Better Sign Shop Podcast

Tom McIltrot: Learn how to build a
better sign and print shop from a

few crusty sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

Conversations and advice on pricing,
sales, marketing, workflow, growth,

Michael Riley: and

Tom McIltrot: more.

Your listening to The Better Sign
Shop podcast with your hosts,

Michael Riley: Peter

Tom McIltrot: COIs, Michael O'Reilly,

Michael Riley: and Bryant Gillespie.

Bryant Gillespie: Before we jump into
the episode, I'd like to give a shout

out to our sponsor, GCI I Digital Imaging
Grand Format Printer to the trade.

We talk a lot about outsourcing on
the podcast and the importance of.

Good partners and GCI Digital Imaging
is a good partner to have owner TJ

Bak and his team focused on providing
killer customer service just the

way grandmother used to make it.

If you're interested in learning
their approach to business, hop

back into the archives to episode
nine where the guys and I interview

TJ about customer experience.

So if you're looking for a high quality
trade printer for banners, wraps,

and other printed graphics that your
customers throw at you, check out

GCI Digital [email protected].

Alright guys, welcome to the next
edition of the Better Sign Shop podcast.

As always, I've got my friends
and colleagues with me, Peter

Caris, the sign Shop, Yoda.

How are you Pete?

How's up everybody?

Happy to be back.

Yeah, glad to have you back.

We missed you last episode.

And.

We have the Sign Design Samurai.

Michael Riley.

Mike, how are

Michael Riley: you?

Is that what you've settled on?

For me, the Samurai,

Bryant Gillespie: I, nobody has given
me any new ones, uh, as of late.

So the second somebody gives me a new one,
, you're gonna get hit with another one.

I don't, I don't know what it's
gonna be from, you know, I, I've

run out of nicknames myself.

I, I'm just exhausted.

Like, I, I don't have any more brain
powered left to give you a new nickname.

So somebody else, if you're listening
to this, keep the nicknames coming.

We want to keep Mike on his toes.

Michael Riley: I'm having
an identity crisis.

I'm , I'm starting to freak out
a little bit here every week.

It's a new , it's a new nickname for Mike.

I'm good.

How are you?

Bryant Gillespie: I'm good.

Good.

What's?

It's good.

What's new with you guys?

Pete, dude, what have you been doing?

Oh, I've been

Peter Kourounis: really busy.

I've been real busy.

I've been keeping myself
busy in the franchise world.

Also meeting some new sign shop owners in
the world, uh, discussing franchising with

them, discussing how to make them, you
know, strive for operational excellence.

So we've been, I've been traveling,
meeting new sign shop owners, helping

them get their stride, hit their stride,
and love the fact of, uh, trying to

help as many people as I possibly can.

Bryant Gillespie: It sounds like you're
really enjoying retirement . Well,

Michael Riley: yeah.

Peter Kourounis: You know, uh, throwing
in the, uh, the sign shop owner badge

for sign shop consultant is, uh, has
been a very busy transaction, a very,

a busy transition, I should say.

And it is very heartwarming
and, and welcoming and humbling.

I love that I get to meet
people in different parts.

I love that I get to go to
different parts of the country.

I've never been to
Missouri, never been to.

Chicago, Georgia.

So just meeting new sign shop owners,
helping them in their operation.

It's been, it's been really fun

Bryant Gillespie: so far.

Missouri, huh?

Mm.

Michael Riley: Exotic

.
Bryant Gillespie: Very exotic.

. Mike, what have you been up to,

Michael Riley: man?

Uh, same old, for me, trying to lay
low and just stay busy opposite of

Peter . Do very d different life tracks.

I think.

Enjoying retirement as well.

Enjoying

Bryant Gillespie: retirement.

Jack, are you still staying up till
2:00 AM in the mornings designing

stuff, or you got that cutout now?

Michael Riley: Uh, I, I don't know, man.

I'm on a weird schedule.

Like I, I, I tend to just kind of
during the day, poke around the house

and work on house projects and respond
to email anymore it seems like.

My brain wants to design at night, so I,
I sort of like start working on design

work after, after dinner, and then
I kind of go till I get tired, which

is a weird cycle I'm trying to break,
but it's really just kind of like my

personality and not being so busy that
I have to work until 2:00 AM anymore.

Kind of got that under control.

Hey, speaking

Peter Kourounis: of your designs,
you know, we had a, a post where

you put out a couple of examples
of some of your most recent work.

Mockups.

Eh, it's gotten a lot of praise and
especially in conversations I've had a

lot of people have shown more impressed
by what you have put out there.

So, uh, including myself that it was

Michael Riley: kudos to you.

. I, uh, I, I think I know which
post you're talking about.

I think I picked up nine clients
off of one Facebook post , so yeah.

I guess I need to do more marketing.

Imagine that.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

Weird signed guy.

That, that actually does marketing.

That's

Michael Riley: like a, it's an

Bryant Gillespie: anomaly is what?

It's a ping one that flies or something.

Right.

I was really struggling to, to
come up with something there.

That's, it's a technology.

I can tell you guys what
kind of fun I've been

Michael Riley: having.

Yeah.

What have you been up to?

Brian?

Car

Bryant Gillespie: shopping.

Car shopping again?

So we, we just got my wife a new car.

She had it for about three weeks and,
uh, some young buck decided to jump

in front of her car on the way to
work and, uh, didn't end well for him.

Didn't end well for the car.

My wife is okay, thankfully, but
we have totaled two cars in two

months, so that's where we're at.

Michael Riley: Just for my own

Peter Kourounis: clarification,
cuz I'm, I'm a bit up north.

When you say Young Buck,
that's not a young kid.

That's a, that's actually
a young deer, correct?

.
Bryant Gillespie: That is a deer, yes.

Peter Kourounis: Okay.

Just want, just wanted to make
sure that you didn't commit

like a hit and run there,

.
Bryant Gillespie: No, I, I was being
vague, uh, intentionally there,

but yeah, no, it was, um, it was
just a, a young male deer that for

whatever reason, decided to play in
traffic eight o'clock in the morning.

Not wise, he

Michael Riley: just did it.

I still can't get over the
fact that she totaled two cars

within a month of each other.

Like that's, I can't believe
you guys still have insurance.

Like I feel like your insurance
company should have dropped you by now.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: The cease and
desist letter this week comes

from the insurance company,

Michael Riley: Farmer's Insurance.

Bryant Gillespie: Uh, the insurance
is, we've got really great insurance.

Yeah.

It's like the teacher insurance horse man.

So, and like a, if a deer, if you hit
a deer and there's nothing you can

do, it's considered an act of God.

So they can't really penalize
you for that, or at least

that's what they told us.

Michael Riley: That's, uh, that's good.

That's very interesting.

Bryant Gillespie: I'm not
saying go get like your truck

and go hit deer on purpose.

Just

Michael Riley: Bryant Bryant told
me you guys were cool with this.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

So I, that's what we've
been wrestling with.

Other than that, uh, just staying busy.

Michael Riley: So, have you
guys picked out a new car yet

or are you still still trying

Bryant Gillespie: to Uh,
we're, we're deciding.

My wife likes nice cars, so we're
looking at a Mercedes E-class right now.

Use one, uh, not a new one, but,
uh, hopefully by the time we record

the next one, we'll have that
sorted out because we gotta take the

rental car back tomorrow afternoon.

Michael Riley: on a scale of one
to 10, how sick and tired are you

of shopping for cars right now?

Uh, I'm probably at like an eight

Bryant Gillespie: and
I enjoy that process.

My wife is probably like at an
11, uh, just totally defeated.

Like I feel so bad for her, you know,
like you have the car that you wanted and

then a deer just jumps in front of you.

You know, I'm, I'm

Peter Kourounis: actually interested.

I have a question Cause I recently
bought a, a couple of vehicles here,

but I bought mine through an app.

Cause I hate the experience of
a car dealership experience.

I mean, we preach on how to sell
signs here and, and how to coach

people on how only selling signs
do not do it like car dealers do.

Like that to me is like
the worst of the worst.

But I, but buying it through
an app is actually right.

Very simple.

It actually just got delivered
here this afternoon on a flatbed.

Like it was seamless.

So Have you tried

Bryant Gillespie: that?

Uh, we looked at Carvana, but they
wouldn't deliver it to our house because

we live in Podunk, West Virginia.

So we had to, we would have to drive two
hours to pick up the vehicle, which is

like, at that point every might as well.

My wife hates it.

Like, I, I like to play that
game and , I, I don't know why.

It's like some, I, no, it's probably
something I need to go to therapy for.

But, you know,

?
Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

Yep.

Yep.

I'm sorry.

