Better Sign Shop Podcast

Learn how to build a better
sign and print shop from a few

crusty sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

workflow, growth, and more.

Your listening to The Better Sign Shop
podcast with your hosts, Peter Unis,

Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.

Alright guys, welcome back to
the Better Sign Shop podcast.

Is it, this is still the
podcast, I think it is.

Alright, is it I am your
host, Brian Gillespie.

I've got the signed burrito,
Michael Riley with me.

I was hoping that we'd
forgotten about that by now, but

we haven't forgotten the nicknames.

No guacamole.

It's the elephant in the room and
obviously it's been a minute since we've

laid down any tracks in the studio.

How the hell are you, Michael?

I'm hanging in there.

I've survived 2024 fairly well.

Okay.

I don't remember, what was it?

I guess it was 2023 the last
time I, uh, had this microphone

shoved in my face here.

So it's been an interesting year for me.

I've kind of stepped away from
the podcast and, uh, my business a

little bit slowed things down, um,
trying to regroup some, but, uh,

it's been a, been a year for sure.

How about you?

It's been a year.

I think that's the, the theme.

Yeah.

Lots of, lots of stuff work-wise,
family-wise, obviously.

Like we did, like, I, I don't know
if it was out of necessity or each

one of us just kind of got busy.

Like we, we stepped away from
the podcast for a bit and kudos

to the listeners out there.

Like if my inbox is full of people that
are like, Hey, are you guys, is this done?

Or like, you guys gonna
record some more episodes?

Or like, what are you doing?

I guess that's a good thing that people
are like, you actually want more of our.

Incessant rambling.

Like that's, I'll take it as a compliment.

Thank you guys.

It's good to be back.

I'll call it a win.

Yeah, call it a win.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, for sure.

Well, today we're gonna discuss ai.

Uh, I've, like, internally, I've
titled this the ominous AI episode,

but I, I think we've got some,
some interesting remarks on it.

But like, tell me, like, are
you still doing sign design?

Like what are, what's the, what,
what do you, aside from still working

on your house, like what are you,
what are you doing day to day?

Yeah.

No, I, I mean, I'm definitely still
doing my sign design business.

I've just scaled it back quite a bit.

I've been dealing with, um, my, my
parents live in Ohio and I live in Oregon.

So, uh, my, my father has been battling
cancer for the last 10 years, and in

the last year he's really taken a,
a dive and I've been traveling back

and forth quite a bit and just my
brain has been occupied with that.

And, uh.

Have, uh, just had to slow the business
down for my own, you know, mental health

and, and step away from the podcast
here, a little bit, been spread too thin.

I think everybody can probably relate to
that at some point in time or another.

Um, fortunately here in the last,
uh, last month or so, we've finally

been able to convince my parents
that, uh, it's time for them to

sell their house and move out here.

So you mentioned the house project
that we've been, you know, remodeling

our money pit here for the last four
years is the main project, is kind

of, sort of winding down a little bit.

And we're about to break ground on
a, about a 500 square foot addition

to our house and remodel our garage
and, you know, adding some living

space for my parents to move here.

So, you know, I'm, I'm entering that
phase of adulthood where now I'm gonna

be the, the parent and I'm, I'm not
sure how I, how I feel about it yet.

I'm, I.

It's, uh, it's, it's,
it's terrifying, dude.

Like, I'm really frightened right now.

It's, uh, it's an interesting place to
be and, and definitely this year is,

um, like I said, it's with everything
going on, I, I just kind of, um, let

the business sort of, I don't wanna say
set on the back burner, but just has,

it hasn't had my, my full attention,

which, well, the last time we
talked you had like, more than more

work than what you needed anyway.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I was, I was drowning in
work and, and it was, uh, and you

know, it was right around the time
when, when, uh, my, my father's health

started to get, get bad again, and,
and it just became so overwhelming.

I just kind had to say,
you know, I'm gonna.

I need to scale this back by like 50%
here or a little bit, or I'm gonna, um,

you know, end up in a, a ball in the
corner in the fetal position shaking in

a padded room for the rest of my life.

So, you know, we're always harping on,
uh, um, you know, mental health and,

and then taking care of yourself first.

And that's something that, you know, we
still need to do that episode by the way.

Ah, yeah.

I'm down, man.

Yeah.

But this year's kind of been my mental
health here and my year to sort of, uh,

uh, you know, take a step back, breathe,
uh, focus on family and what's more

important than designing channel letters.

But, you know, aside from that, yeah,
yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm still who, you

know, I've still got my, my little
core handful of, of clients that

I'm, I'm taking care of and, and,
uh, uh, stand pretty busy with them.

Um, and it's, you know, it's fun,
you know, honestly stepping away from

it and not, um, being so consumed
by the sign industry and, and design

and everything like that, and having
a little bit of breathing space

from it has definitely helped too.

Like, I, I have more.

More room to be creative and my, my
brain is a little bit clearer and, and

uh, I don't know what the word, right
word there would be, but it's just when

you don't have it coming at you from
every which direction and you're not so

overwhelmingly busy that you can actually,
you know, focus on doing a good job and

putting out quality, you know, it's good.

So, you know, I'm taking this
year as a rebuilding year.

Great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which has been, which has been nice.

So it's definitely nice to be
back on the podcast for sure.

It's been been so long.

You know, I've kind of just wanted to
stick my head in the sand and pretend

like the sign industry doesn't exist
here for a little bit, like we all do.

Um, but it's, I'm excited to talk chop.

It's still maintain

it's a disease man.

Like it's, you get it in the
blood, you can't get it out.

No, you can, you can take a break.

Like maybe you go into
remission or something.

Exactly.

Yeah.

That's the right word for it.

It is, it's, it's totally remission.

So, yeah, for the last year I just
kind of was in semi remission, but.

How about you?

Oh

yeah.

I mean, I, you know, so like, better sign
shop, like the community's still rocking.

Um, we've got how many, like,
looking at it now, there's like

close to 700 sign shop owners.

And of course, like we verify
everybody is an owner or management

before we let them into the group.

But you know, like you, we kind of took
a backseat to life, you know, working

at a tech startup full time as well.

Um, so, you know, the, the sign industry
kind of became, uh, a side project,

which, you know, without that pressure
to like make this the whole thing again,

I think you gained that perspective.

Yeah.

So, you know, we like trying
to really define what.

Better sign shop is beyond like a
community or like how to turn this

into like a sustainable business that's
not just, uh, supporting me, but also,

uh, everybody else who's part of the
circle was a challenge, you know?

Yeah.

We tried a lot of things, uh,
that didn't necessarily work out.

You know, we went very heavy, uh, into
like this knowledge like process, SOP

thing because like through the consulting
work we were doing that's like, Hey,

everybody needs these systems or they
want to have all this stuff defined.

And, uh, like we over indexed on that.

And we also kind of got hit with what
we're talking about today is the, the AI

wave where like half of the stuff that we.

