announcement
on the lighting company?

So before ISA.

Okay, so before INA.

Yeah, for sure.

So are you guys gonna be there?

That's the plan.

Okay.

Well hopefully we'll, but definitely
keep us on the loop on that.

Um, happy to spread the gospel.

Yeah, yeah.

No, absolutely.

It's, it's gonna, it's gonna be good.

I can tell you this, I've only been doing
that for a little period of time here,

and it is a money maker for sign guys.

I mean, really, truly, I'm
not just saying that because

I'm about to push the product.

It, it, it is something that
sign guys can do in their sleep.

It really is Awesome.

I look forward to it.

Paul, thanks for coming on, man.

Alright guys.

Fountain of knowledge.

Super excited.

We could do

this.

Yeah.

See you.

Thank you very much.

All right, bye-Bye.

Take

care, man.

Alright guys, that's the episode.

Wow, what a doozy.

Um, I, I feel like we could have
probably talked to Paul for like

three days at a time here, but,
uh, Pete, rapid fire takeaways.

Yeah.

Well, I mean, let's talk
about the obvious one.

The obvious one being how easy it is
to get into the lighting business.

I'm not too familiar with this area, but
as somebody who has taken my service,

my sign service vehicles and used them
to hang my own Christmas lights, I mean,

like, yeah, if you could make a business
out of that, uh, that sounds phenomenal.

I'm sure we could have gotten into like
all the processes and, you know, it

is a totally different business model
and I would've liked to have heard a

little bit more, come to think of it
on, you know, how he structures that

business versus his sign business.

You know, how different
those worlds could be.

But ideally you buy the supply, you use
your truck, you put on another shirt, you

go outside and you hang some lights on
people's, on people's houses, and then

you gotta go and take those lights down.

I think that that's part of the model too.

If I had to guess, it's a, it's
not just installing, it's removing.

So, you know, what do
those rates look like and.

I think it could be a great
money maker for a lot of shops

with, with bucket trucks.

If you have more than one.

It's a great way to get them out into the
service area and start making some money.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's just super excited about
that side of it, or, yeah.

I wish we had more time to dive into
that, but, uh, for me, I think the, the

biggest takeaway is Paul was just like,
Hey, this guy imparted the wisdom on me.

I need to double my prices.

Like, let's not waste time on it.

Like I, I go back and double my prices.

Right.

Like, for me, I, I think
like increasing your pricing.

I, I don't think we've talked to a shop
owner yet that we weren't like, don't.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Like, Hey, you need to increase your
prices or you should increase your prices.

Uh, and what was that?

I don't think I've ever given that advice.

Like, no, you need to lower your
prices because you're too high.

Not once.

Yeah.

I,

I don't think I.

Say, I think I could say the same,
you know, maybe you'll deal with a

client that's, or a shop owner that's
10% lower than they should be, 15%

lower than they should be, but double.

I mean, that takes a lot of,
that takes a lot of guts.

It also takes a lot of self-awareness.

Like he seemed pretty confident in
the quality of his work, you know?

Yeah.

And he's, he, some of the other takeaways,
just minor ones for me, where he did say

that he's like the top paying sign shop
in the area, so he only hires the best,

you know, and that, that is interesting.

That is interesting.

If you're gonna be that top paying
guy, you gotta produce the best, but

you also gotta charge the, the most.

So there are some balances to
that, that, uh, I would love to

ask him on our, on our next time.

But he was a great guest,
a great entrepreneur, a

great, uh, sign shop owner.

And, uh, I think a lot of our
shop listeners here can, can

learn from, from Paul and, and
what we've discussed here today.

All right,

let's, let's take it out guys.

That's the episode.

If you are interested in being
a guest on the podcast, hit us

up at [email protected].

And if you are a shop
owner, join our community.

It's free.

We have a Facebook group.

Uh, there'll be a URL somewhere in
the description, like it is free for

owners and leadership of sign companies.

Uh, we screen all, everybody that
comes through the door, so it is a safe

space to talk about all these things
we talk about on the podcast, except

you could talk about your own business.

And that's it.

Um, we look forward to seeing
you on the next episode.

So that's the episode.

I hope you enjoyed it.

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