I'd rather listen to people nickel and
dime me over graphic design than ever have

to go to a car dealership used or new.

That process is just, I feel like
the moment you walk in the door,

they're ready to bend you over.

Like that whole, like that whole
process from beginning to end.

And when you're finally sitting
in with like that finance manager,

she's like hitting you with,
do you want rim protection?

Do you want wheel protection?

Do you want extra years on your warranty?

I'm like, I already gave, I
already signed away half of my

life and spent 18 hours here.

I'm not looking to spend another
hour with you, talking to you

about, well, the what ifs.

Well, we have really great dent
coverage and really great rim.

Uh, I was like, what
the heck is road rash?

Oh, road rash.

Yeah.

That's when your curbs
run against the curb.

Uh, your car rims run
against the curb, you know?

Doesn't that happen?

It's like $400 or rim to fix.

I could, uh, if you pay now it's $89.

Like, lady, stop making my hair gray

.
Bryant Gillespie: And that's why haven't
I heard your, your impression of this

lady, this unnamed car lady before

Peter Kourounis: Lorraine.

Her name is Lorraine.

Her name is Lorraine.

It's not even Karen, it's Lorraine.

It sh it could be
Beatrice depending on the

Michael Riley: day of the week.

Re reminds me of the Secretary
in, uh, in Monsters Inc.

You guys see that

Bryant Gillespie: movie?

Yes.

I don't know.

I don't remember the
secretary, Mike Kowski.

Peter Kourounis: Mike, you
know, would you like to add

that road to your car warranty?

Bryant Gillespie: That's

Michael Riley: it.

, no, I, it definitely seems
like an industry that's like,

just primed for somebody to
come in and totally disrupt it.

But it's, it's amazing to me that
nobody can or has yet, like, it's

like the, it's the last holdout of
moving to, uh, you know, CarMax,

Bryant Gillespie: Carvana,
like a Carvana True car.

Peter Kourounis: Like
every, like, everything.

If you buy a car through those apps, I
think you'll have a much easier time.

But if they don't deliver to you, then all
right, you gotta go into the dealership.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

So, enough, enough about the car shopping.

Let's get into it today, Mike.

I know you're a pretty hard
fanboy of Sign Craft Magazine.

I'm

Michael Riley: freaking out over here.

I'm freaking out.

I'm like, who,

Bryant Gillespie: who do we got about
the Shake Outta My, who do we got?

We got him.

Who is it?

We got him.

Michael Riley: Tom Mcle
Trot of Sign Craft Magazine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is exciting.

I, this is Sign Craft was like, and, and,
and still is to an extent the mm-hmm.

, you know, the Bible of,
of sign making for me.

I mean, it just, what an amazing, amazing
magazine that it it is and was, and,

and I've learned so much about the craft
and the art of making signs and, and.

You know, all the skill that
goes into it and the design.

So for me, I'm like, I
didn't sleep last night.

Like, I'm just, I'm giddy with
excitement to talk to this guy.

Like, it's, you have no idea.

This is Mike's Christmas.

Yeah, it is.

Seriously like Christmas and February.

This

Bryant Gillespie: is,
this is gonna be awesome.

All right.

Michael Riley: No, this is it.

Like this is, this is the
pinnacle of my career right here.

Like, like I have peaked Ooh.

Right now.

And it's all downhill after this.

So.

Bryant Gillespie: All right.

We'll never talk.

Bring him on.

Let's bring him on.

All right guys.

So we are back with Tom
Mcle trot of Sign Craft.

Tom McIltrot: Welcome on Tom.

Thank you, Brian.

Appreciate it.

Thanks for the invitation.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Super

Michael Riley: nice to have you.

Yeah, we're really excited you're here.

This is cool.

Great.

Bryant Gillespie: Hey, Mike said
this was his Christmas . Oh, yeah.

.
Michael Riley: Yeah.

I, I had a sleepless night
last night in anticipation.

I'm

,
Tom McIltrot: like

Bryant Gillespie: so many of
us, like a sign craft when we

were coming up in the industry.

I hate to date myself, I don't know how
many years ago it was now , but like, sign

Craft was, that was how we communicate,
or like how we learned the trade was like,

okay, yeah, I could pick up Sign Craft.

I've got these detailed articles with
all the photos, step-by-step of how

to make this sign or how to design
something, or how to price something.

And you know, I, I know certainly
I wouldn't be here today without

Sy Craft, so just thank you
to get that outta the way.

Well, well,

Tom McIltrot: thank you very much.

That's cool to hear.

Appreciate that.

Bryant Gillespie: Mike, do you want to,
do you wanna get your love letter now?

?
Michael Riley: Same for me.

I mean, I, when I started in the industry
back in the mid nineties, I, I mean, just

devoured every epi issue, a sign craft
I could get my hands on, and I've still

got, you know, several hundred in storage.

I need to dig those out
and go through 'em again.

. Yeah, I would say 80% of what I.

Know about this industry I
learned from your magazine.

Um, great.

It, it was the greatest thing ever.

I mean, I, I loved it.

I mean, all the way down to like, I
would even geek out over the paper

and the print quality in it, which
was just , you know, several steps

above any other magazine out there.

Tom McIltrot: And it was, yeah.

Well, thank you.

I appreciate you noticed that.

We were, we were always.

Proud of the, of the stock and
the, and the print quality.

And that was a big thing for us
since it was a graphics magazine,

you know, a visual experience.

So we were, we were kind of,
that was important to us.

Yeah.

It made

Michael Riley: a, it made a huge d I
mean, you know, we're all geeks about

that kind of stuff in this industry, and
it definitely made a huge difference.

I mean, it just, the, the tactile feel
of it when you flip through pages, I

mean, it's, it's a much more engaging,
fun experience to read a magazine like

that versus one that's printed on, you
know, like tissue paper, , so, right.

.
Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

So, thanks.

I, I feel like we, we like know the
story of Tom through Sy Craft, but I

really don't know the story of Tom.

So like, give us, give
us your background.

Like how, how did you get
started in the sign industry?

How did Sign Craft come about?

Tom McIltrot: Sure.

Well, like a lot of folks our, my age,
our age, I was, um, in high school

and whatnot, wanting to do something
with my hands, something creative,

and, uh, worked in a cabinet shop for
a while, worked in, uh, A couple other

kind of hands on businesses, but one
day I was on my way home from school

and there were a couple of guys, three
guys on a billboard in front of a new

development and, uh, back in the field.

So I swung the car off the road and
trudged back there through the muck and

got, got there and asked them, how do
you guys, how do you learn to do this?

And two of 'em said, oh, don't bother.

It's too much work, . And one guy
told me, uh, you just need to get

some old cool sign books and, uh, and
start practicing learn how to letter.

Well, I missed that part.

I, I, I got home, but I
was still cranked about it.

So I, I started thumbing through the
yellow pages and calling sign shops

and seeing if anybody needed help.

So I got all the way to G two shops told.

Same thing.

If you can't let her, we don't need you.

You know, we don't need
somebody to sweep up.

So, but I got the G and called gene
signs and uh, gene answered the phone

and as luck would have it, he had
a young woman there through a D C

T program at high school, you know,
part-time cooperative training person.

And she had just quit.

So I told him, he said, what can you do?

I said, I'll do anything, you know, I
can paint boards, I can answer the phone.

And so I went there and he had a small
traditional commercial sign shop, and, uh,

Started hanging out there every day after
school, even on days he wasn't paying me

and didn't want me and didn't need me.

Um, and tried to make
myself indispensable.

I dug postals and and stuff
and we, we clicked pretty well.

And so after about a month, he, one day
af after I punched out, he said, you know,

here one minute, take a look at this.

And he got a piece of yellow show card
out and slapped it on the easel and

gave me a number six Quill with some
dite poster color and said, watch this.

And he drew me, drew some
lines with his yardstick, you

know, right across there and.

Letter to one stroke, a bunch of one
stroke letters, and, um, and then you sit

here, try and, um, so I did and it was
a god awful experience, you know, and I

still have the, I still have that first,
uh, piece of show card, um, somewhere.

But, but that was it.

I was hooked on making
letters with a brush.

So I, I just went home and built an easel
in the garage and started practicing.

So I was about 16 or 17 at the time, and I
worked there for about three, four years.

And I'm a native of Pennsylvania, so
my, my family at the time returned.

They moved back, they had only
lived in Florida about five years.

They went back to Pennsylvania and.

in that same time.

Both of my older, my brothers, my older
brother and my younger brother wound

up working at that same sign shop.

It was growing like crazy.

And he, by then he had about six
employees, and of which we were three

of, you know, half the staff , um, right.

And, and we, uh, so we,
he, he was getting, he had

gotten into screen printing.

