Better Sign Shop Podcast

Bryant Gillespie: All right.

This is Bryant and
welcome to the inaugural.

Fantastic, better sign shop podcast.

My co-hosts Peter.

Karuna's the sign shop Yoda.

Peter Kourounis: Thank you
for pronouncing my last name.

Right?

I appreciate that.

The other

Bryant Gillespie: cohost, Michael
Riley, the baby sign, shop Yoda,

Michael Riley: baby Yoda,

Bryant Gillespie: the baby Yoda.

What is what's your latest nickname?

Do we, do we give you another one or no,

Michael Riley: we just want to,
we never gave me another one.

Now we need to, we need
to brainstorm on that.

Bryant Gillespie: I saw that you put.

That, that article that you put up on your
blog had me as sign, shop Yoda as well.

So I feel like we need to get
like clear on who's Yoda and who's

Michael Riley: not w we need to expand
and like other Saifai universities as

well, get to get away from star wars.

I'll be spots.

I'll be this online shop Spock.

Nice.

Bryant Gillespie: Today, we're
talking pricing problems.

Boom.

As Peter says, let's
jump right into it guys.

Peter, you're the only one
that still has a sign shop.

What's your number one pricing problem.

Peter Kourounis: Mike, am I the
only one I don't have manage?

Well, all right.

All right.

Well, yeah.

That's all right.

So, okay, so I'll, I'm the
only one with the sunshine.

That's interesting.

Fucking great.

Well, anyway, here, listen number one,
number one, most common problem that

I go through right now is not really
knowing if, how much profit I'm actually.

Right.

And whether I'm too cheap or too
expensive, I mean, this is, I'm sure there

are many side shop owners out there, many
prayer and shop owners out there that,

that tend to have the same, same problem.

But when I give out a price, what is the,
what is the backbone behind that price?

What is the knowledge behind that price?

Is it.

Am I neglecting the customer's needs
by not asking additional questions.

Is it, is it a matter of just get them
a price so that they can say yes or no?

Am I really taking the necessary time?

There's a lot impact a lot to
unpack, excuse me, in that topic

there of whether or not my price
is too cheap or too expensive, but

that to me is the biggest problem.

What are you guys?

Well, let's, let's

Bryant Gillespie: dive
into the first one, right?

Is it too cheap?

I can tell you from experience in
my old shop, we were always, always,

always busy and it felt really good.

You know, you get to the end of the day
and there's 20 jobs that you've had.

But when you start to look at
the actual numbers are at the end

of the year was a good example.

Like you look at all that work
that you've produced, and then you

start looking at your profit and
loss and you're like, shit, man.

Like we were really busy, like
where where's this money at this?

You know, it felt like, okay, being
busy is really good, but as far as the

P and L like the numbers may not, they
weren't really translating to what.

Like all the work that
we actually produced.

Peter Kourounis: That's a great point.

I mean, I, I tend to think that
the profit and loss really dictates

whether or not you're too cheap or too.

I don't know if it will dictate if
you're too expensive, but it will

certainly dictate if you're too cheap.

When those percentage points come
back, whenever you're reviewing your

financial statements, you can see like,
Hey, you know, I'm really low here.

You know, what's a good
way to re increase.

These percentages is increased sales
increase pricing, re take, but most

people, most people will tend to look
at something like that and immediately

think they have to cut costs.

You know, cognitive costs will
also increase those percentages,

but may not be the right decision.

Does that make sense?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I feel like that's like,

Bryant Gillespie: at some point
it's like the like just drink

less lattes kind of argument for
like your own personal budget.

Like, ah, Hey, if I just cut out lattes
and I use this as an example, because my

wife and I drink like $12 worth of coffee
at the coffee shop every single day.

And like, you look at
it and it's like, Sure.

That's like 400 bucks a month that you
spend on coffee that like, you could

just buy like the K-cups and yeah, it'd
be fine, but yeah, like we enjoy it.

We could spend it.

Why not?

But yeah.

Expenses, Mike.

Sorry to interrupt.

Michael Riley: Oh, no,
no, you're you're fine.

So yeah, like when you say
you look at your P and L.

Because Peter, what do you mean by that?

You mean, you know, I
need to reduce overhead.

I need to like, get sharpen
my pencil with my vendors.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

So let's, let's, let's put up
a metaphorical profit and loss

statement in front of you, right.

Let's just argument.

And a really say you sold a hundred
thousand dollars in sales for that period.

If your gross profit margin is.

40% let's say, but then
you take a look at.

Your overhead and you're at
your you're at your bare minimum

on those percentages, right?

How do you increase your net profit?

You increase your net profit by either
increasing your sales or cutting expenses.

When I was saying is most people would
look at like a hundred thousand dollars

and say, that's all I was able to produce.

And if that's all I'm able to
produce, then I have to cut calls.

There's a, it's just a mentality.

It's a way that most of, most of
us tend to think a little bit.

Pessimistic than optimistic.

So when you look at your profit and
loss and you say, Hey, I can increase

my net profits by drinking less lattes.

Right.

I can, instead of saying, I can increase
my net profits by penetrating this.

Going into more costumers
raising my prices and increasing

those percentage points.

That way I tend to be more top heavy,
you know, glass, half full kind of guy,

you know, thinking if I, if I did 500
grand or a million dollars in sales,

how do I reach 1.2 million, 1.5 million.