You know, spent tons of time generating,
uh, now can be generated in about half an

hour by somebody clacking into chat GPT.

So it was a learning year for you?

Well, a learning year,

yeah.

What did you, uh, what did you learn
about, um, well, about yourself

and about the industry in the last
year that you are surprised by?

What caught you off guard?

Uh, I, I, I think, ah,
that's a great question.

You put me on the spot.

I wasn't prepared.

Missed my deep philosophical questions.

The best question, um, yeah,
to throw in the, the Trump,

you went there.

I had to go there.

Uh, yeah.

I, I, again, like, I, I don't know
how much I learned about the industry.

Um.

I, the what you learn about yourself
is, uh, you know, I, I, I think

I've learned more of what I'm
great at and what I'm not great at.

That's obviously like a, a
thing that changes with age.

Yeah.

Where, where you're just kind of forced to
face reality of, of what you know, like,

Hey, here's exactly what you're good at.

Here's what you're not,
what do you, what do you do?

Like, you gotta, you gotta lean into
what you're good at and just kind of like

fade away from, from what you're not.

So, yeah, for me that's, uh, you
know, like solving specific problems,

I've always been pretty good at that.

Like, creating, creating problems
to solve, like was not good at that.

So,

so hopefully we're, we're
back on the right track.

Obviously, like, I, I've missed
chatting with you and Pete and, uh,

Pete couldn't make it here today.

But yeah, just getting back, I, I
think having fun with it as well.

I, I'm not sure if that's been a, like
a thing for you as well, but like.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, yeah, for sure.

And yeah, and for me, the last year, and
I, I mentioned to this the other day, we

were having a conversation, um, you know,
in the last year I've, I've learned, you

know, by, by, by taking myself out of
the, the whirlpool, I guess, and standing

over here on the side just kinda watching
everything swirl, I've learned that, you

know, really what, what drives my passion
in the industry, what, what I really enjoy

and, and what I, you know, what, what,
what talent and skill I, I, I actually

bring to the table and, and what I don't.

And, you know, and more importantly, I
think what I, what I don't enjoy, what

I don't like, what I don't bring to
the table and what I should, you know,

like you said, as a, as a, as an adult,
in theory, an adult, anyway, I don't

know, sometimes I still question that.

I

mean, I'm a

43-year-old man child in a lot of ways.

I, yeah.

You know, it, it,

men are stuck at 17, like humor
wise, or maybe even like 13.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We'll go on record.

Yeah.

Totally.

Yeah.

You should see, like my, my best
friend from high school and I were

on Instagram all day every day.

Just constantly like sending each
other fart memes back and forth.

Like, never grow up men.

Hold onto your youth as long as you can.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, so, you know, I, I
kind, kind of like trying to dip my

toe back into the, like I said, I
didn't, I didn't stop or step away

entirely or anything like that.

I just kind of turned it, I had
it cranked up to 11 and I turned

it down to like, there, you know,
turned out at like four and, um.

Now I'm just, you know, maybe slowly
turning it back up until I get to a

point, you know, I'm, I'm not just 'cause
it goes up to 11, um, doesn't mean I

have to crank it up all the way to 11.

And that's the kinda the lesson
I'm trying to learn here.

And, um, you know, I've, I've learned
that I've always had a nagging suspicion

that I really hate business, which,
you know, so admittedly sounds really

weird to say on a business podcast.

Um, but I don't, I don't know.

I don't, I just, I don't know.

It, it, uh, it's something that
I just don't, I don't enjoy.

When I was younger, the hustle,
I loved, you know, I loved the,

uh, the go get 'em, you know,
and grind until you drop kind of.

You know that when you're 20 in
your twenties and you got energy

and you don't have arthritis in your
knees, like it's easy and it's fun.

Um, true story.

Indeed.

Indeed.

Yeah.

And when and when you live in Oregon where
it rains half the year, you believe me.

It's fun when you have arthritis.

Um,

is it true what my grandmother says, like
a hundred percent Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Feel like right before it rains.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I, um, I make the old man groaning noises
when I stand up out of a chair a lot

more frequently when it's damp and humid
out when, than when it's dry, for sure.

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

It's, that's a, that's a
very real thing for sure.

But yeah, I've just, you know, I've
learned that I, I'm a creative person.

I'm not a, I'm not a numbers person.

I'm not a, you know, I know the
stuff, I understand the stuff.

I can do it if you put a gun in my
head, but I just don't want to anymore.

I don't wanna, uh, the business
stuff is just, it's like, I dunno,

I'm not a competitive person.

Something I've known about myself
for a long time is I, I'm not

really a competitive person.

That's why I'm not a huge sports fan.

Like, it's just kind
of, eh, cool, whatever.

And I think if you don't have that
competitive drive, um, business is

just kind of like, you know, it's
like trying to watch a, a baseball

game when you're not a baseball fan.

It's like, where's the hot dogs?

You know?

So I've learned that about myself
and, you know, trying to now avoid the

business world as much as I possibly can.

Uh, you know, moving forward and,
and focus on the creative side

of things and hopefully that, um.

That helps to sidestep some, some
burnout that I was experiencing before.

If I'm, I'm not so mired in the, the
business side of signs and I'm just only

focusing on the, the creative side of it,
which is what I got into it in the first

place for, you know, I'm a, I'm a maker.

I like to make cool shit.

That's all I care about.

Philosophy Hour with Mike

and we're back.

Uh, it wouldn't be a podcast episode
without any technical issues.

Uh, yeah.

For whatever reason my mic messed up and
now I'm back, but totally missed some of

what you were saying there, but Philosophy
Hour with Mike, is that what it was or,

yeah.

Philosophy Hour with Mike.

I, yeah, just was on my,

yeah.

Love it.

Did it, did it record
anything I just said or

just It did, yeah.

Yeah, we're good.

Like, it'll, it recorded
that it just didn't hear me.

So like on the video track
you'll see me like, yeah.

Like Wayne's World going
through the drive-through.

Amazing.

I like to bring this back to business.

I think that's an important
lesson to learn, right?

Like, hey, if you're not the manager
type and you find yourself as the

owner and de facto manager in the
sign shop, hey, what do you do?

Maybe you should not, uh, double down and,
you know, necessarily believe that you

have to develop those management skills,

right?

We, I mean, we all know, we both know
quite a few people in the industry

that shouldn't be running the business.

Like, you know, and that's
not an insult to those people.

It's just they need to recognize that
and, and get outta their own way and,

and let people do what they're good at.

And, and that includes yourself too.

You should do what you're good at,
not what you feel like you have to do.

You know, I mean, you could make
an argument that if you don't

like business, you probably
shouldn't be a business owner.

Um.

But

hey, hey.

Not to judge.

Not here to judge.

Not here to judge.

That's true.

Mm-hmm.

Well,

well, let's dive into the ominous tone.

Uh, I, I guess I called it ominous because
like, I, like on Netflix now, like once

you go like subtitle, you don't go back.

I'm not sure if you guys do that at home.