We were printing real estate signs and
t-shirts and, and we were doing all

sorts of flat signs, painted signs.

So, so when we decided to move
back to pa, we went up there and

moved back to the small town that
we were from north of Pittsburgh.

And there was no sign shop there,
so there was no place to work.

So we, we just figured,
well, we'll open one.

And so we went into the signed
business, totally green.

Like I say, I was maybe 20 and.

Made all the classic mistakes, worked
there for a couple years and then

decided Florida was a lot better
place to live and work and everything.

While we were there, we um, we got in
sandblasting signs, saw Big John Brice's

book advertised in signs of the Times, and
we, and we blasted our first signs there

in pa and when we got back to Florida,
it was a completely different market,

much better market for blasted signs and
developments were popping up everywhere.

And so we did that for a couple years.

And in between we were all single.

Three of us traveled around a lot.

Whenever we did, we stopped in sign
shops and we'd connect with people.

We'd either get chased off
or we'd connect with people.

One of the two . So when we, when we
connected with folks, we often wound

up sending photographs back and.

I was talking to Chester Cunningham at
the time who I had met through sign of the

Times and seen his work there and, um, he
hooked me up with Big John Burell and, and

some folks like that Chuck who Depo and
Bob Sealander, all old time traditional

sign guys who were top of their game.

So they would send photographs to to us.

We would dup 'em and send em to him.

The other folks we knew.

And somewhere along in the line in
there's one of us decided, Hey, wouldn't

it be cool to have a magazine just
for sign painters, which is what we

were primarily, you know, at the time.

So we kicked it around a little bit.

We, we went to the library and
photocopied a thousand sign shop

addresses out of the yellow Pages.

For some reason, the, the library
had yellow pages for the, for

all the major cities there.

And so we just Oh wow.

Got our, got our dimes out and photocopied
all the, all the pages we needed.

We went home, typed up mailing
labels, wrote a letter saying,

here's what we'd like to do.

, it's gonna be nine bucks a year.

It's gonna come out quarterly and it's
gonna be a magazine for sign shops.

It was, it was a very self-serving thing.

It was, we did just what we
wish was coming in our mailbox.

So we sent it out.

We got 88 people who sent us
back 88 Brave Souls who sent us

nine bucks to, to give it a go.

And, and that was it.

We got started in 1980, printed a
thousand copies of the first issue.

Wow.

Went back to the sign shop and slid
'em in envelopes and sent 'em away.

And, uh, a year or so later, we sold the
shop to some friends of ours to get the

cash we needed to start printing color.

Color back then was incredibly expensive.

Separations were 300 bucks
a page for an eight by 10.

And, um, and color printing then
was, was really high priced.

So, but there was an explosion coming
that we didn't realize with print.

Print production was getting
easier and more affordable.

And so we just kind of
grew right along with that.

And a couple years later, it was
a full color magazine and, uh,

and the subscription's history.

Wow.

Yeah.

The subscription, the
subscription numbers just grew.

We, we were amazed.

We were totally amazed the, the, and
the cool work that came in, in the

mail, you know, envelopes from first,
from like Raymond Chapman and m Marelli

then, and they told other folks.

And then I, I distinctly remember the
day I got an, an envelope from this

cat in Bloomington, Indiana, Gary
Anderson, and slid his photographs out.

And the, the one on the
top was Bloomington Winery

on the top of that stack.

And it, it went on the cover
of that next issue at the time.

And, uh, it was just the start
of a whole bunch of really neat

friendships with really creative
people who were amazingly willing.

to share what they knew.

And, uh, we, we, we had worries
about that initially, about are we

gonna be able to get enough material?

Are people gonna tell us stuff?

Yeah.

And we had been chased out
of sign shops, so we knew it.

Sometimes it was, it was a
touchy subject trying to What

Bryant Gillespie: were those conversations
like when you guys went into a sign shop?

Like you just, like cold walked up to
you, uh, somebody else's a sign shop.

Sure.

It was like, Hey, we're sign guys.

Can we hang out and chat?

Like,

Tom McIltrot: yep.

And I, and you know, I, I remember
going to one in Vermont, Dick Flynn,

he's gone now, but, um, he was a
really cool guy, a great sign Carver,

and a good solid sign painter.

We walked up to his shop and, and
he was out front lettering a truck.

And he worked from,
from studio in his home.

And, and so while he was talking,
while we were talking, he.

Reached up and pulled the
overhead door down to the shop.

So , we couldn't quite, you know, it
was like in the old days, we used to

say, oh, a sign, another sign guy, you
know, hide the patterns, um, hide the

work orders, . Um, but, um, so, but
we went on to become great friends.

Uh, and Dick was a big, um,
proponent for, uh, for us,

encouraging us to do sign craft.

He, he was a great guy and, but, you
know, some, some, it's, it's really

probably not too different than it is
now for you guys visiting sign shops.

Some shops are very open and
very motivated and they're

excited about what they're doing.

They wanna do new things and
other shops are more in a niche.

They don't really wanna
maybe do any experimenting.

They don't really wanna talk,
uh, about, about the work.

So we just always were able to
connect with, uh, droves of,

of those folks who were really.

Energetic about what they were
doing, and, um, it was inspiration.

It, it juiced us up and,
and drove the whole thing.

We really didn't do an awful lot of
promotion by, by the early nineties

when you guys, I guess, would've started
seeing it, it was going to 22,000 sign

shops in 74 countries, I believe it was.

Wow.

And uh, and it's an incredible little
niche of really creative, inspired people.

Michael Riley: Did you ever have
any trouble getting content for the

magazine from people, or were people
just beating down your door to submit?

Tom McIltrot: Right.

No, the first three issues we had
to work pretty hard at, and Chester

Cunningham was still alive then, and
he, he said, Tom, you're not gonna.

Information.

There's not enough of the people
who are really enthused about the

work and, and you're not gonna get a
steady flow of articles and material

photos and stuff for articles.

But, but it didn't pan out.

It, it actually went the other way.

And even to this day, I have
the exact opposite problem.

I, I always have to suffer
through sorting out what I'm

going, what I'm going to use now.

Because there's this massive amount
of, um, of work that I'm aware of or

people have shared with me, you know,
that I wanna get in the magazine.

It was murder in the print days,
especially because, you know

what, we, we'd have, um, four to
six pages for a profile and that

was maybe 14, 16 photographs.

And somebody would send you 90
pictures, you know, or 40 pictures

and you'd spread these all out and
it's like, oh no, use this one.

No, we gotta use this one.

So it's like, it was, uh, it was
always tough, but, but man, it was fun.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

That's really cool.

So who, This is, this is probably
a hard, hard question to answer.

What, what was your, your favorite article
You ever, you ever ran in the magazine?

Do you remember?

Or have there been so many
that it's like possible

Tom McIltrot: to change?

Oh, there, yeah, there have been so many.

I, I think the, um, I, I enjoy the
design driven articles the most probably,

cuz I, I think that's what created
Sign Craft was the idea that a sh a an

individual sign person had their own
style and they, they could create this

cool stuff and it gave them something
to sell beyond letters on a board.

You know, there were a lot of guys back
then doing hand lettering, but a lot

of it was just functional kinda stuff.

But, but then when you started running
these creative people like God Almighty,

Bob Boho, Tom Kelly, all the folks in New
Jersey, you know, Glenn Weiss, Gerber.

Quimby names of those.

There's so many of those folks that
really, every one of those articles

became a, a favorite, you know,
it was like all that energy from

those, from those creative people.

So

,
Michael Riley: I, I remember, I think
one of my favorite issues you guys ever

released was, uh, like mid, late nineties.

It was, uh, kind of a spotlight
on all the Jersey guys, and it

was a, you know, a whole issue
about Jersey's style lettering.

And that, I mean, I still draw
inspiration from that to this day.

, you know, that that style has
really like, you know, kind of

stayed back in the nineties.

Uh, there's, right, what a,
what an amazing wealth of,

of knowledge and information.

Just that one, that one
issue had from those guys.

It was, yeah.

Really, really cool.

Hey Tom, I

Peter Kourounis: welcome to
the, welcome to the show.

I just wanted to introduce myself.

We've never met.

Big fan.

I was very pleased to see that we
were able to get you onto the show

here, and I'm so happy that you
answered that Mike's last question in

that way, because that's really what
resonated with me and this magazine.

I couldn't wait to talk to you about this.

So it's a good segue into this topic here.

Design I I, I.

For me, the magazine was a godsend
to learning what were, what others

were doing around the country.

Yeah.

Uh, just being introduced to different
artists and different concepts and

ideologies and methodologies of doing
things and what software they did it in.

And this is what was the before and
this is how they got to the after.