I'm not looking to
increase my bottom line by.

Making those cuts which is often a
problem that I've seen in the past.

Even with, even with, you know, owners
that I've met with, you know, they, they

look at like, Hey, I only did 30,000
and I can't afford my rent this month.

So now I can't afford
them getting anybody.

Right.

And I

Bryant Gillespie: got to
get out there and sell more.

And that's the case and that,

Peter Kourounis: and that's like
cutting the head off of your operation.

You know, like I can't invest the
money into, into new sales coming

in because I need to pay my rent,

Bryant Gillespie: the marketing
budget, you know, that's to me,

like, I I've always like saw people
in that scenario of like, Hey, I

can't afford to run ads this month.

And it's like, Like to find
that somewhere else, man.

Yeah, like, like the other part or the
other problem with it, like looking

at it from the expense side is like,
there's, there's a, a floor there, like.

There's a limit of what you can actually
cut and obviously, like it's not going to

be a lot of fun depending on what you cut.

Yeah.

Depending on how much fat
you've got in the budget, but

let's say you're a reasonable,
reasonably smart business owner.

You probably already optimized
your budget really well.

Or at least to a certain point
that you're happy with it.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

I mean, when you're, if you're a new.

Person.

I'm sorry.

If you're a new business owner, new
person, if you're a person that's

looking to get into this business, you've
probably been educated to like doing

a forecasted projection, a proforma.

If you will, something that's really
going to give you some substance

to what you're about to enter into.

So you have to factor in.

Labor, overhead marketing budgets,
you know, and get all those pieces

together so that you know, that this
is what you have to do and what are

you going to, and this is how much you
need to invest to get to that level.

Now I realized the topic of
this question is your pricing.

How do I know if it's too cheap or
too expensive, but it really does.

It's a very big topic that
impacts a lot of things.

A lot of decisions that have signed shop
or a print shop owner needs to come.

Unwrap right.

If they're not looking at their financial
statements, well, there's problem.

Number one, numero UNO
at the top of the hell.

And that's your biggest concern.

Let's use those financial
statements to make decisions on

the day to day of our business.

Right?

And, and that, that to me
is something that I preach.

I coach I consult with that is the
number one thing that a business

owner needs to be focused on in
my mind is their profit and loss.

Being able to dictate.

Day-to-day decisions that they go, that go
on in the shop, like raising your prices.

Bryant Gillespie: What's the.

Mr.

Coach expert consultant, like
what is the, what's the number

one thing on the profit and loss.

Like you pick up my profit
and loss for my shop today.

My theoretical shop, as we've established,
like, what's the first thing you're

going to look at or what's what do
you put your finger on and say like,

Hey, this is your pricing's off.

Or like, Hey, you need to,
like, the sales are too low.

Like, what are you, what do
you put your finger on first?

Peter Kourounis: Yeah,
that's a great question.

Everything's stems from sales, right?

So what did you, what were you able to
do with all first look at your sales

for that, for that period of time?

If it's no matter what the number
is, the correlated major categories

of your profit and loss need to have
the proper percentages in order to.

Justify those cells.

So in other words, if you did a
hundred thousand dollars, I'm looking

for something, your costs of goods
to be anywhere from 22 to 30%.

Of that number.

If it's higher, we that's,
that's going to be a red flag.

You know, you're spending
too much on material for the

prices that you're selling.

You know, you're not charging enough
for the raw goods that you're buying,

you know, so if you're, if I'm seeing a
number that's 40 or $50,000 in cost of

goods, and I'm seeing percentages that
are 40 or 50%, that's going to stand out

right away before we even go to the next.

Portion of your profit and loss.

You know, we'll look at labor is
labor making up 25 to 30% or in these

days it probably could be higher than
30%, but is it making up the proper

percentage of what you're producing?

If not, well, now you have a you have
a labor issue, you know, you have.

Maybe you're paying
your employees too much.

Maybe your, not, maybe you need to cut
back on hours, but again, just like I

said earlier, I've mentioned the word,
just cut this out, just there, you know,

it all goes back to the number one thing.

What did you do in sales?

What did you do?

And I tend to live on that,
that top part of the equation.

You know, what is.

The answer to really fix
your problem is more sales.

How do you get

Bryant Gillespie: that?

Yeah, I can't imagine going to an
employee and just like, Hey Mike,

we're going to cut your salary
because we didn't do enough in sales.

How's that going to

Peter Kourounis: go over?

Usually that usually what happens
is that that, that conversation

really doesn't happen in the world.

But what does happen is the owners.

Mike's not performing the way I need,
so I need to kind of dip into my pocket

to invest into that business again.

So now it's costing me more
money until I get busy again.

And then I put that in quotes because
that's what a lot of people do.

Like get busy means we're making sales.

It doesn't always mean that
you're profiting on your sales

when you're busy, by the way.

Like, I like people that say
that they're busy, but good.

Busy is better than bad.

Busy.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

That brings to mind a story.

Like one of the first consulting
clients that I ever took on years ago.

Really nice guy had a small sign and
print shop, kind of a, a remote area.

It wasn't in a large market, one of the
quotes, and we did like a discovery,

you know, talk to a bunch of his people.

They were doing probably, I want
to say it was like 450 $500,000

a year in sales, which is.

It's a common starting point for a
lot of people that may be listening

to this, or just in the industry as
a whole, for a really small shop.

He had like three or four
people working for him.