Like Ashley, like my wife and I,
like anything that we watch on

Netflix or whatever, it always has
subtitles, even if it's in English.

And like after a while you,
like, you can't watch anything

without the subtitles.

I don't know why

I, you know, I, I can't do like YouTube
videos without subtitles on, like, I have

to have the subtitles on YouTube videos
or, or Instagram videos if there're,

if there's like people talking, I, I
have to have that, but I, I haven't.

I haven't gotten to that with AR
or with, um, with Netflix yet.

So,

well, like my favorite part is
like the ominous music comes on and

it just like parentheses ominous.

Ominous music.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There, there's a couple of Netflix
shows actually, that I watch that

are, are in foreign languages.

Um, and so I have the, you know, the
English subtitles on and some, some

of the, the translations and, and
just, just like the, the narration

like that are, it's just hilarious.

I, I love it when they do that.

Oh, I love it, man.

Yeah.

It's, it's comedy gold.

Yeah.

All right.

So ai,

yeah.

Let's talk about what scares us.

Yeah.

I, I think we, we gotta kick this off.

He's like personal, spicy take on ai.

Yes.

You go.

I, um, how do I word this?

I, I'm, I'm, I'm, I.

Horrifically terrified of it, and
also like really excited about it.

At the same time, it's very
like, conflicting and confusing.

Uh, I feel very weird inside.

It's, I, I, I, I see it as potentially
like one of the greatest tools

that has ever, you know, been given
to humanity on one hand, or been

created by humanity on one hand.

But it also, you know, obviously there's
massive potential risks involved in it

that I think are very real, that aren't,
you know, that aren't alarmist when

you, when you really look at the speed
at which it's, you know, progressing.

Um, so spicy take, I, I think it's,
I think it's here to stay and I

think if we don't embrace it and
learn it and learn to love it, it

will, um, probably ruin our lives.

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't, I don't know.

I don't, is that even spicy or is it,

I I, I, I feel like that is the.

Middle of the road.

Yeah.

Like take, I dunno what else
to say about it, you know?

Well, it's your take though.

I, I honestly like, the take that I had
is excited but scared as a so same take.

Um, get your own material,

man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean it to me, like, I, I'm using
AI every day now and it, like, I've

made it a point to, I don't know why
I feel like I need to keep up with it

all, but, well, it probably be 'cause
I'm in the tech industry full time.

Right, right.

But, but it's just trying to keep up with
like the, the changes that are happening

like week over week with it Right.

Is like mind blowing.

So like for comparison, spring of
2023, uh, this is like April May-ish,

we ran a survey at Better Sign Shop.

Yeah, we had like 122 responses.

I'm looking at it right now.

The first question was like, Hey,
have you tried AI tools like Chat, GPT

Dali, which is the image generation or
mid journey, like 30% had tried them.

Only 11% would say I use them often.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, that's what like a year and a half
ago, it like fast forwarded Now, you

know, like I, I see on like all the
sign industry forums or groups, like,

somebody's like, Hey, do you have a, a,
a template for like, I'm hiring somebody.

And everybody's like, just chat.

GPT, it.

Right.

Um,

like un unfortunately for the product
that we were building, uh, we were like

most of the way through that and then, uh,
chat, GPT caught up with about everything.

But I, how many now

I wonder how many other people
were in that same boat as you?

Sorry, just that popped into my head.

Oh, yeah.

I, I can't imagine how many other
people were in the middle of developing

something, some product or service or
something like that, that just were just

like, well, shit, like now what do I do?

You know, like, what do

you do with this?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I think you have to like
lean into it, but mm-hmm.

Like, for me, on, on a spicy level,
like I, I think this is the thing

is gonna get outrageous a lot
faster than what we think it is.

Oh fuck.

It already is.

Yeah, absolutely.

Like a year and a half ago when
you did that poll, I don't think.

Anybody would've ever thought that
a year and a half later, a, it would

have advanced as far as it has, as
quickly as it has, or b, it would be as

ubiquitous in our lives as it already is.

I, I mean, that's crazy in such a
short amount of time, and that's why

I'm so afraid of it is, is because
it's, it's advancing so quickly.

I mean, it, it, it is, you know,
it's one of those things that,

like the, the Terminator isn't
really that far fetched anymore.

Like it could become a really,
you know, not, not to go down the

political rabbit hole, but I mean,
you know, we, it's so good now that

you can't tell fact from fiction, you
know, a real photo from a fake photo.

And that's happened in the
span of six months ago.

You could tell that's AI generated,
or AI wrote that, and now you can't.

Right.

So how do we, you know,
how do we control that?

Do we wanna save the doom
and gloom for the end?

I don't,

prob

I don't, I don't know how to like
structure this one other than just to

like dive into it, but I know right?

Like go into the deep end maybe.

Yeah.

Maybe let's like, okay, I'll table that.

Are you using any of the Yeah,
yeah, we'll save that for the end.

Like are you, are, what are
you using on a daily basis now?

Like, are you using Chad,
DPT, like any of these tools?

So in my, in my work, I use chat DPT
occasionally, um, being, you know, being

a sign designer, it, it's not gonna
generate for the most part much that

I can use outside of idea generation.

And, um, I, I, I definitely used it
quite a bit, um, for certain things,

like I need a really specific, you
know, watercolor style painting of,

you know, a good example, I, I had to
do a, um, a, a sandblasted sign, like

a fancy sandblasted gold leaf sign
for somebody's like fancy, you know,

vacation house out in the mountains.

And, um, they wanted a, a, a,
a painting of a moose and a.

Mountain stream with the
mountains behind and you can't

find something that specific.

You can't find that on any stock site and.

The, like most cases, the budget
isn't there to hire a, a, you know, an

actual painter or an artist to paint.

That is what, and I, you
know, and that sucks.

And you hate to say that out
loud, like, you know, we can't

actually pay an artist to do this.

But that's the reality, is you,
you can't pay an artist to do that.

In this particular case.

That's, that's, you know, we've all

dealt with that on like, personal
projects, so like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Budgets

are very real.

Like, you know, to pretend like we
all don't have budgets, whether we're

in business or personal, is stupid.

Like, everybody's got a budget and you
gotta find a way to work within it.

So, you know, like, uh, chat, GPT
created a absolutely stunning,

unbelievable painting that I was
able to drop right into the sign.

Customer loved it.

They got a sign that looks phenomenal,
that, that met their needs, and then

some that was well within their budget.

And, you know, without chat GPT, we
would've had to cut some sort of corner.

We would've had to use clip art or some
image that wasn't quite right, or we

would've had to go without the, you
know, that graphic on it all together.

So it created a solution for a customer
that gave them a beautiful sign without.

An unaffordable budget, you know?

But the flip side of that is, is
to manage the value of an actual

painter's work when, you know,
especially at a commercial level.

Um, like why would you hire a painter to
paint that scene when I can have chat GPT

do it for me in five minutes for free?

Right.

That's the existential threat going
back down the dark rabbit hole.