Uh, I, that's what I
looked forward to the most.

I don't have a collection of your
magazines that are in storage like

Monk does, but , I kept, I kept a,
a, a large amount of selection in

my lobby of all of my locations.

I, it was a requirement for my franchise.

Almost every one of my locations
had a subscription to your magazine

so that they were in the lobbies
of their locations as well.

And customers loved reading it.

I think it was a really great, uh, value
add from, um, from a customer experience.

Like, Hey, this is what.

Maybe you can be inspired by
perusing through this magazine.

You like that word, right?

Bryant Gillespie: Perusing

Peter Kourounis: perusing through
that magazine to get some inspiration.

Right.

Because, you know, your average consumer
doesn't really know what they want.

So if you can reference examples of
sign shop owners across the country,

I mean, I used your magazine as, as
an asset, as a tool in my tool belt.

Mm-hmm.

, um, just from my own perspective in
being introduced to different designers

with their portfolio and, and, and, and,
and showcasing their work has made me,

has pushed me to be a better designer.

And I'm sure you hear this a
lot, I'm sure you get this a lot.

Can you speak

Tom McIltrot: to that at all?

Yeah, yeah.

We do hear it a lot and
it's always good to hear.

It's, it's, um, you know, Syra,
we were able to be a clearinghouse

for all that good stuff.

That, that's what I think
the significant thing was.

And so many people have told me that.

Uh, and we realized this when
we were starting to get all

these photographs of cool work.

From other people.

When a customer is standing there and is
telling you, you know, I need a sign to

cut to the chase, it's so good to be able
to show them a few things and narrow that

sign that's in their head down to what
their appeals to them or what they, their

thinking or what's their budget is for.

And so a lot of folks have told us that
they use the magazine that way because

it, it kind of, uh, really when, when
a customer looks through a dozen or

two dozen or three dozen photographs,
something's gonna flip their switch.

And so you can kind of, you know where
to go because, you know, it's like Ken

Malar used to say, when people said
that, you know what, I need a sign.

He said, well, you come to the right
place, I can make you one for $20.

I can make you one for $20,000.

So all we gotta do is figure
out where you are in between.

So, so, yeah.

And, and you know, Peter, you probably
realized this too, from the magazine.

Wasn't it amazing to unearth all
those kind of regional sign styles?

We, we didn't realize there was this going
on at all when we, and, and so for us,

it was an education as we went along to
see the, the Chicago school, you know, of

the, the Chicago designers and to learn
how those guys had gone to California in

their fifties and created another whole
west coast style that was happening there.

The jersey work, the, the, the
traditional carved New England, uh,

car hand carved gold leaf science
that were all over New England.

You know, it's like, I had never seen
one of those in real life until I got

to Vermont, you know, and, and here
they were on every store from a hardware

store to a, you know, to a, b, and b.

But that was really that genre,
you know, there in the Northeast.

And then San Jose, which Mike Stevens,
um, built his whole, um, approach around

that was another whole design school.

So there's probably.

Eight or 10 US design schools like that,
I think that, uh, that we could identify.

But, um,

Bryant Gillespie: and you know,
did you like the sign historian?

Almost

.
Tom McIltrot: I just got exposed to a
lot of cool stuff by a lot of inspiring

people and I'm really grateful for that
and, and to have known these, these

folks and, you know, so much of it
back then was definitely not like this.

We, we did it over the phone and
through, uh, you know, handwritten

letters and notes and stacks of
pictures wrapped up in pattern paper

that, uh, that showed up in the mail.

So it was, uh, it was a pretty
vibrant time, especially cuz there

were a lot of, besides that group
of people who were sharing this

stuff, there was armies of folks
like you guys who were hungry for it.

Pre-internet.

There was, it was, there weren't a
lot of places to get that information.

There weren't any really

Yeah.

So, right.

Bryant Gillespie: So, right.

And, and they like the, um, Mike
and Pete and I talk about the early

days of like signs 1 0 1 and like
some of the signs specific mm-hmm.

Forms that popped up when the internet
came around and, you know, it was very

much that mentality, like you mentioned
of like, Hey, I've come walking into

these guys painting on a billboard and
I'm like, Hey, I want to get into this.

And everybody's like, no, get outta here.

Like, go get a real job.

Like you don't wanna be a side guy.

So I can't imagine what that was
like before the internet though.

Oh, you,

Tom McIltrot: yeah.

Yeah.

I remember one cool old sign guy in a sign
shop in Pennsylvania putting his arm on my

shoulder and saying, son, go be a barber.

That's where the money is.

So,

Michael Riley: um, in hindsight, do you
wish you would've taken that advice,

?
Tom McIltrot: No.

Needless to say I'm really happy
with how, how things went here.

I, I, uh, I'm really grateful to have,
to have, you know, bumped into this

and, and all these cool people and,
and to have been able to, to share it

really with folks around the world.

Got a really nice letter, uh, emailed the
other day from some folks in Amsterdam

who have a bunch of the old magazines.

I have no idea where they got 'em.

And, and really loved, you know,
just wrote the sandwich, they loved

it and how much, how helpful it was.

And that's pretty cool.

Yeah.

That is cool.

Bryant Gillespie: Everything that
is old once becomes new again.

Yeah.

We put, um, we've got a, a Facebook
community for sign shop owners and at

the other day I posted like, give us
your take on the future of the industry.

And a couple people came back and said,
Hey, like Gold Leaf is coming back, uh,

tra you know, like these, these craft,
the craft of signage is coming back.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, you've had like a front
row seat to the industry over, uh,

the last, you know, 30, 42 years.

40 years, yeah.

42.

I was, I was, I was thinking like 1980.

I was like, man, that's, yeah.

Yeah.

Like, like what kind of like big
shifts have you seen, you know,

have you like, oh, hey, this is
like a, a changing of the, the.

Tom McIltrot: Yeah, well, the computer
of course rewrote things for every,

for all of us, not just the sign
industry, but for printing, the

printing industry and, and everything.

But, um, I think there was a, like a
renaissance time there in the seventies,

eighties, nineties when people were
really interested in kind of doing things

with their hands and having a business
where they were kind of in full control.

They, they talked to the customer,
they did the cool design, they car

the letters, they laid the gold
leaf and planted it, you know?

And so, but I think that
that's harder to do now.

There are still folks doing it.

It's, you know, the cost of living and,
and the cost of shop space and, and

everything, the cost to get into the sign
business have all gone up exponentially.

You know, before it was just
a matter of a box of brushes.

And, um, so I think the, the big
difference is that we've, We've gone

to this full digital thing and I
just did an interesting article with

Shane Deford, who's been, who started
out as a sign painter, became a sign

carver because vinyl was coming in,
did sign carving and workshops and

everything up in Canada for years.

Burned out, took a hiatus and, and
has come back to carve incredibly

beautiful signs and probably go some

Michael Riley: workshops again,
just to insert something here,

if anybody listening has never
seen Shane's work, , look him up.

Prepare to have your mind
blown, like talk about, yep.

Unbelievably talented guy.

Like this guy is one of the most
incredible sign makers I've ever seen.

Tom McIltrot: Yep.

Shane darnford.com.

Another, another website we could share
with folks to check out is solo signs.com.

Uh, lane Walker's, Reno Sign Shop.

Who, who is just that?

He works alone, works solo hand,
lettered letters, everything.

Some incredible truck work, uh,
is leaving that shop every day.

So there's, uh, there are a lot, and,
you know, it gives me an idea actually

for a cool article sometime is to collect
all the websites of that folks really

should start visiting because there's
just a tremendous amount of, of mind

blowing work there to, to check out.

But like I say, I can see it in, in
folks like Shane's career that some

of these folks are coming back to us
or coming back to hand lettering and

carving and whatnot, and they found a
niche again with part of the business

community that, that values that like,
you know, tattoo parlors, barbershops.

Cigar shops, coffee shops, pubs.

There, there's a market for
creative handmade signs again.

And, and if, if somebody's really
into more of a production mode and

they're, they're into, you know,
to do, wanna do printed or do wanna

do electrical, there's, there's
so many opportunities there too.

So, Mike,

Bryant Gillespie: what do you
like, what's your take on this man?

Like, I, you know, we, we've beat the
dead horse a couple times of where

like, this is why you got in the
industry was to do the nice signs.

Like do you think they're, do
you see them, Megan, a comeback?

Michael Riley: I do.

I I think that when I, when I got
into the industry in the, in the mid

nineties, I, I think the, um, you know,
that was kind of right as the computer.

And, and vinyl cutters and everything,
were becoming pretty mainstream.

I mean, they pretty attainable
for every sign shop.

And that, that definitely shifted
the, the trajectory I think, of

the industry as a, as a whole.