I still remember like this quote that
I pulled out from our conversation and

put into this report, I wrote for him,
he said it plain as day on the call.

He said, I feel like.

All I own is a job.

Like I'm working for my employees.

Like they make more money than I
do per hour, just because we're

so busy and I'm spending 60
hours a week working in the shop.

And if you, you know, and he did the math.

Like it, his salary plus the profits
that he was taking home as, as the owner

on a per hour basis, we're like $5 less
than what he was paying his highest paid

employee per hour, which I'm not sure
how you'd feel about something like that.

But as a business owner, like if
you're not making a profit, like

why are, why are you even doing it?

Yeah.

If I can't create the lifestyle
that I want for my family out of

it, you know, why, why, why punish
yourself for 60 hours a week?

Peter Kourounis: I would not know what
to say to that sign, stop owner of yours,

but what I probably tip toe around the,
the obvious statement is that he bought

himself a job instead of a career.

Right.

And.

You know, I, I, I, I think that
this industry, whether you're

in a printing industry, whether
you're in the sign is your street.

It's got a lot to offer.

I mean, we've all been there.

We've all operated in shops.

You know, what it offers us
is a sense of being human.

We, we literally are individuals
that are designed to help other

businesses in our community.

That's what we, that's what we get into
this business for, you know, it's it

offers nine to five business hours.

Monday through Friday, you
get weekends and holidays off.

It's a really great industry.

I mean, I can, I love it.

I I've made my entire career in
this industry because of these

because of what it's allowed
me to do as a, as an industry.

Spent it allowed me to have the time
to meet my wife and to develop my

family and be moved closer to my
family and have those relationships

with friends and family that are
crucial to our everyday normal life.

Right.

But if you're that type of owner,
that's putting in 40, 50, 60 hours a

week and you're 30, 40 hour employees
making more than you because.

Your you can't afford to hire more
help or what not, it's, it's a matter

of stepping away from your business.

That would be my first key
advice is you have to step away.

You have to step away to get
fresh eyes on what you need to do.

Whether that's a week, two weeks, I don't
know if you could shut down for a month,

but what you're doing is not working,
what that person is doing is not working.

Mike.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

Yeah, no, I, I agree.

I mean, I think everybody is, at some
point in their trajectory in this

industry will fall into that trap.

I know I did.

When I first started out and had
my shop, you know, you, you, you're

afraid to lose jobs, so you price them.

So that you get the work, right?

I mean, I think, I think especially new
people in this industry, they priced to

get the work is they're afraid of that
customer turning around and walking out

and spending that money somewhere else.

There's a psychological barrier.

There, there's some

Bryant Gillespie: little
thing in your head.

That's like this person is in front of me
and they're wanting this particular job.

And you just like.

Eh, okay.

500 bucks.

Yeah, that sounds good.

Yeah, let's go with that.

We're like, this is

Michael Riley: my portfolio, right?

This a little great on my website when
I'm going to lose my ass on this job,

just for the bragging rights to say
I did the job, like I've done that.

Everybody does that in this industry.

It's a, it's a dangerous trap to fall
into, you know, cause once you start

doing that, it's really hard to break
that habit and get back out of it.

And I I've seen people that have
been in this industry for 2030 years.

They can't figure out why
they're not profitable.

It's because they're still
doing that because they're

afraid of losing the customer.

They're afraid of losing the job.

So they price it low, or they're
looking at what their competitor,

you know, Jimbo's lawn care
and yard signs down the street.

We'll do the sign for half.

What I can do it for, you know, every,
every town has one and he's working

out of his spare bedroom with a
cricket and he gets crappy work, but

he'll undercut everybody in town cause
he doesn't have an actual business.

Right.

So many people fall into the trap of
trying to compete with those guys.

And that's just, you know,
that's super dangerous.

I, I see a lot of people making the
mistake of comparing their pricing

to their competitors, trying to base
that on what, what they charge anyway,

which is dumb because your competitors
don't have the same overhead as you.

They don't have the same brands
and employees and payroll

and burn rate that you do.

So why are you trying
to price according to.

Their business model, which is
entirely different than yours.

And then that's how you fall in the trap,
or it's a one big way of falling into

that trap of having a very expensive
job that you have to go through every

day that pays you less than you make it.

Talk about it.

I don't usually.

Breaking that cycle.

Bryant Gillespie: That wouldn't be bad.

I do.

I mean,

Michael Riley: I'm not saying that
there are times I'd rather work at taco

Bryant Gillespie: bell.

What's your go-to at the taco bell.

What are you, what do you
mean at the taco bell?

Michael Riley: Oh, man.

I mean, it depends on what,
what what's in season.

Like if you've never had their
nacho fries, let me tell you.

They don't have them all the
time, but if they've got the nacho

fries, you gotta get on that.

They're they're amazing.

Otherwise just give me a
plain old bean burrito, buddy.

That's my go-to.

Peter Kourounis: I used to
be a fan of their Mexi melts

before they got rid of them.

Like I was like, why did you get
rid of your myth and your mix?

If you're new,

Michael Riley: you remember.

That's oh God, those were so good.

They gave me a little plastic
container with the bubble

and like the red sauce on it.

I mean, those were mind-blowingly good.

And they got rid of

Peter Kourounis: when, when, when you're,
when it's late night and you're working

in the shop, there was nothing better.

I, when it comes.

I'm just going to straight.