I'm sorry.

No, I mean, no.

You know, maybe we just say
like, address it head on.

Right.

I, I don't know how not

to like it.

Like it's,

this is like a, this is
the, the crux, right?

Because like I, I've shared with you
some of the experiments I've done.

Mm-hmm.

And like to me, like where it's gone
and, and I don't know, maybe I'll

share my screen and just like to show
like those of you who are actually

watching the video on YouTube can
actually see some of this stuff and,

and what's possible right now today.

And if it doesn't like somewhat
scare you, I would be surprised.

But, you know, as a
creative industry like.

You know, especially for somebody
like you and, you know, we've had Dan

Antonelli and like, there's the sign
industry is, is nothing but creativity.

Like, like put into like
a commercial setting.

Right?

Right.

Like that's, that's what it is.

Um, more than any other medium, I think.

Because, you know, if you look at like
printing, like commercial printing

on paper, like you got a format
like, Hey, I've gotta print a design.

It's gotta go on this piece of paper.

Okay, yes, I've got X, Y, and z, you know,
I can do whatever I want within the box.

Or like a t-shirt, you're, you're
putting a graphic on a t-shirt or piece

of clothing or, or bag or whatever.

The sign industry.

And I guess what always drew
me to it initially was like

you got unlimited options.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, you know, somebody, you know,
if, if the budget's $150, you probably

stuck with like a banner or something.

But, you know, given, given a problem
of, you know, hey, I need to let

people know that this business exists.

There's an infinite number of
solutions that you could create.

Right?

It's the same thing I love about it too,
is it's, it's, it's using your creative

talents to solve a real world problem.

And that's, I mean, that's like
the most rewarding thing you can

do as a creative person, right?

Yeah, totally.

But like he, all these AI LLMs or, you
know, even if we take like the, the image

generation models, like it's all trained
on stuff that has been put out into the

world by folks like you or other designers
and photographers and everything, and

it's like sucked all this stuff up and
now it spits out, you know, I, I won't

say variations of that, but you know,
like I, it filled to some extent, like

it sucked up that creative juice and
is now like using that and, you know,

I don't think anybody got paid for it.

So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I mean, if you.

Follow.

I mean, you, the, the Adobe scandal
here of late where Adobe announced

that they're using anything that people
use in their, you know, generative

AI tools, um, you know, on the
backend train their generative ai.

I mean, you know, they're basically
using what you create in their products

to train their own ai, you know, and
that's, there's so many, you know,

ethical gray areas there with it too.

But, so yeah, I mean, I, I think that
it's a, um, phenomenal tool in the right

hands if you look at it the right way.

But I, I mean, it definitely has the
potential to, I don't know if it has the

potential to totally destroy creativity,
but it definitely has the potential to do

serious value or to serious damage to the
value of creativity, I think, you know, or

like to the value of what
you do, like design, right?

Like

to some degree or another.

I mean, you know, like you said, I,
I understanding the way it functions,

the way it works and creates those
images, which it's not creating it.

Out of thin air from scratch.

Like, I think the name implies kind of
where like, you know, this is a computer

that's just painting this for you.

You know, it's, it's not, it's, it's
in a way, it's kind of building a

composite of millions and millions of
images, not, not creating from scratch,

if you wanna look at it that way.

So it's, it's, I don't think it's
ever gonna be able to fully replace

designers because it, it will
never have the human eye, right?

Like, it can't look at something
subjectively like a designer can.

And I think that's really the,
the, the key thing there that,

that everybody needs to be aware of
and, and, and keep in the front of

their mind is it isn't subjective.

It's totally objective.

It's gonna do what you tell it to
do and what it's trained on and,

and what source imagery it finds.

But it can't look at that.

And step back and say, that looks
awesome, or that looks like shit.

Right?

Like it doesn't, that's what it,
that's what it'll never be able to do.

And that's where the human factor
theoretically has to remain, is the taste.

Yeah.

I guess, if you wanna put it that way.

Right.

So I, I think it'll be, I, I won't
say a cold day in hell because I'll

probably have to eat those words, but
I think it'll be, I think it'll be a,

a long, I, I don't think it'll ever
fully replace designers or artists,

at least at a, um, elite level.

Oh God, I don't, that sounds
really conceited to see at a.

At a, at a, at a, at a high
professional level right now, it's

already way better at design than
a entry level amateur designer.

And it's way better at design,
frankly, than a lot of, you know,

designs that sign shops and print
shops and, you know, are, are putting

out there on the, on the street.

So I think, you know, it has the
potential to actually improve the

visual landscape if it's used right.

Um, but I don't think it's ever going
to replace a seasoned professional, you

know, true creative designer, right?

Like I, I I, I feel like the Dan
Antonelli's and, and you know, of,

of the world, um, are never gonna be
really, feel really threatened by it.

But those, you know, those are the
same people that aren't threatened by,

you know, a competitor opening up shop
next door either because they know the

value they bring is the, is is their
taste, not the tools that they use.

It's the, you know, it's their
subjective taste that they bring

to the table for people that.

Have to write for a living and create code
and things like that where subjectivity

is, you know, I guess writing isn't
really the case, but you know, the more

you remove subjectivity from the, the
end product, I feel like the, the riskier

your job probably is, if that makes sense.

Does that make sense?

Oh yeah, a hundred percent.

And I'll tell you, like, I'm like,
you know, from a, like a developer

perspective, you know, I still struggle
with calling myself a developer sometimes

because I, you know, it's not my
background and I only picked up like

JavaScript development to build the stuff
I wanted to build because I couldn't do

it with the tools that were out there.

I just wanna be, basically, I wanna
clarify for everybody listening right

now, that Brian's being extraordinarily
humble and this dude is, is like,

he's like developer, Rainman.

No, no, it's important.

I, I really think that it's,
it's important that people

understand that about you, that
like, you're, you're phenomenal.

And I'm not saying that you're
like a world class programmer.

You, you've got a long way to
go for that, but you're really

excellent at what you do, right?

So it's important that this, you're not,
you're not making this statement from

like, Hey, I am an amateur, you know?

Yeah.

I'm, I'm not an amateur.

We, we'll say that a hundred percent.

Right.

And, and like the, the thing, like
the, I I think for us as like an

industry is like em embracing that
intersection, like, you know, like

right.

For me personally, like being able
to blend like the, the different

experiences I've had together and, and
like being able to create something.

So like graphic design, you know, sign
and print design is not web design,

but like good design principles.

Good design is good design.

Even like as cross discipline, right?

Right.

So like if I'm developing something
or I'm coding something, I.

Yeah.

Like, I'm just gonna infuse
that into, to that work.

But I will tell you that like I, I've
used like some of the AI tools, like

one of the ones that I'm using a lot
is like, Claude is the name of it.

I pretty much, I canceled
my chat, GPT subscription.

I'm using Claude.

I pay, it's like 29 bucks a month for
it, use it for all sorts of things.