Mm-hmm.

, we talked about this a little bit
with, with Dan Antonelli, uh, when we

had him on the show about, you know,
there's, there's very little barrier

of entry to the industry, right?

I mean, if you've got 30, 40 grand,
you can buy a plotter and apl a

printer and you know, computer
and you're in the sign industry.

And it's funny, you know, Tom just said,
you know, back then and you 50 bucks in

brushes and you're in the industry, right?

But the barrier there was you gotta
know how to use those brushes.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

That's feel like, yeah.

Yeah.

That's a huge, that's, that's a funny,

Michael Riley: yeah.

You didn't say . Yeah.

I mean there's a big

Bryant Gillespie: difference there.

is pretty easy to spot, right?

,
Michael Riley: right?

Yeah.

Well that guy doesn't know how to use,
like, you really spot the guy that

doesn't know how to use his, his role
in, but you definitely can spot the

guy who doesn't , you know, lettering.

Tom McIltrot: Um, very true.

Michael Riley: And, um, so
I got into the industry.

And wanted to do the types of
signs that Seine Craft featured.

I mean that, I mean this, that
was like pornography for me.

. Like, I can't put this down.

I can't, I, I have to make this stuff.

I have to learn how to make this stuff.

And, and, and I did, and I found out
really quickly that at least where I was

the market for it was, was dying out.

It was really hard to sell hand carved,
high-end gold leaf signs and Yeah.

Uh, and Dayton, Ohio, where
everybody really wanted going

outta business banners and Yeah.

Um, I, I think that now 20 plus years
into that whole quote unquote digital

revolution in the sign industry, I think
people have finally started to wake up

and realize that these are, these are only
tools and they don't really do anything

other than what you, you tell them to do.

And I think that people are starting
to recognize that, yeah, technically

it's a sign, it says my business
name, but it's not, there's no artist,

there's no, there's no craft to that.

There's no art in that.

And I think people are really
wanting to see a return to, to that.

And a lot of the signs that I'm designing,
especially in the, in the last few

years, have really taken a shift towards.

Craft in, in it, in, in wanting
to see something that's not just

a, a flat digital print slapped on
a piece of dive on or something.

Mm-hmm.

, I think it's still got a ways to go
and I, I do think that, and, and the

post you're talking about on the,
the Facebook group, Brian, um, I,

I, I mentioned this is in a comment.

I think that as weird as it sounds, it's
really easy for all of us to, to kind of.

Talk down on the current, you know, young
generation, generation Z I think it is.

Whatever, it's , . But, but you
know, those kids are, they grew up

with, they, they don't, they don't
have any reference other than the

internet and, and, and they're Yeah.

In that younger generation.

It's interesting.

They're recognizing the value in
handmade things that I think a couple

generations prior to them don't quite
see because that we, we experienced that

transition from handmade to digital,
and so we're, we're almost blind to it.

But this young generation, they,
they didn't experience what

it was like before digital.

So they see this and there's
a, there's a massive nostalgia

value to them, like mm-hmm.

, look, this is so cool.

It's before my time.

This hand painted, hand carved gold
leaf sign is so much cooler Yeah.

Than this digitally signed.

So I think it's, it's coming full circle.

I think that vinyl and digital are
starting to settle into their place and

not be, you know, and just become seen
as, You know, a tool or a means to an end.

And I, and I think, and I'm seeing
a lot of people really being willing

and, and interested and paying a
premium for that quality handmade look.

And I, and I hope in the next
10 years, that really becomes

the dominant thing again.

I don't know if it will, but

Tom McIltrot: Yeah, that'd be cool.

Yeah, it'd be cool.

But, you know, you, you already see
it in, I think like in restaurant

interiors and restaurants and,
and pubs, interiors, coffee shop,

interiors, there's a lot of interest
in using signs as like decor mm-hmm.

and, um, and they want 'em
handmade, you know, for that stuff.

Mm-hmm.

. And so that, I think there's, there's
some interesting trends there.

Yeah,

Michael Riley: yeah.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

It's, it's interesting how it's, it's gone
from such a utilitarian thing to actually

being a desirable almost piece of art.

I mean, it is, it is art.

Mm-hmm.

, depending on how you define art.

And I think people are finally
starting to recognize that.

Again, I think it was true in the
past, and I think it'll be true again.

I hope anywhere.

Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

I'm with you.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

So, hey.

Hey, Tom.

We've talked about, hey, kind of
the current state of affairs, like,

and you know, where we wanted to go.

Where do you, what's your take on
the future of the sign industry?

Like where do you, where do
you see everything going?

Hmm.

Tom McIltrot: Well, I think really to
echo what Michael's saying, I think

there's, as long as the economy stays
strong, there's gonna be a market

for creative, creative science.

And that gives a leg in for the
folks who want to have that type of

focus for their, for their business.

There's no doubt it's easier in like
tourist markets or urban markets.

It's like Mike was saying, Dayton, Ohio.

I came from Western PA north
of Pittsburgh, rust Belt City.

You know, it was very hard to get
anybody to turn loose of any money.

Mm-hmm.

for a sandblasted sign.

But when I got back to Fort Myers,
when we got back to Fort Myers, is

that real estate development exploding
and the beaches becoming much more,

um, with a lot more tourist traffic.

It was easier to get, um, to
get folks to, you know, write

a check for something cool.

So it's, it's, I feel bad for folks
who are in a market where it just isn't

happening yet, or maybe never will happen.

So they'll have to kind of sprinkle those
cool signs that they love doing and with

the, the more functional stuff they do.

But at the same time, even, even the
everyday, you know, bread and butter

sciences, the design side of it can keep.

Can keep you enthused and, and energetic.

You know, a lot of the sign painters
I worked with in the early days

there, they, they really never had
an opportunity even to do gold leaf.

I mean, there was, nobody was
doing gold when I was 20 years old.

I actually had to learn it from
a, an old retired sign painter

that I read an article about
'em in the, in the newspaper.

And I went and pestered him and,
and got him to show me how to,

how to glassgold do glassgold.

And, um, and he kind of, it was
kinda like a novelty for him.

And, uh, his name was Chet Board
and he said, uh, it's like, you

know, why do you wanna do this?

Nobody's gonna ever guild
their glass windows.

Glass will guild glass again on
windows, because companies move

too often, you know, and, and
names change too, too often.

He said, you know, before if you
let it, a bank window, it stayed

there until the window broke
or the, the lettering fell off.

You know, the, the bank
was just gonna be there.

So that turned around.

I mean, look at all the cool, uh,
barbershop and tattoo glassgold

masterpieces that are being done.

And I hope everybody's getting
paid for their time, but I know

they're having a good time doing
it because we can tell, right?

We can tell when we look at their work.

But, uh, I think there'll
be, there'll be some of that.

I think personally, I think the
emphasis is gonna have to go

back and continue to go back to
design because really in most shop

situations, that's what we're selling.

Especially with computer
equipment, kind of it . Yeah.

Right.

Compu computers level the field
as far as the production side.

And so if you stay with just how
fast and how cheap you can produce

signs, It's, it's, it's mud wrestling.

It's no fun there.

And there's always gonna be somebody at
the flea market or in their garage who is

totally inexperienced or maybe has other
source of income who will do it for less.

So competing on that edge is always messy.

Whereas if you have, if you, you know,
beef up your design skills and you have,

have something to offer on the design
side that the customer can see with, with

your portfolio or on your website or your
Instagram page, it's like, Hey, this guy

or this gal, whoever it is can do, can
do what I need and give me that edge.

I think there's more business owners
who are kinda looking for that now, and

there's still folks who are gonna come in
and say, this is what my nephew designed.

This is what I want.

And I really do want the letters right
out to the very edge of the board.

So, and you have to decide whether
you're in the position to say

thanks, but there's a shop across
town who'll take care of you.

You know?

Or like somebody told me recently,
just close my eyes and click print.

Michael Riley: I, I'm glad that you,
you said that about design, Tom.

It's something that I'm, I'm, every time
I get the opportunity to, to preach that

to people I, in this industry, I, I do.

I think, and I, I think with, with
the rise of computers and, and digital

technology, I think a lot of people
in this industry have lost sight of

the fact that we are, we are in the
design industry, we're in the marketing

industry, and our customers don't
care about how the signs are made.

They care about how it looks.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, and I, I think that, you
know, like, I, like I just said a

minute ago with, with, with that
rise of technology, it's allowed

people to get into the industry
that don't have the design chops to.

You know, to produce what the
customers are, are wanting.

And, and I, I think the, the late nineties
and the early two thousands were kind of a

sad time for the industry where everything
was, you know, whatever, you know, font

bundle came with sign lab or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

.
Tom McIltrot: But I, I think

,
Bryant Gillespie: sorry, did I?