I'm a straight, like three tacos, maybe,
maybe a chicken and cheese case idea.

My wife likes the cheesy gordita
crunch, but when you're like every,

when you have your staff and they're
all like, kind of working to beat that

deadline, there's nothing like a, oh,
you're like one of those big boxes

of tacos to get everybody motive.

Michael Riley: So it was,
yeah, it's the best man.

And I don't eat meat.

I'm the taco bell.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, we can get
them to sponsor the next episode.

Like what did they find some
tacos for taco bell break.

Peter Kourounis: That's a great title
signs and tacos and profit and loss.

Michael Riley: We should all be
eating tacos while we talk here.

So we have a set.

Oh, go ahead.

Oh, I was just going to say like that.

I think that's, I've seen
that trap that so many people

volunteer I've been guilty of it.

I'm I'm sure everybody on this call, I've
been guilty of it before in the past.

And I think that's one of the
psychological barrier of being

afraid, price something the
way it needs to be priced.

So that it's profitable for you is really
a hard thing for people to overcome.

It's a terrifying thing to overcome.

It's scary to hand a quote to a
customer that you know is high, right?

Like if you, if you've got a customer
getting three or four bids and you know,

your price is going to be on the high
side of that, therefore you're running

the risk of losing that job, like partying
in that customer, that bid with any

confidence that, you know, but at the
same time, I'm like you have to have

competence in your price that you're.

You're not pricing to get the job.

You're not pricing.

You can put a three, you're paying
to put food on your own table and

make sure that your employees get a
paycheck next week, first and foremost.

And that's, I think what a lot
of people fail to take into

consideration the equation.

And then, you know, talking about your P
and L on what red flags jump out at you.

I mean, there's an old
metric to that, you know?

I can't remember the exact number.

You should be only, you know,
getting, you know, roughly

half the coach put out there.

If you're getting, if you're getting
too many quotes, if your prices

are too low, if you're getting, you
know, if you're wanting to do too

few bids and prices are too high.

So that was one that I
always used to use as well.

It was like if I'm winning every
bid, I'm putting out there.

Every quote that I send out
comes back as a paying job.

Like I shit, that's a big problem.

You don't want that.

Cause every one of those jobs is under
priced and then your, your margins are

thin and you're working for you stole

Bryant Gillespie: the thunder dude.

I was getting ready to come in and
say like Peter, what's the number

one thing that they, the people
listening, their pricing too low.

Tell them how right now look
at the conversion ratio.

How many quotes do you send?

You send 10 quotes.

You get nine of those quotes.

You're way too freaking low.

Peter Kourounis: That's interesting.

That's an interesting, yeah.

I'd like to, I never quite
thought of it that way.

To be honest with you, I've
been doing this awhile.

That is something I've
never quite thought of.

I would just think that if I'm
winning all these coats, they

like who I am as an individual.

They like me as an owner.

They like me.

So everything closed because
they want to work me.

But I guess also be thinking,
Hey, my price might be

Michael Riley: too low.

That sounds really funny to
say it out loud, but it's true.

I I've so many shop owners that are, we
get every bid that comes through the door.

Like, it's great.

We're not profitable, but it's great.

I'm like, why are you getting those bids?

Like, they, they, they
fucking love us, man.

I'm like, I don't, they don't,
they don't give a shit about you.

They're saving money with you.

That's all they care about that.

Yeah.

I, I, it, that plays into the ego too.

And he'd go, I mean, this is, this,
isn't a sign industry-specific thing,

but ego is a big thing that drives a
lot of business owners in it's easy

to conflate is people love me for.

I'm just whoring myself
out and they love that.

And there's a big difference between
the two and it can be really difficult

for a business owner to recognize
which is which, which one of those,

you know, that they're actually in.

No

Peter Kourounis: that's really
interesting unit the religion, cause I

would never know how to figure that out.

Right.

I would say to be in that court,
in that rock between a rock and a

hard place, if it's me or if it's my
pricing that they like me or there's

my pricing too cheap, like that.

That's gotta be a big question
for, for many sign shop owners

out there that are wrong

Michael Riley: with
how to find the answer.

It totally.

And there's nothing wrong with liking
your customer, your customers like you.

Like I had a lot of customers still do.

I sold my business nine years ago.

I'm still Facebook friends with two,
three dozen my customers and still

talk to them on a regular basis.

You know, I consider them.

I consider them friends.

I'll call them places or peers.

You know, that relationship.

I mean, it's a very fine line.

That relationship you walk in business
with, with, with with the client or these

really truly my friend, are we doing,
why am I, these people really like me?

And you know, the flip side of
that, do I really like them?

Or do I like their money?

You know?

So it's, it's, it's a dangerous,
slippery slope to let that muddy.

The pricing equation.

And a lot of people do a lot of
people let that factor into how much

you're charging and that's really
dangerous because then you're,

you're, you know, frankly interjecting
personal feelings into something

that's very black and white mass.

That'll screw you in
the long run for sure.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

You know, while you guys talk, you
know, something must came to mind and

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

And, and I might throw a monkey wrench
into what we were talking about here.

Just a moment, but you know, one of the
bigger hurdles for me, even throughout my

entire career is timing with a customer
when a customer, if a customer comes in

and you guys mentioned like, you know,
Looking at your competitors' pricing

and, and, you know, trying to stay
better than what they're offering you.