But like, if, if it's, it, like,
it is especially great for like

the coding perspective because
you've got somebody that has this

large repository of knowledge that
you can get instant feedback from.

Mm-hmm.

Basically, um, if there's a lot of
great developers out there, but having

one that's pretty good with you at
all times is like a huge level up

where you could just, you know, yeah.

Like these things still hallucinate.

They still like create
shit out of thin air.

Um, but the nice thing about
code is, is like you can just.

Pop it in there, see if it runs.

Like you can look at it and
see like what's going on.

But as a developer, like for me,
I'm fully aware that I am like

training a replacement when I use
these tools and that, you know?

Right.

Because I'm, I'm, I'm never gonna
go deep enough into programming to

be like, you know, the mythical,
like Silicon Valley hacker.

Right.

Like for me, it's,
that's not why I like it.

It it, I like it because I can
build the stuff that I wanna build.

Right.

For, for you, the, the payoff is
the end result, not the, not, not

the, you know, 10,000 lines of code.

Right?

I, I,

yeah.

I, I don't, yeah, for me,
I, I don't think I'll.

It, don't get me wrong, like it, it is
an art form for like the guys who are

expert programmers and they, you know,

right, absolutely.

Like, could

pick up any language, like watching
those guys work is a, is an art form and

mm-hmm.

You know, and for right, and for
them, writing the code is what

they, what they geek out about.

That's what they're there for or for you.

Like, you wanna see that functional
app or website or whatever, right?

Yeah.

Because you're, you're at the
end of the day, you're a creator.

Like, you're like me.

But I mean, that, that's, that's a,
that's I think the most important

thing for everybody to, to take away
from AI is exactly what you just said,

is that it's a, it's a tool to make
you better at what you already do.

And, and I think if, if humanity
embraces it in that way, like, it, it,

it will, I, I mean, in the next couple
decades, like, you know, humanity

is gonna advance at like an, an
astounding rate if we use it that way.

Um.

You know, research and, and like you
said, writing code and, and, um, I

just got a new, uh, Google phone and
it has Google's Gemini AI built into it

instead of their old, kind of like Google
version of Siri, which kind of sucked.

And the new ai, I mean, I
can just sit here and have a

conversation with it all day long.

And it, it explains things
to me as I'm working.

And, um, you know, our, our daughter
has some questionably skilled teachers

in her high school, I guess we'll say.

And she comes home with a lot of questions
that they're just not doing a good job

of explaining to her, or they're since
not, you know, it's not soaking in.

And we spend a lot of time on, on chat,
GPT, or she does really, they're not us.

I mean, she spends a lot of time on Jets,
GPT and I, I read through some of the

threads that she has on there and it's
amazing at explaining to her how to do

certain math things or, or whatever.

I mean, so yeah, if we use it right, it
can make us better people, it can make

us smarter and more efficient at what
we do and, and more productive and, and.

Yeah.

But is that a good thing?

Like is it taking the effort outta that?

Yeah,

you could, you could argue that
it's making us lazier too, or, you

know, I, I think it, like, there's a
difference in using it and depending

on it, I guess, you know what I mean?

Like it, right.

If you, I think that's where
it like, starts to delineate.

Like, it if you take like, design, just
because, you know, that's kind of like

the big point that we're riffing on.

Like if you're relying on this thing
to create, to help you in the design

process, but you don't have that
foundation, it's, you know, I, I,

that's where I get hung up on it.

Or, you know, if I'm using it to
develop an app and I don't, I don't

really know what I'm doing mm-hmm.

Or what the end result, like something's
gonna be, it's gonna go wrong.

Right.

A hundred percent

Right, right.

Back to what I, I just said
about it, you know, without

the human subjectivity factor.

Yeah.

And, and you're right.

If the human involved in it doesn't
have the skill or knowledge.

That's where it's gonna go off.

That's a really good point.

That's where it's gonna go off the rails.

Yeah.

If, if as a good designer, if I have
it, create an image or something

for me, and I, I'm able to look at
that and say, yeah, that's good.

I can use that.

Or, no, that's garbage.

I can't, you know, that.

And that's, you know, this is true about
any, any professional, anything in life.

Like, you know, being able to make
that decision is what separates the,

the professionals from the amateurs.

But, you know, as, as we all
know, and this isn't necessarily

meant to be a knock on anybody,
everybody has to start somewhere.

But there are a lot of amateurs
in the design industry, in the web

design, web development industry.

I mean, every industry,
there's a lot of amateurs.

And if you put a powerful tool like this
in the wrong hands, and those amateurs

don't have the experience and skill and
knowledge to look at what is created and

say that isn't good, that isn't up to a
professional standard, that won't work.

And they put it out there
anyway just because they lack

the knowledge to know better.

Um, you know, that's, that's
another black hole that we

could, or, you know, dark place.

We could go into

so many dark spots.

I, you know, I, I think the, just
devaluing it, it, like, I don't, I

don't know if it's where we're like,
I'm getting older and like, I, you

know, it's like, it's more work for me
to just stay up to date on, on things.

But like, you know, I, it feels
like it devalues your experience,

like on a personal level.

It's like, okay, like this thing in a
year and a half, it's figured out how to

do shit that took us years to, to learn.

Right, right.

And, and at a certain level
you're like, well, shit.

Like, okay, like where do we go from here?

Because you know, you can already see
the trajectory where it's like, right,

right.

Uh, yeah, I was thinking
about this the other day when

I was in school junior high.

Say I was in junior high and I
needed to learn about something for

a test or a report I had to write.

My options were basically to go
to the library and get out the

encyclopedia or hope they might have
had a book specifically about that

subject that I had to learn about.

And if they didn't, I had to go to another
library or another one until I found one

that had something that I could learn.

And now, you know, and
that took a lot of effort.

Like there was a lot of
effort involved in that.

And when you actually found what
you were looking for and you got

that report done, like you, there
was a sense of accomplishment.

You know, like you, you, you've
built something almost right, like

you didn't, but you, you really went
through a lot of hassle to, to learn

that, and you were dedicated to it.

And there's, there's a real sense of
pride and accomplishment when you do that.

And now, like literally the, the,
the entirety of human knowledge,

the entire span of humanity
is now available to anybody.

Instantly like every, you know, like is
it, if people don't have the work for it,

the knowledge is it, does it inherently
valuable anymore, or, I mean, not just

the end result, but the knowledge itself
is, you know, knowledge has always been

power, you know, history of humanity.

Knowledge is power.

Knowledge is what everything is built on.

And if, if, if knowledge is,
now, you know, this, this is

like a slippery slope, you know?

'cause on one hand, like we want all of
humanity to be empowered with knowledge.

We want everybody to be smarts, right?

We want everybody to know everything.

But at the same time, when everybody
actually does know everything, like,

well, I can argue now on social
media, everybody does know everything.

That's true.

I, that's actually, yeah,
that's a really good point.

I, again, humanity will
probably never be able to.

Fully, you know, sniff out the difference
between, you know, real and bullshit.