Aerial, VEA, , uh, what's

Michael Riley: the, what's the other one?

Olive Nord.

Everything was antique Olive.

Yeah.

I Or Euro style.

That was a good one too.

Yeah.

Yeah.

If you wanted something
modern and contemporary.

I, yeah, I, I think that, and I think
that's, that's something that Se Craft

did such a great job wa of, uh, was,
was putting that first, you know, all

the other sign industry magazines, they,
you know, all of 'em kind of touch on

design, but really they're, they're,
they're much more manufacturing and,

and business driven, which is fine.

And that's all super important obviously.

But yeah, I think you, you know, you
did such a great job of, of making.

You're making that point that the,
you know, design is the front line

of what we're selling and it's the
first thing people see and it's

the last thing they react to after
they, their signs on their building.

And, and the emphasis has to be, be that,
and, you know, even like Bob Boho did,

I'm saying that right, Bob Boho behing.

Yeah.

That's mean.

They were, they were amazing.

I mean, this, this guy taught me to think
about how I'm laying out a, you know, a

for sale banner or a, you know mm-hmm.

a job site sign or something, and put,
and not just straight line black and red

hellvetica, but, but actually put some
serious thought into the layout on a, on

a, you know, a four by eight site sign.

Mm-hmm.

and, and like that's, that was
such an eye-opener for me that, you

know, it doesn't have to be boring
and plain and, and black and white.

Yeah.

And look like every other sign.

Tom McIltrot: And you know, the cool
thing about design is once you get those

chops, once you get those fundamentals,
you can, um, you gotta jump in.

You got a question, Pete?

Yeah, I'm

Peter Kourounis: sorry guys.

Hey, Tom.

It's very nice to meet you, sir.

I gotta jump out, but I just
wanted to tell you, I just

wanted to ask you one question.

Sure.

Uh, and then I'll, I'll have to jump out,
but I, I can't wait to hear the answer.

You mentioned the design.

Mike and I raised our fists in
the air in celebration for that.

You

Bryant Gillespie: know,
it's, it's a matter

Tom McIltrot: of where

Peter Kourounis: can our listeners, the
people that are listening to this podcast

today, where, where can they go to?

In your experience from the resources,
you know, where can they go to

like propel their design skills?

If design is what we're selling,
what, what would your response

be to someone that says, how can
I take my design team and like

elevate what we're currently doing?

Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

Yeah, that's a tough question,
Peter, because there's

really not one single source.

Probably the closest thing we have
to it is Mike Steven's book, uh,

mastering Layout, which, but it's
a little bit of a complex re read.

It's, it's a, it's a challenging book
to read sometimes that the principles

are there, the fundamentals, and then.

I guess the, the next best source
I can think are all the things that

people have shared in se craft, you
know, all the, the kind of, and you

know, the nice thing about the articles
were they were just like nuggets.

You know, you didn't have to
sit down and digest a whole

encyclopedia of, of information.

You could get one thing
like Bob say ma uh, an art.

All the articles Bob wrote
about on simplicity and, and,

and on we're on using script.

And I think it's best to learn those
things one little bite at a time.

We've been doing a, a series of
articles on the, on the site lately

on individual aspects of, of design.

Like last week I think it was, um,
uh, use using copy blocks to message

blocks to break up and control copy.

A few weeks before that
we did negative space.

And so those kind of, you know,
learning those little, learning

about it a little bit at a time.

Is, I think, easier than trying to
take it all in and, um, and then

critique your own work against it.

Uh, that's always hard.

You know, there probably need to be
more workshops for, by outstanding

designers on how design works
and learning the fundamentals.

You know, there's a, there's a bit of
a design drain on the industry when,

uh, when computers came along because
we lost some people to, uh, like web

design and graphic design where there
was a, you make a better living over

there and do some cool stuff still.

And so we lost some of that.

But I do think there's a lot of
folks who have returned and, um,

and are doing interesting work that
we can still pick their brains and,

and see why they do what they do.

Michael Riley: So hopefully this isn't
like a, a painful question to answer.

I apologize if it is.

What's your, how do you feel about
the state of publishing right now?

Obviously you've moved,
signed Craft online.

Mm-hmm.

, which is painful for me.

Honestly, like I, I, I hated to see that.

Like I said, I mean, just the
tactile quality of the magazine

was, was a huge part of appeal.

How, how do you feel about that?

Tom McIltrot: How well you can
imagine after 42 years of print,

print publishing, what, what a shift
it was for us and it, it cannot,

we cannot call it the same mm-hmm.

there, it's a drastically different
way to deliver information.

The, uh, you know, before it was a
matter of designing spreads and, and

designing the whole magazine so that
as you went through it, you found

what you needed and maybe you learned
something that you were, was unexpected,

you know, in the next article.

And then we had that, we always tried
to maintain a mix of like, some 3D

work and some truck lettering and some
flat signs so that there was a little

bit for, of everything for everybody.

That's, that's impossible
to do on, on the web.

You know, we, we do our two or three
articles a week and we can't really.

Choreograph like you can
with a, a print magazine.

To me, print will always be king.

It was a, it was a, uh, a great
way to deliver information.

It's a tremendously portable
source of information.

You can take it out on the porch with a
cup of coffee and fold down corners Yes.

Of the pages and come back to Yes.

And, you know, I can never, half the time
I can't find the article that, you know,

I, I'm plundering through my history
sometimes looking for something I mm-hmm.

I saw a week ago.

But, but with a print magazine, like
I say, fold a corner down, put a

post-it on it, come back to it later.

So, and, and I hear this that I hear all
day long, a lot of our readers are older

readers who have been kind of begrudgingly
drugged along into the digital world.

So, um, but um, you
know, it is what it is.

It's it for us to see that.

I mean, even the printers, the printing
companies that we used, For you, which

were big Midwestern web printers who
printed and mailed small circulation

magazine like ours from the center of the
country to take advantage of the postal

rates from coast to coast and stuff.

Most of them have folded or
merged with other companies.

It, it's a literal bloodbath mm-hmm.

in the publishing industry
that that's happened.

And, and it's not, it's not gonna stop.

It's not gonna come back.

There are successful special
interest magazines that are, people

are doing now that are more, they
call 'em Bookazine more or less.

They, they don't really go out a style
outta date with a cover date so much.

They're on a single
topic maybe and whatnot.

And those will probably be
around, you know, they'll,

they'll, those will survive.

But as far as the serial publication
where somebody's banging it out every

other month or every month though,
that's getting harder and harder to do.

And, uh, some things you just miss
terribly, like, where's the cover picture?

Where's the cover photo, you know?

Mm-hmm.

. So very often, you know, we get, somebody
will send us a link to some photos and

we'll flip through there and you know,
Dennis will look over my shoulder and

say, oh, there's a cover, you know?

Yeah.

But there is no cover

.
Bryant Gillespie: It's
definitely not the same.

You know, I was, yeah.

I was talking to Mike the other day
and I was like, I was, I was like,

my wife is a deer has hit her car.

The car is totaled.

And we'd been car shopping
all day, but, Hmm.

I had got a, I got a physical
catalog from a sign supplier that

was like 150, 200 pages thick,
and I thought those were dead.

And it was like, okay, like at
least there's one bright spot.

Yeah.

. Because along with Sign Craft,
like looking through all the, the

catalogs of like sign suppliers
was like how you found it out about

new products and things like that.

Right.

Like, oh, hey, I've never tried this.

This particular vinyl
or, or whatever before.

So there,

Tom McIltrot: there's no doubt.

We, we made a tremendous amount
of progress thanks to the

internet and, and how we can share
information and connect everything.

But at the same time, some really
good things were lost in the shuffle.

You know, some, the tactical
experience, the, the way to, to be

able to refer back to stuff is easy.

And, you know, in print magazines,
the articles often took on a life

of their own because people returned
to them and they also referred to

them in future articles and stuff.

And you can make that connection.

Digital information doesn't
have that kind of life.

You know, really the, the articles we
do now, kind of in a few weeks, they're

kind of just back there in the archives,
you know, on the webpage and, yeah.

So you don't have that kind of reaching
back to like, somebody sent me a picture

of their, of their stack of sign crafts
a year or so ago and, uh, they were

dog-eared beyond recognition . They,
they were, you could barely tell that

they, I mean, some of these were from
back when we were Saddles station, you

know, had Staples in and, and they,
the staples had long since given way

and it was just this pile of, of pages.

But man, I thought when I saw man,
somebody had a really good time

here looking through all those.

Yeah.

That's awesome.

They got some, swipe some ideas
and sold some jobs and That's cool.