I don't have time to call my customers
or call my competitors and say, what are

you charging for this so that I can be.

In the ballpark.

I don't have time for that.

I don't think I've ever done that.

You know, I do it in a different way,
but if a customer comes in and they're

ready to buy, you know, you know,
those moments where you get somebody

to walks in or calls you or, and is
really like, I need to move forward.

I need to do this to tell
you all the right things.

I need to get a price.

Can you get me a quote today?

I need to have this by the weekend.

You know, you got them by the, by
the, on the ropes right there at that

point, you know, th that the rattle
timing, I got them on the ropes.

got them on the ropes.

They're ready to buy.

You know, they start asking buying
questions and that's usually a telling

sign of like, okay, this guy needs
to get an estimate out right now.

And I need to find the urgency to get them
a price and because they're ready to buy.

And I, and I think that that
plays a part into the logic of

too cheap or too expensive timing.

It, you know, it's a very
interesting piece because I don't

have the time to do my research.

I don't have the time to evaluate
competitors call vendors because

persons urgent immediate right
now that they need to move.

A lot of times, my self even
would rely on prior experiences

to give this customer a price.

Even though the is not being
followed, I'm not calling any vendors.

I'm re I'm going back to old habits
myself, because this customer is telling

me that they want to move forward.

They need, they need that
sign up by the weekend.

They need it in a week.

I need to get a price from you.

So that, that typically totally do

Bryant Gillespie: that in the past.

Like, especially if like somebody came
in the shop, they're standing right in

front of me and they say right in front
of you, like, Hey, this is what we want.

Like the pressure there
to close that sale then.

And there is huge.

Yeah.

Peter Kourounis: Are you really, really
willing to let that guy walk out the door?

Are you really willing to let them walk
out the door so that you can do your

research and get them a more accurate?

That's a, that's a ballsy moment
and I never let that pur I tried my

hardest to never let that person leave.

I mean, that's like sales 1 0 1.

They, they want to buy this at the time.

Bryant Gillespie: Let's pause for a
moment because it, like, I used to

do that same, like shortcut of like,
ah, like, okay, like, Hey, this guy

wants some lettering on his truck.

Like it's going to be, you know, let's
say like six feet by about two feet.

By the time we get done with his
logo, like we just did one, three

weeks ago for X, like, okay.

It's X here's the price.

Yeah.

And it's like, I think it's just
like, in that moment, you don't

want that sale to go to waste.

So to say, or like, you, you want
to close that right then and there,

but you, I dunno, you got to give
yourself some kind of space there

to like get out of, I don't.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Peter Kourounis: You
might get an emotional

Bryant Gillespie: reaction for
me sometimes, you know, it's,

it's almost like the customer.

Have you ever had a customer
do this to you, Peter?

Like you're saving there in that
same situation and they give

you, you give them the price.

And they're like I was thinking
probably like, $200 less or $300.

Let's say it's like a thousand dollar job.

And then they're like, well, like
so-and-so quoted me 700 bucks.

They're like, yeah.

Like what does that, does that
like hit you right in the gut too?

Or are you like you

Peter Kourounis: passed that?

No, no, no.

That doesn't actually know that
the truth is, is that, that that

is a, that is, that happens a lot.

And what it typically means
is that we're off base.

1500 bucks and they get, they tell me
they got a quote from $700 and it's,

and they like what I'm presenting.

Typically this person is either
not telling me the truth,

that there is nobody else.

That's giving them this price for
$700, or I'm just simply not hitting

the mark where they see that.

And that's where I would
shift the conversation.

This could probably, I could probably
do a whole video segment or two

on value propositions then whoa,
how to produce that kind of value.

What questions to ask, to allow
yourself to put in, to be putting

into place, to, to assert value.

But yeah, when I get somebody that comes
into me and says your brewery $400 over

price, it's I say over based off of.

Nobody else designed the
same time as, as I just did.

You know?

And, and, and if they all are a few
hundred dollars over me or under

me, you know, I typically will.

I, I switched, I have, and I say,
it's called change the variables and

changing the variables means how do
I, if they, if they just told you

what, what budget they want to be in.

So how do you make it fit in that budget?

I'm just not going to say yeah.

Because they said, oh, I
got a quote for $500 less.

I'm going to say, okay, well
maybe we can, I can get you there.

If we change the variables
of whatever the sign is.

Maybe if it's not, I don't know.

Maybe it's a different thickness.

Maybe it's a different size.

Maybe it's instead of painting the
posts, we're just leaving them white,

you know, whatever, whatever the case is.

But.

Dictate a compensation of getting
a value for what they're buying.

Yeah.

And that's what

Michael Riley: totally,
totally agree with that too.

You, I mean, it's, that's a big, it's
a rule of thumb that I always use

at my shop as well as if somebody
comes in and they say, Hey, I got a

price for X down the street and it's.

$500 cheaper, you know?

Well, chances are, you're
probably not comparing apples

to apples in that case as well.

I mean, if you're, you know, if you're
talking about a thousand dollars sign

and somebody is $200 cheaper than
that's a 20% price difference, that's,

that's a, that's a lot, I mean, $200.

Isn't a lot of money, but a 20%
difference is a lot of money, which

means that there's something that's
not the same between those two quotes.

And I've seen so many
people just say, oh, okay.

Yeah, cool.

Well, whatever they're doing
it for a hundred bucks.

It's 200 bucks.