But I think that's a topic
for another conversation.

I mean, probably specifically if you're
trying to research something, we'll

keep it in that, you know, leveling
the playing field to that extreme

extent on the surface, obviously.

Yeah, that's great.

That puts everybody in the same, but,
but if you remove the effort, if you

remove the knowhow and the, the work
to obtain that skill or that knowledge,

or whatever it is, with programming or
designing a logo or something like that.

Yeah.

I mean, does it devalue
the, the end result?

Does it devalue the
knowledge involved in it?

Does it devalue the
person that created it?

Does it devalue humanity as a whole?

Does it.

Is that a resounding yes, it does.

Or, I don't

know.

I mean, I just short
circuited my own brain.

I don't know.

Yeah, I, I, I, I think there is like,
bringing it back down, like obviously

there's a lot of implications, right?

Because if a client can slap a, you
know, it used to be like, Hey, my

cousin has Photoshop, but now it's
like a chat g PT designed this.

Can you print it?

Right?

It's like, well, yeah, same kind of thing.

But obviously like now when it is like
design, uh, you know, to somebody outside

the industry can be touch of a button or,
you know, talking to Siri or, you know,

I think Apple's gonna add generative AI
in like the, the next version of iOS,

which I, I think is already launched.

But you know, like when design is
now like, Hey, I need a poster that

says this and this style, like.

As, as designers or we like sign people,
you know, obviously people will still need

physical signs, so until robots figure
that out, we're probably protected there.

But, you know, as a designer, like,
you know, you're aside from your

own personal stuff, like you're
not banging out signs anymore.

Like are you, are you scared?

No.

At all.

I'm not.

I'm, I'm really not because, and maybe
that's really naive of me and maybe

I should be, uh, um, but I, I'm, I'm
not, I, I, again, because I don't

think it'll ever fully replace the, the
human factor, the human taste factor.

Um, I, I think that, I, I
think in, in a way it will, I.

Help separate the good designers
from the bad designers and hopefully

make the bad designers go away.

I mean, I, I, you know, like, I,
I hope it either makes the bad

designers become good designers or
find another line of work, right?

Like, I, I just, I don't like, again,
everybody has a start somewhere,

but I don't like seeing bad design.

No, but no designer likes to see
bad design, so it, I guess it has

the potential of maybe pushing the
entire spectrum of design in a, in

a better direction by weeding out
the bad stuff in a way, I mean.

Because what it, what it creates,
I mean, a lot of the stuff it

creates isn't necessarily bad.

I mean, it's, it's definitely
workable and usable.

And if you're a, a tiny little small
mom and pop business with literally

no marketing budget, and you're trying
to just keep your doors open another

month and you need a poster, you can't
afford to hire a graphic designer.

Like, that's just not the reality
of the world that we live in.

So you need something, and if you,
options are either something that looks

like crap that you threw together in
Microsoft Paint or something that,

you know, that AI did for you, like,
yeah, like that's, that's a no brainer.

And that, and I would much rather see
that AI generated banner hanging a

window, even if a pro didn't get paid to
design it, because that, that propagates

better quality design work all around.

And,

and I think a, like, there was
a epi like the episode with Dan.

Like, I, I love the way that
like, he positioned it, it

is like, yeah, y yes there.

Designers, and, you know, they
create ama amazing brands, but they

see themselves as stewards of their
clients and not like, Hey, I'm not

here to create a, an amazing design.

I'm here to help them
achieve business results.

Right, exactly.

And,

and I, and I freaking love seeing like,
like they've totally switched over the

last year into like, Hey, these are the
results that we deliver as far as a brand.

But I, you know, I, I think
that is a hundred percent, like

for me it was, it was results.

Right,

right, right.

There will always be if AI didn't
exist right now, and it was like

Exactly, it was three years ago.

Right.

There will always be designers that
are just designing by the pound.

They're just cranking shit
out to get it out the door.

They don't, they're not
putting that thought into it.

They're, they're thinking
about, you know, just, I.

This customer has a budget of $25
for a poster design, I'm gonna

give 'em a poster design for $25.

Right?

There's always gonna be those people
and there's always going to be clients

that only want that, that can only
afford that, and they're, they're, you

know, those clients are never gonna
use the Dan Antonelli's of the world.

That's just not how it works.

No matter, no matter what,
they just never, ever will.

So it's, I think it's great that they
have an option available to them that,

like I said, does put out better work
than what you would get from the $25.

Designer.

And I know that's kind of like, in a way,
shitting on my own people, but I, I mean,

it's a, it's a merit based industry.

Like if you're not good, you
shouldn't be in the industry.

Like it's, I know that sounds
harsh, but it is what it is.

And if you're not trying to get
better at it, and you're not trying to

constantly improve, you're, this industry
will eat you alive and spit you out.

So, I don't know.

I, I see it in a way as being able
to do that, you know, you know,

and potentially move the needle in
a positive direction in some way.

I mean, I, I, I mean that's, I feel
like that's a really, like trying to

really grasp at a, a glass is half full
perspective on it, but, well, I, you

know, I, I like, like is it a, it
becoming an assistive tool, right?

Because, you know, if you go back like
a generation and, and like you see like

stuff like gold leaf and hand littering
and stuff making a comeback now, but it,

it, like, it's never gonna be what it was.

But like the, the same folks when
like CAD cut vinyl, you know, like

plotters came out was, you know, like
there was a group that's like, okay.

Hey, I'm, I'm gonna embrace this,
or, or didn't know enough to like,

Hey, you know, this is the way
this is gonna be done from now on.

Uh, did that, that took a lot of the
craft out of it in my mind, for sure.

And, and things are, you know, I won't
say slowly writing themselves because

there's still a, a design and like
signed by the pound mentality out there.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but at least like a lot of the guests
that we have, you know, very creative

projects, very, very craft oriented.

But you know, like, does it become a
tool to help in the process or like

you do, you stay away from it entirely.

And I,

I, you know, I think it'll be like when
the, the Gerber four B hit the market and

you had like four fonts to choose from
and they were all variation of Helvetica.

Um, and all of a sudden every
sign on the planet in the country

was red Hellvetica on white.

Like that's, I I think that will,
there'll definitely be a period

of time where, um, the market
will be flooded with AI generated

graphics and marketing and stuff.

Yeah, for sure.

That's inevitable.

I think that happens in any industry when
any, any new technology or tool comes out.

But I dunno, like I said, I don't
see it as an existential threat.

I really, I don't, I think Okay, if, if

I'm gonna share my screen now.

For those of you who are, who
are listening to this thing, I'm

gonna try to narrate as best as
I can to, to narrate this even

though like it's an audio podcast.

So you just have to bounce on
YouTube and watch the video version.

Alright, Mike, you see my screen?

I see your serene.

Okay.

All right.

So two things here.

I've got on the right, I
have this Claude application.

It says, good afternoon, Bryant.

I'm gonna bang something
in here in just a moment.