We, what's

Michael Riley: cool about magazines
that I don't think a website or

online magazine will ever be able to.

Accomplish is when you get a, a
copy of Seine Craft, you know, a

printed version of Seine Craft,
you're gonna read it cover to cover.

You're gonna look at every single page
and there's gonna be articles in there

that you might not otherwise have
read, but because it's right there,

you're like, oh yeah, that's cool.

That's interesting.

Jersey style, semi-truck letter.

I'll never letter a semi-truck in New
Jersey, but I'm still gonna read the

article cause the pictures are pretty
and I'm gonna learn something from it.

And I, you know, I think when that
kind of information moves online,

it's not, it nothing forces you to
stop and pause and, and, and absorb

that information for a second.

You're gonna click on what appeals
to you, what you're looking for, and

you're gonna, the rest of it's just
gonna kind of become background noise.

And I, I think that losing that, I think.

Saddest thing for me because
that's how I learned so much.

Wasn't like, okay, I'm only gonna read
this article on this issue, but I'm

gonna read the entire damn article.

Yes.

The issue from front to back
multiple times, like you said,

and then mine looked the same way.

Like mine are, a lot of mine are
just destroyed because I've gone

back and re-read them cover to
cover every time, cuz I'm looking

for one article, but I'm gonna read
the whole thing when I open it up.

Yes.

And, and that just, it, it soak soaks
into your brain and in a way that online

content just never will be able to.

And, and that's what I
think bums out the most.

Mike

.
Tom McIltrot: Absolutely.

Mike.

That, that was so well said, . That was,
uh, that's worth, that's worth watching

this podcast over for what you just said
because the, um, it, it's actually, and

I've read some about this, I've read
a lot about it, that it's changing how

we read and how we think, you know,
online information changes, how we read.

You'll notice.

Things have gotten shorter and shorter.

You know, a lot of people are
saying 200 words is, is like

the two minute YouTube video.

You know, they say, you know, if
your, if your YouTube video runs over

two minutes, you know, you lose x
number of percentage of your viewers.

So the attention span is getting
smaller and, and it forces

people to write differently.

Mm-hmm.

and to kind of jam all.

Information early enough in the article
that, that, rather than have, have

it like a meal where you could give
somebody their little appetizer, then

a little bit later serve on the main
course and finish up with dessert.

You kind of gotta slop it all on one
plate now in the first 200 words and

try to get 'em to, uh, and hope they'll
stay with you for the rest of it.

Brian,

Bryant Gillespie: bulleted?

Yes.

Yes.

Well, I just, from my own experience,
I'll tell you, like I, I've written

for several industry magazines at this
point, but it's, it is for all online

content and very frustrating to try and
jam a topic into 500 words, especially

like something that you're passionate
about and you feel like there's.

Not enough information out there.

It's very difficult to do.

But that's, like you said, that's the
attention span at this point, right?

It has to be bulleted.

You've got three, 400 words to, to
teach somebody something, but you, how

do you, you can't, how do you do that?

Tom McIltrot: Mm-hmm.

, right?

You know, and when you're writing for
SEARCHs, you've gotta repeat phrases

so many times and all that stuff.

It, it, it really changes the
tone of the, of the writing

and the feel of the writing.

So yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's
a big loss to in that regard.

Michael Riley: So, so
Tom, what can we all do?

What can I do to get
sign craft back in print?

Well, whatever happened,
can we make it happen?

, can we start a kick, kick Kickstarter

Tom McIltrot: or something here?

I dunno.

I have had so many requests like that.

Like, I, I don't know.

I, we've thought about revisiting
a, a revisiting print as either

like an annual or a semi-annual.

Magazine and, um, so there, there's
always the possibility for one

thing, we, we love doing them.

So that, that's the greatest impetus.

And I, I, I believe that there are enough
of us out there that value print that,

that we could, could get an audience.

So it, it's, it's not out outside the
real of possibility, but it's, it's, let's

Bryant Gillespie: set up a
pre-order right after this market

for the annual edition cycle.

,
Michael Riley: honestly, like if you
even just did like an annual, you

know, 300 page bound book, you know,
something with a hard cover mm-hmm.

, that was like a collector's item.

I, I would totally pay several
hundred dollars for that.

Like, without even thinking about it.

I mean, it, it would, well, thank you.

And I'm not alone in that.

I know that a lot of people would, and I
or I, I'd pony up a couple hundred bucks

a month, a year for a subscription to, you
know, a, a quarterly publication as well.

I mean, I, I just uhhuh , I, I think
there's a lot of people out there are

that are just absolutely desperate for
that and, and, and, and missing that.

And I, I know like, It's a tiny industry,
and no matter how much we're all willing

to pay, it'll, it'll never overcome the
hurdle of, of, you know, the current

state of publishing and how expensive and
difficult it would be to, to, to recreate

a magazine like SE Craft, you know?

But man, I wish we, I
I wish you would do it.

. .
Tom McIltrot: Well, it would be fun,
and like I say, I, I, I'll, uh, I'll

keep it on the table here for us.

So, , um, the, uh, you know, the, the,
there is, there's just something about,

and I mean, all of us had special
interest magazines that we got back

in those days if you fished or if
you were a photographer or whatnot.

And so waiting for the, that copy of
that magazine, whether it was SE Craft

or Popular Photography, Um, you know,
outdoor sports, American sportsman.

So waiting for the magazine was part
of the, the deal, you know, getting,

getting the mail that early in the
month and expecting to find your, your

magazine there, and then you just kinda
scrolled it away and save some time

that night to start flipping through it.

So, yeah, it'd be fun to, to,
to help revive some of that.

Michael Riley: W well, if you ever
decide to and you need some extra

manpower, you, you let us know
because we will be there with bells

on to help you, or at least I will.

That's pretty cool.

I guess I won't speak for, but I'll,

Bryant Gillespie: yeah,
no, uh, that's cool.

Yeah, I've got, I've got three
little girls to think about, but

yeah, my dad, well you guys are
on the, the other side of Florida.

My dad's in Pensacola, but, um, yeah.

I think we can make it work.

I'm down.

Yeah.

.
Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

I'll move to Florida.

Michael Riley: Yeah, absolutely.

If, if

,
Bryant Gillespie: if Mike is gonna
go to Florida, you know, we're doing

something now because Mike hates
the, the bombing weather down there.

Michael Riley: not a big Florida
person, but, but I would totally

do it in a heartbeat if, if
that opportunity ever take.

Okay.

Tom McIltrot: Well I can tell you a
hurricane, a hurricane like that last

one will, will make a lot of people,
not Florida people, , especially some

of the, those of us who are here for it.

So , but maybe the Florida
reputation has been seriously

tarnished there with that, but, so

Michael Riley: for sure.

Bryant Gillespie: Well, uh, this feels
like a, a pretty good closing point guys.

Um, Tom, is there anything you want to
say to the audience before we sign off?

Like any advice you want to give, like,

Tom McIltrot: I guess I do, I guess I do.

There's, there's a secret that I've
heard over and over again in, in the

from sign people about, Being successful
at this and, and that is show up.

You'd be surprised how many people
I've told that we published a

magazine for sign people whose
their comeback was sign people.

I called four sign shots before I
could get one to, to come over or,

or you know, I went and talked to
a guy, he never called me back.

You know, that, that is bad for
business and it's bad for the industry.

And so really, you know,
customer service is, is critical.

And, um, you know, the whole underpromise
and over-deliver concept, the shops

that I know who are most successful,
they nail it on the customer relations

and that idea of delivering stuff
on time or ahead of time and it

contributes to their, to their success.

So I.

Everybody.

That's a, a little secret I think
that I've heard over and over again.

That could, um, could work for in
everybody's favor and you can charge

more when you do that, when you, when
you meet people's needs, I think now more

than ever, when you satisfy customers and
meet their needs, you can charge for it.

Bryant Gillespie: So, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's, that's so simple, so understated.

But it's like hugely important what
you just said, like, yeah, kinda show

up, answer the phones, call people
back, do what you said you're gonna do.

Yeah.

It's so, yeah, it goes

Tom McIltrot: without saying kinda,
it's kinda like, look back to the, to

when you were first in business, you
know, and, and the phone wasn't ringing

and, and somebody did call all the way
across town for a sign for a hotdog shop.

You dropped everything and burned it
over there, and then you put a little

extra juice in the design and, and
you got it over there and installed

it on a Saturday, and, and they loved
it and they were happy with you even

if it was a mediocre job at the time.

But that kind of, you
intrigued customers like that.

Make some customers forever for life.

Absolutely.

Michael Riley: That's well

Bryant Gillespie: said.

Absolutely.

Mike, any pardon shots?

Michael Riley: I, I can't say it
any better than that, honestly.