You got whatever I want
your business as well.

Then, you know, that 20% it just took off.

Was there a higher profit margin of
Bob without changing variables of it?

Like you said, so educating your
customer and dissecting that

other quote and saying, okay,
this is what they're quoting.

Three mil Diaba versus
six IJ, 35 versus IJ 180.

You know, they're giving
you a three-year sign.

I'm quoting you in seven years time.

Hence the price difference.

Now, if you want me to match that
price, I can quote it exactly the way

they quoted it and I can get you there.

But I think that's a part of the
equation in that a lot of people,

miss is what are you, what are you
quoting against this other customer?

You know, if you're just looking at
numbers only, I mean, you might as

well just give them the sign for free.

You're not even charging for it at
that point because you're, you're

gonna make the sign for free.

Anyway, if you're not actually
dissecting what you're quoting, why

Peter Kourounis: you're quoting
it that way, and you want to know.

Why are they talking to you if
they've already gotten the price?

Michael Riley: Exactly.

Right.

I think that's, I think that's the most,
that's the biggest underlying issue

is if that price is so good and that
company is going to give them everything

they want and they love that price.

Why did they not buy it there?

Why are they coming to you?

And you guess what?

They're also going to go to everybody
else in town for the exact same

conversation, until they can find somebody
who was dumb enough to say, yeah, I'll

match that price without giving them
a second thought that customer knows

what they're doing and walk right into

Bryant Gillespie: the gut punch.

Peter Kourounis: Right.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

I'll take it.

I'll take it right in the chin.

He gave it to me.

Give it to me straight now.

I liked it.

I'll put that right back on the customer.

That's a great price.

Why didn't you go with that?

And then be quiet.

Don't

Michael Riley: say that.

I can't answer that either.

Yeah.

They'll, there'll be they'll
they'll him on notable stutter

for an answer on that one.

Cause they can't tell you.

They just know, well, I'm just going
to keep working until I can get a

better, you know, and then it's.

Peter Kourounis: That's what customs
do you want to, but you want, but you

want to know something that customer
did walk in and there, and that's,

that's more back to my point is that
they're willing to buy right now.

So are you, are you going to just bend
over backwards to accommodate their

request that this is their budget?

That's just what they want
and cut into your profits.

I I've told you I've,
I've done that before.

I think we're all, like you said,
we're all guilty of it, but it's that

timing piece because you are, you re
like with Brian said, are you really.

Willing to turn down money cashflow
that's cashflow of money in the bank

today to do a project, you might even
already have the material to do to

keep your, to make payroll, to keep
your employees working, to keep the

engine running, to turn that down.

And most people aren't, you know, I
would say if I pulled all of my sign shop

owners, I've spoken to they'd all stay.

I'll do whatever I gotta do to make that.

And that's not always the
right, the right choice.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: You want to make that
easier for us was appointment only.

We a.

We used to have a small
shop on main street.

We had a large format printer,
puke, its guts out it.

This was before the CT.

Now mine, we didn't.

So we were convinced we
were going to buy the CT.

We didn't have room for it.

We built a 6,000 square foot box,
just a steel framed metal building.

Boxed just production facility
just had all the toys over there.

And then like, we were
then like appointment only.

Like if you wanted to come in and
talk with me about pricing on a

rap, like, do we set up a call?

Like it was all scheduled out.

So that like any of those,
like walk-in jobs, like, Hey.

Joe, and I just bought this 20 foot boat
and I need some bladders for my boat, so

I could get it on the water this weekend.

You know, like that stuff, like I no
longer had to make those decisions

because like, they just, they didn't,
they didn't come over to the shot.

The door was always locked.

Like any customers that were coming
over, I knew who it was and was,

was prepared for that situation.

So I didn't really put
myself in that situation.

Michael Riley: Yeah, that's
a, that's a good point.

We did that.

We kind of did that too at our shop
and we, we didn't lock the doors and

tell people to go away if they didn't
have an appointment, but we, we had

a nice show room, but we didn't have
office hours and we didn't advertise it.

And we, you know, if somebody walked in
and looking for boat numbers and shit like

that, we would refer them to fast science.

Cause we don't, you know,
that's, that's what fast.

Sorry,

Peter Kourounis: Peter, excuse me.

Sorry.

Michael Riley: First of
all, local fashion was four.

Maybe, maybe

Peter Kourounis: it gets
a bad rap man, bad rap.

Now everybody thinks that we do.

Michael Riley: And we had a fast line
in our market that, that that's all

they could do was the small stuff.

And that was like, basically if we get
every shop in the area, it was like, no,

you need to go to fast signs for that.

Like, we, we get a fast signs
and business, honestly, but no,

I mean, that's a good point.

I mean, if you're, if you're operating
in a way where anybody and everybody can

walk in up the street in demand and your
time and expect your time right now,

you've almost set yourself up to, you
know, in a way where you have to do that.

You can't not take those orders
on, you can not take those jobs on.

And, and generally speaking in the
sign industry, walk in customers aren't

necessarily the most profitable ever.

You know, if you're looking, I mean, I
guess it depends on what kind of market

you're in, but if you're trying to sell
real signage, nobody will walks in off

the street to buy a $30,000 monument sign.

That isn't how it works.

Right.

You know, it's rarely anyway,
people walking up the street.

$50 set about numbers.