On the left, I have a website
called Replicate, which is a way,

um, to basically run these open
source, uh, like image generation

models and other like, AI models.

Now, essentially, this is kind of like a,

it's like a midjourney, like a
dolly about kind, it's kind of

an interface for right about

right, right?

Yeah.

Basically like it, it's
extracting all the code for me.

So now I have Mike's website up here.

I'm going to find a nice piece of work.

I, I really like the Central
Valley image, a, the Central Valley

Monument sign that you've created.

I'm gonna paste this thing into Claude,
and I'm gonna say, write a prompt

that would generate a similar sign.

Okay.

So most of these AI models now,
especially like chat, GPT and Claude,

um, they have the ability to examine
an image and see what's going on.

So this one, it is a, uh, a barn red
monument sign with, uh, a vertical

slats on it with, uh, what is that?

Just, uh, dimensional
letters attached to it?

Yeah, just some dimensional letters and
some gooseneck lamps shining down on it.

Kind of a concrete base.

Yeah.

So create a modern store sign
design for Central Valley Hardware

and Agricultural supply store.

The sign should be mounted on a raised
concrete base with decorative landscaping,

including pink flowers, blah, blah, blah.

Just to like summarize this,
would you say this is a pretty

accurate description of the sign?

I couldn't write it better myself.

Okay, so I'm gonna ask it to transform
this prompt into something that would work

with Mid Journey or something like that.

Just because, like, the other thing that
I've discovered with AI and just like my

own testing is like how you prompt these
things are a, a little more, I, I like

you have to massage it a bit, I guess.

Um, and this is not, I, I don't know
what this is gonna do specifically,

but I'm just gonna paste this into
the replicate application over here.

And I could even, like, I, I could
throw this like a, a sample image

in here as well if I wanted to.

But what I've done in the background.

Before this, and, and this is like
some testing I've done on my own.

I have trained using this software, a
custom image generation model based on

like five or 10 pictures of, of signage
that I've just grabbed from Google.

And I'm just gonna sit here and
now we're going to run this.

Do we have a, uh, I don't have
any actual text in here, so

let me add that, that piece.

Are you sweating, Mike?

No, I know what it's, I, I know
what it's gonna do more or less.

I, I mean,

I, I mean, I'm curious because this is
the first time I've like actually done it

live to see what it, what it spits out.

And I may have to like lean on like some
of the previous generations for this.

But like this thing is going through,
we've started the process, um, 93%.

And this is what we get.

We get Centar Valley.

So it's, the text is a little bit
off, but as far as like an actual

sign, I, I mean is, you know, like a
rendering, like it's, it's pretty close.

We could, we could jam this again
and see what it comes up with,

but compared to where it was like
this, this is what scares me.

Mm-hmm.

Because it abso absolutely,
like you could clearly see like

even down to like, the shadows.

The shadows, you know, like the level
of detail is like mind blowing to me.

It is.

It really is.

Um.

Freaky.

Now obviously this is, this is not,
you know, the text is goofed up on

this one, but like I, I could show
some of the, the past examples that

I've ran from this where the text was
like a hundred percent spot on and

yeah, you've sent me a few that
I'm, I was pretty impressed with.

I mean, that's pretty wild that
it's getting that good a text.

I mean, it was a matter
of time before It did.

I knew it would eventually, but it's,
it's here faster than I thought.

Yeah, I mean, and, and I, I guess
I'll share some of those with

the episode, but you know, like,
I, what do you do with this?

Like, you know, has this become
a tool for like somebody to,

I, you know, obviously like I'm
not gonna do anything with it.

'cause I like seeing you in business,
but you know, like theoretically

I could start my own like, signed
concept design service or something

with, with this sort of thing.

I.

R

Right, right.

Like it for what?

For what I do.

Right.

For, for a sign designer, what you just
created there is a great looking sign.

Like there's, there's no denying it.

It's actually a good looking sign.

Like that's a sign that a
sign company could definitely

propose and sell for sure.

But it's cool.

I mean, it created a great image of a
sign, but what are you gonna do with that?

Right?

Like, it's not a, you know, that's
where the human element comes in.

Like, you can't just generate
that and put it in front of a

customer and say, buy this from me.

And, you know, you can't
even put a number on it.

And that's where something like
chat, GPT or, or any of these AI

tools is never going to be able, at
least I don't think, again, I hope I

don't have to eat my words on this.

It's never gonna be able to come
up with that design as an actual

buildable, quotable drawing that has
dimensions and is actually designed and

you know, in a way that can be built.

I mean, this is something that,
you know, anybody who's ever had

a conversation with me about.

Sign design knows that I, I am like,
one of my biggest pet peeves is

people who design signs that look
really pretty but then can't be built.

Right.

That sucks.

That's like one of the worst things.

I mean, it's, it's awful for a
salesperson in this industry to show

a customer this beautiful design,
get them all excited about it, and

then have to go back and say, ah,

ah, yeah,

yeah.

Like, you know, turns out like, we
gotta change this to make it buildable

and now it's gonna lose the impact.

It's not, doesn't look the same.

Now it, there's so much that goes
into how that sign is built and then

designing to that, that some, a tool
like that will never be able to take

to that level now as an ideation tool.

Like what you just did
there, like, that's awesome.

Like, I could take that the creative
work is done, now all I gotta do is

turn that into a set of drawings.

Right, right.

That just made me more efficient.

It didn't necessarily steal my job.

It made my job easier
and more efficient and.

You know, if that, if that design
brief was in front of me for that

particular type of sign for that
client, more than likely I would've

never come up with that design.

What it did.

I wouldn't have gone in that direction,
but it gave me an idea or a direction that

is different than what I would've done.

And it's, and it's a good idea.

It's a great design.

And that allows me to, you
know, maybe I can run with that.

Maybe I can do another
variation of that over here.

And it, you know, just like you said,
like it's, it's great to have this, um,

you know, almost like a, a a, a coder
sitting right next to you all the time.

You can bounce ideas off of as a designer,
like it, it works that way as well.

It'll never be able to generate a,
you know, a perfect fully functional

website or app with, you know, the,
the way that a human could, but

can definitely help you get there.

Um, and, and I, I feel like that's,
I feel like that's to one degree or

another where it'll always be for a.

For professional designers.

Right.

Something like that.

Now, if you're talking about
like a, a printed poster or a

banner, that's a different story.

It's literally just ink
on a flat substrate.

There, there's not, there's nothing.

Yeah.

It's, it's, yeah.

Designers that are doing that kind of
design work, I feel like should be more

concerned about their job than, um,

if you are a straight print
designer, if you weren't

already cooked, you are cooked.

That's basically what Mike is saying.

Well, I mean, I mean, well, let's
be, let's be honest here though.

I mean, like apps like Canva though
that have been around for quite a

while, that, you know, they, they,
they're already taking those jobs.

That app is already taking that job.

'cause now anybody with no design
experience can open up Canva and, you

know, frankly put together a pretty
nice poster design or banner design.