Like that's, that's a
brilliant piece of advice.

I, I think we should probably do a
podcast episode on, you know, on, on

that topic, to be honest with you.

I think it's something that we've
not touched on, um, too aggressively

yet, and maybe we can get Tom back
to to, to chat about that, that

end of the industry a little bit.

No, I, I, I, I totally agree.

I mean, I think showing up
is 90% of the battle and

Tom McIltrot: Yeah.

You know, I, I can tell you too that
I, I have, and all of us, bill, Dennis,

John, we, we have the utmost respect.

For signed people because they have a
really unique business, a really unique

hole to fill in the economic picture,
and they don't give very many kudos.

Usually they get dragged
on or, um, neglected.

But, um, to me, they're some of the
most interesting creative people in

the business world, and they, they do
more to for how a community looks and

feels than almost everything else,
maybe even more than the architecture.

So, like I say, my, my hat is always
off to every sign person who's, who's

out there slugging it out and, uh,
and putting up with all the bologna

that, that they have to deal with.

And they're, and they're
still churning out cool stuff.

Michael Riley: Yeah,

Bryant Gillespie: definitely.

Definitely.

Yeah.

That's a, that's a good parting
line, . I, I, Tom, uh, I, I, I don't

even know if I need to ask this, but
how can, uh, anybody who was interested

learn more about you and sign craft.

Tom McIltrot: Oh, okay.

Yeah, just hop over to sy craft.com.

Dot com.

. Yep.

Pretty easy.

Bryant Gillespie: If, if nobody,
if, if somebody is listening and

doesn't know sign craft shame on you.

Number one, . Get over
to Sy Craft right now.

Check it out.

. Um, do you guys have any,
like, back issues for sale?

Like, uh, or those are we do we

Tom McIltrot: have about, uh,
about, I think it's just over half

of the issues still available in.

Oh, nice.

Great.

Re uh, resource, you know, I, I've
been meaning to put together some

bundled, uh, copies either by the
year or something, some packages

and Oh yeah, definitely work.

Yeah.

That way we could work the shipping
down to where it was affordable

because they are expensive to ship.

But, we'll, we'll work on that and
get something on the site maybe

where folks can get a, you know,
get 20 issues that they can get back

through back, go back through and
snag some of these great articles.

Cuz so often when I look back through
these articles, these magazines,

I see that this great stuff that
people have shared, it knocks me out.

I, I think that folks wrote articles
and gave away really good, solid

ideas and, and information and it's
a shame that they're, that they're

just sitting on a shelf somewhere.

So, but yeah, we'll

Bryant Gillespie: look into that.

You guys should definitely do
that because it's, you know, a

sign craft to me was always about
those nuggets that you mentioned.

Mm-hmm.

like, hey, I, if I could just get
one nugget out of the magazine.

Like I, I, that's going to, I, I could
use that nugget for a lifetime, so.

Mm-hmm.

. Yeah, for sure.

That's a, that's a good point to stop.

Tom.

Wow.

Thanks for coming on.

This has been great to have you on.

Um, I think I, I, one of my goals
at the start of the podcast was to

have you on as a guest, so I could
definitely check that box now.

I appreciate you, uh, Mike, anything

Michael Riley: else?

I'm just geeking out over here.

I don't think I've smiled this much
in throughout an entire episode.

Like honestly, I don't, it sounds kind
of insane to say, but like you've,

you and, and what you've done for
the industry, I mean, it's al it

is always been inspirational to me.

So it's been, it's, it's really an
honor to have you here and to meet

you and, and we really appreciate
your time, really, really do well.

Thanks so much.

I, we'd love to have you back
if Don't, don't be a stranger.

I mean, we, okay.

Glad to more information and
knowledge and, and stories in your

head, I can imagine than just about
anybody else in this industry.

And I feel like we should, you know, make
it like a quarterly thing or something.

Just have Tom on and tell his
stories from back in the day.

like, how cool would that be,

?
Tom McIltrot: Well, thank you
so much and thank Peter for me.

I, I really appreciate the invitation
and, and I really enjoyed, uh,

hanging out with y'all today.

That, that's, uh, It's a pretty
good feeling to hear all those

good things about Seine Craft,
so I'm pretty well juiced for

the, for the next quarter, so I'm

Bryant Gillespie: excellent.

Great.

Well, Tom, we appreciate you.

Thank

Tom McIltrot: you.

Thanks, Tom.

All right.

Take care.

Thank you guys for everybody.

Take care.

All right.

We'll see you.

Bye-bye.

You're welcome.

Bryant Gillespie: All right,
so that is the episode, Mike.

Rapid takeaways, rapid fire takeaways.

What, what are, what are
we closing this one with?

I, I feel like that one
was a killer episode.

I

Michael Riley: don't, I don't even
know where to, where to go with

this one, to be honest with you.

Yeah, that was just, that was a like a,
Icing on the cake of my career to talk

to him and, and interview him on that.

It was, it was really cool.

I mean, he is definitely one
of my idols in the industry and

just a, a wealth of knowledge and
history in this, in this industry.

I, I think, uh, it's cool
to hear some of his stories.

I like, I really would love to have him
back on and hear more, cuz I, I think

that guy could probably talk for, for
hours and hours about his experiences

and the people he knows in the industry.

But yeah, it was, it was awesome.

Take away, I think he reinforced
something that I'm always preaching

about and that is, we're selling, we're
selling design first and foremost.

We're selling marketing and, and you
know, if you're not putting your emphasis

on putting out quality designs out
there, you're hurting your business.

You're hurting your customer's
business in the industry as a whole,

Bryant Gillespie: a hundred percent.

Like if you're not doing the
work, if you're not acting like a

professional, like a, like it or
not, when you take a job from a

customer, you are now responsible for
whatever outcome they're looking for.

Whether that's driving more customers
to their business with a sign.

Or promoting awareness for their
cause, or, uh, even just driving

signups to the peewee football
team, whate, whatever that is.

Like, you've gotta rise to
the occasion and, and make it

Michael Riley: happen.

So, yeah.

And it's a, it's a topic that's
come up more than once on this,

you know, with our guests.

You know, Dan Antonelli obviously
we've mentioned that was definitely

a big, you know, big pusher of that.

And it's interesting to hear that
continue to come up time and time

again, which I think says something.

I hope people are paying
attention to that.

And I also really like that
Tom closed it out by saying,

just show up, answer the phone.

You know?

Right.

Do the work, . Yeah.

Yeah.

Which is hard for some sign people to do.

I mean, we've all been there, but Yeah.

I What a, what a great conversation.

I really enjoyed that.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

Yeah, I did as well.

Uh, you know, to me it was more about a,
just taking nuggets from that conversation

and taking nuggets from Sy Craft, like
that's a, that really resonated with me,

you know, over the years I feel like,
When, when I've tried to like, take on

too much at, at one time or like, Hey, I'm
gonna learn this, or I'm gonna learn that.

I always struggled.

So, you know, just commit to getting
a little bit better each day.

And that was, that's what was great about
getting the, the published magazine of

Sy Craft was just like, Hey, here's one
technique that I could probably use in the

next week or two for a particular project.

Mm-hmm.

, you know, I could be inspired by the rest
of it, but usually I always got one nice

little technique or layout that I might
be able to emulate in my own designs.

Michael Riley: So to, to not take at
least one thing away from every issue

is sign craft I think is impossible
or you're just not reading it.

should, like, everyone is, is amazing.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Cool.

All right.

Well, before we close out, I would
like to thank our sponsor, GCI Digital.

If you are looking for a wholesale
or trade printing partner for large

format or wide format or grand format
printing, I, I've seen those new

printers that TJ and the team have got.

They are massive.

Uh, if you are looking for a trade
printer who has good customer service

like we just talked about, look up print
gci.com, gci, digital owner, TJ Beat Act.

We had 'em on the podcast, episode nine.

I wanna say check 'em out.

If you would like, if you are interested
in being a guest on the podcast, send us

an email at, hey, better sign shop.com.

We'd love to hear your story.

We really like to talk to people.

As you could tell, this is like
two hours by now, I'm sure.

If you are a sign shop owner,
make sure you look up the Better

Sign Shop community on Facebook.

It is our free community
for sign shop owners.

And, uh, if you like everything else,
take a look at Mike's website, letterbox

Sign design, scope, some of his work.

Just don't steal it.

Come after you.

Alright, what is it?

D M C A.

You'll get the take down notice.

Be inspired, don't blindly copy.

Michael Riley: Thanks, Brent.

Sounds great.

Love it.

Bryant Gillespie: All right.

All right guys.

We'll catch you on the next one.

Thanks for listening.

We appreciate you.

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