And, and, and that creates a
whole other level of pressure that

you just, you got to figure out
how to overcome from a pricing

standpoint, Peter shaking his head.

Yeah.

Peter Kourounis: I was just
thinking, I was just thinking about

that best signs in your market.

I'd love to be them.

If you're handing me all
this business, I'd love it.

All the.

Michael Riley: But letters,
but lettering and race card.

Right.

That makes me

Peter Kourounis: that's
what you want to do

Bryant Gillespie: just to me, like, yeah.

Like I was like, do it all got yeah.

Like, and when like the sign
production and like the, the

office that everybody came in.

And you know, we were kind of unique.

We did like ups shipping.

And, and stuff like that as
well for the community which

is I wouldn't advocate for it.

I wouldn't recommend like doing any
of like that office, like ups store

type situation, but it's something
that we did and yeah, it's just like

being right around the corner, running.

Yeah, I large format printer.

You got $3,000 worth of signage, just,
you know, wrap coming off of that printer.

And then you step around the corner to
take your eyes off of it, or whatever else

is in your queue to sell $50 boat letters.

So you could have just referred
to the fast signs down the street.

Just wasn't a good use of time, but Peter
is willing to take the $50 boat letters.

That you and I don't want hypothetically,
since we don't have all day,

Peter Kourounis: all day.

All day, every day and twice on Tuesdays.

Michael Riley: Now, are you, let me
ask you a question, Peter, have you

ever audited those jobs and looked
at how much time you spend with the

customer designing and proofing and
invoicing and waiting for payment?

Are you actually making money on those?

I mean, I know it's a legitimate question.

I'm not, I'm not, I don't
mean to sound accusatory.

Like, dude, you're losing your ass on it.

I'm curious.

Are you actually making money on it is a
profitable or is it like a loss leader?

Peter Kourounis: Well, first of all,
there is there's the, let me, let me,

let me be specific with something from
boat lettering or boat numbers, whatever

you want to call it is it's definitely
something that most shops will do.

Simply because they have the means to
do it, but I do have a minimum order

amount, so I won't do it for $50.

I don't really do it.

I don't really do nothing.

I don't really do anything in my shop for
$50 because of what you just said there,

like the times you speak to the customer,
it could take 25 minutes to speak to

them or even put vinyl into the plotter.

So I'm certainly not, I'm mindful of
the, of the, of the time allotment there.

Our shop has a $200 minimum.

So if it, if it's a boat members and
maybe they got that, this is something

that maybe we could do another.

Call on another, another podcast on, but
it's more of if they meet the minimums.

Great.

I'll sell that for $200 and I'll
interrupt my entire day for that $200.

Cause I know it's good money that's
coming in and it's profitable money

that's coming in at that price.

Right.

If it's three inch, four inch
letters and it takes 25 minutes to

weed mass cut hand, while they're
waiting, I would absolutely do that.

And I would stop whatever I was.

I was working on for the $200 sale.

Now not many shops would say what I
just said, but it also, because it also

depends on the type of shop that you have.

If you're a fabricating.

And you're doing a lot of like outdoor
trade show, like signs, channel

letters, things of that nature.

Probably not going to stop
your operations to do that.

Maybe you'll get to it when, when you
can, but if you're a vinyl shop and

I, and I, I do decipher vinyl shops
from production shops very often.

You know, the guys like specimens,
like what you're saying, right?

Like.

That's what my shop is.

It's a 1500 square foot
facility printer cutter plotter.

I mean, why wouldn't we be able to do that
job and get banging it out really quickly?

It's like that quick banner,
that quick vehicle magnets, that

all it's in that same category.

If I can get the number that I'm
looking for and it heat and it meets

the minimum and I can bang it out
quickly, I'll absolutely do it.

Michael Riley: You get a lot
of pushback on your minimum,

Peter Kourounis: you know, not
nearly as much as I thought.

And then that's something I
did this year, by the way.

I, it used to be $50 minimum.

Now it's two, a $200 minimum.

That's just kind of something
we did to, I like that.

It's two.

Bryant Gillespie: And most of
the shops that I talk to are like

a hundred bucks, 150, but like
200 feels substantial enough.

And like, at that level, like I probably,
you know, I don't, I don't know how many

of those, I don't know that I would have
like, stopped and like knocked over.

At that point, but like $200,
like that was probably profitable

for us back in the day.

I it's just like, like one of the things
I, I talked with I can't tell you how

many shops I talked to you at, at shop
box, like being in that environment.

Like you, you get to actually look
at some of their numbers or like if

you're helping somebody put pricing
into the system, like you get an

actual look at the pricing and as.

I seen a lot of people that like, get
that, that type of job mixed up with in

the, in the same queue or are blocking
like a $3,000 job or like a $5,000 job.

You know what I mean?

If you've got 20 of those small jobs that
are getting in the way of a larger job,

you know, that could be a big problem,
or maybe it's not depends on how fast

you could get it out the door, but.

Michael Riley: It definitely depends on
the type of shop it is to like, like Peter

said, I mean, if you're more like a retail
vinyl shop, like a fast signs, you're

going to have a specific production.

Flow set up.

If you're going to be geared more for
that, where like, like you said, you're

more like a fabrication, electrical shop
where your vinyl cutter is used to cut,

you know, translucent vinyl for backlit
faces, not necessarily for knocking

out boat numbers and stuff like that.

Like yeah.

Even a $200 boat number job is even less
about the profitability of that job.

It's a massive inconvenience
and it's a huge interruption to

workflow when you've got to stop.

Your bread and butter
to do something else.

I mean, that, that becomes
a major issue as well.

But I'm glad you've got a
substantial minimum order.

I mean, yeah.

Like, you know, my time at
shot box too, like I would see

the same thing all the time.

People will, one of the, one of the
features in shot boxes, you can set

up like a minimum price on an item or
something like that, or, you know, line

charger, but I'm going to charge and.

I can talk to me.

How many times, how many shops
I talked to you were like your

minimum order was 25 bucks.

You know, the thought process behind that.

Okay.

I'm going to set a boat numbers.

We'll keep beating on boat numbers here.

Yeah.

Like a buck 50 and material in a, in a
set of boat numbers, you know, between

the vinyl transportation, you know,
in 20 minutes to cut it and we didn't

tape it and send it out the door.

Right.

So that's what, that's
what people are seeing.

But you know, it goes
back to that upfront time.

I mean, it still takes time to.

Stand there and talk it out with the
customer, figure out what they want, zine

it, create your file, get it through them.

Bill it, receive the payment.

And that's where it's so many
people don't take into consideration

is just that ancillary time.

It takes to just write up an order
and get it to the production floor.

It's not about the dollar 50
and material you have in it.

And the 15 minutes you got a.

You know, you're pulling on our
employee or we didn't tape it.

It's, it's, it's all the
other time that it takes up.

And it's all the other stuff that it
puts on the back burner while you're

producing that set of boat numbers that
you're not making that $3,000 job to.

Yeah.

And that's where people
feel that I don't know

Bryant Gillespie: the reason
people price too cheap.

Peter, why did they price it too cheap?

Peter Kourounis: The fear of
losing a sale underestimate.

Now fear I was right here wrong.

That's the way it goes.

Bryant Gillespie: Okay.

Maybe number two.

So there's probably a list of these,
but underestimating your time like

Mike is talking about is one of
the biggest things that I've seen.

And I've talked to a lot of shop owners.

Michael Riley: I would say the same thing.

Like, yeah, like the fear is big
loo the fear of losing a sale.

I'd say it's probably a close second, but.

If there's any like one common thread that
I could, I could draw between the vast

majority of shop owners that I've worked
with over the years, it's the same thing.

It's that they don't a, they
undervalue their own style and they

don't, they don't really stop and
think about how much time they have

into a job outside of the actual.

Producing the tangible object.

They don't think about all that other
time outside of that, in that I think

that's where so many people fall short
on pricing is they don't recognize that.

And then the shops that I've ever seen
that are truly profitable, then, you

know, we can talk about the 10, 15,
$20 million a year shops, the big guys.

Those guys understand
what their time is worth.

And they're not afraid to ask
for that, that amount of money.

And if you're not willing for a time, the
left the out the door or won't think twice

about, and that's what separates those big
shops from the little shops right there.

I mean a mountain above
and beyond anything else.

The $20 million shops know
what their time is worth.

And the $200,000 shops have no
clue what their time is worth.

Well,

Bryant Gillespie: when you go back to
the fear thing, Like you, you kinda know

you're working with the fear, right.

But let's say you're, you're not
factoring in like the admin time or

the setup time to just throw a cut lope
in a file and throw a cut line on it.

Like, if you're not factoring
that in when you're pricing, like

you're working with flawed logic.

So like, you know, the fear, like I can,
I can like acknowledge the fear, but like,

if, if I don't know what, I don't know,
like I, if I've just not factoring that

time in, I'm just like shooting myself.

In the foot before I even get started.

Yeah.

Michael Riley: Well, fear is
a powerful motivator, right?

In fear is, you know, something
that motivates all of us all

day every day, whether we're
consciously aware of it or not.

I mean, everything we do is motivated
by fear in some way, but you're right.

Like how do you channel that fear?

And are you using that fear correctly?

And I would say that if somebody
is the fear of losing a job is

pushing somebody to just quote
the job cheaper, to win the job.

You're misdirecting that fear.

Or you're aiming that fear of the wrong
thing, that fear should inspire you to

dot your I's and cross your T's and make
sure that you're charging appropriately.

Not I'm just going to drop
my pants, get the job because

I'm afraid I'm gonna lose it.

Because if you do that, you're going
to lose money or the way you might as

well lose the money and not have to
pay an employee for it, lean into the

fear, but don't run from it, I guess.

Bryant Gillespie: Lean into the fear,

so, wrapping this thing up, guys
really enjoyed this first episode.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

Meet someone better.

This definitely went better
than I thought it would.

Bryant Gillespie: I think
there's all three of us, right.

Peter Kourounis: All right, the next one.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, pricing too cheap.

If you're doing that now
look at your quotes, right?

If you're winning 85, 90% of your
quotes, you're probably too cheap.

If you haven't updated your pricing
because of COVID and supply issues, if you

haven't updated your pricing in the last
year or two, you're probably too cheap.

What else?

Peter?

What am I.

Peter Kourounis: Audit your
time, your financial, oh yeah.

At the top of the list, audit your
time, audit your time, pay attention

to your financial statements.

They tell a story.

But very interesting story.

Bryant Gillespie: Perfect.

All right guys, that's a wrap.

Peter Kourounis: Alright, awesome.

Michael Riley: Peace out,

Peter Kourounis: please.