I mean, the Canva templates aren't bad.

It's an easy program to learn and it
kind of forces you to do a decent job.

So, I don't know, AI is
just another Canva maybe.

Yeah, I mean, I mean something like
this, obviously, like you mentioned, like

this is one of the past ones that I did,
where you give it a reference photo and

ask it to create a channel letter sign.

Um, and it, you know, as far as
like a concept, it, it's not bad.

It's not great.

Um, but it's phenomenal rendering

though.

I mean, they look beautiful.

Yeah,

yeah.

Yeah.

And it, like upon first inspection,
like unless you like zoomed into the

text on this door, like you would
never, you'd never really know.

I, I guess it's not spicy,
but like I don't, I don't

see this, it's a tool to use.

Right.

That's a different one.

That is a, that's a flyer that
I was working with outdoors.

But yeah.

Know, that's a great example of one
though, that flyer, because you would've

never found that, that Iron Maiden, you
know, Google in the background, if there's

no way you could come up with that, I mean

Right.

Thousands

of dollars to hire artists to do that

ex Exactly.

Exactly.

NCA likes, again, by no means, I'm
not saying this is like an elegant

process or like it even gets it right.

I, I would say like the hit rate in, in my
own testing now for something is probably

like 15, 20%, like one out of five.

It, it comes up with
something that's usable.

But again, that's

better than a, a human designer
though, to be honest with you.

Oh, agreed.

You know, it's, it's a tool for
creativity, I guess, because, you know,

again, this is, to me, this only like
seeks to like enhance your own creativity

because now, instead of like racking
your brain or, you know, going for a

walk and waiting for inspiration to
strike, you can get, you can rapidly

iterate on something and obviously
right, the end result is gonna be better.

But,

and, and that's, it's been great for me
for that, for that purpose there, um,

alone, you know, another, um, area of
AI that we haven't really talked about

a whole lot are, you know, some of the
AI tools that are being built into.

Apps now, like Photoshop and
Illustrator, um, now have, you know,

generative AI built right into them.

Photoshop in particular has
been fantastic, you know, some

of the tools it has in there.

Um, you know, with, with the work that
I do, I do a lot of photo renderings

where I take an, an image photograph
of, you know, the, the building,

the sign is gonna be going on, or
the, you know, the, the landscape or

the site where the sign's gonna go.

And then I've gotta
superimpose the sign in there.

And, you know, anybody in the
sign industry knows that survey

photos are usually garbage when
you get 'em back from, you know,

whoever you sent out to take.

I mean, they're, they're terrible photos.

Yeah, they're awful.

And they definitely, you know, I, you've
heard me preach about this a million

times, uh, the sales presentation,
what you put in front of your customer.

We'll make or break that sale for you.

You know, not just the design of
the sign in there, but the way

you present it to the customer.

If your drawing looks like shit, if
it looks like a kindergartner put

that drawing presentation together
and that customer's getting other

bids from somebody else and you
know, their drawings look better,

they're gonna go with that customer.

So using some of these tools like
AI allows me to really efficiently,

quickly take these crappy photographs
that I get and clean 'em up and turn

'em into presentation ready, you know,
almost beautiful images that people

are like, wow, that looks amazing.

Like, they really put some effort and
some thought into this presentation.

They really want me to
see what this, the porta

potty out of it,

right?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And I do that kind of
stuff all the time, right?

Like, I'll get pictures of like where a
sign's gonna go, like where a monument

sign's gonna go and, and like their,
their truck is in the way, like the sign's

gonna go here behind the truck, but here's
a picture of my F-150, like, and I've

had to use it to, you know, select that
truck and say, remove truck and it will.

At first it wasn't that great, but
now, I mean, I can take an image

that needs, would've needed hours of
work that I can have it, you know,

looking like a professional photo
photographer took it in 10 minutes.

And that has, my clients have seen
a huge impact in business with

that alone, because they're closing
more sales now because of that.

And, and it's not costing them more
money for me to go to that level where,

you know, it's not like I'm taking
money off outta my own pocket by doing

this, because my clients wouldn't
have paid me to go to that level if

I had to spend, you know, three hours
Photoshopping a, you know, one image

to make it look nice in a presentation
that's not really justifiable.

Right.

Yeah, yeah.

It's, it's not a sole job yet.

I mean, they're paying me to do
this design on the hope that the

customer's gonna buy that sign, so
they're not gonna pay an extra three

hours for me to, you know, Photoshop
the hell out of this picture.

But if I can do it in 10 or 15
minutes, that adds more value

to the work I did, and I could
charge a little bit more for it.

And they're, they're happy to pay that.

And that drawing looks amazing
compared to what it would've

looked like if I hadn't done that.

And then it helps 'em sell the sign.

So they're, they, they eat it up.

So it's, you know, it, it, it ripples out
and affects a lot of things indirectly.

And, and I think, you know, looking at
it through the lens of efficiency and

just helping you do your job, you know,
better, that better serves your client

in the end is, I, I, I think the lens
that people need to look through to

avoid being, you know, so terrified of
it, that they just completely avoid it.

Because that will, you can't avoid this.

If you do that, you're gonna be
left in the dust, unfortunately.

Yeah.

Well, I, I watched like a video and like,
we could start to bring this home, 'cause

I'm gonna have to go pick up my kids soon.

Right.

But like, I watched a video of like
a, it was like an 8-year-old kid, or

maybe it was like a 6-year-old kid
and she was like prompting, she was

using one of the LLM like code editors.

And like she built her own
little app, whatever she wanted.

It took her like 30 minutes.

Yeah.

But like, I was just fascinated with it
because like that's, you know, that job

is obviously like, cooked in a few years.

Like it building X, y, Z app.

Um,

yeah.

But how cool is that though?

How, how that's Yeah.

Freaking amazing Is that a 6-year-old
is like, I have a need for this.

Like,

oh, well, yeah.

It is just being able to, to now get the,
as a creator, it's as mind blowing, right?

Because right, right now I have
a tool, like I don't even have to

spend years learning programming.

I could just jump in and like start
hacking together something, which is

mm-hmm.

Which is why I, I think that's
the best way to learn anyway.

But, um, yeah, it's just mind blowing.

Um, but I, I think that begs
the question though, like,

like, are, are, are we humans?

Are we putting the emphasis, the value
emphasis on the wrong part, right?

Like for that 6-year-old that
made an app to solve a problem

that she identified in her life.

And you said that job is cooked, right?

Like making those apps in the
future, is it, or does it just

create different opportunities
that people need to adapt to?

Like, is, is that girl like, did, did
that experience making that app, did

that eliminate a job in the future?

Or did that solidify in her mind that this
is, this is really cool and I could, I'm

gonna, I'm gonna do this for a living, you
know, and, and, and it planted that seed

in her brain that you can create things
from scratch and solve problems and Right.

And, and the end result is what matters.

Not the tools you use to get there.

Not, not the endless lines of code that
you wrote, as impressive as that all

is, nobody gives a shit about that.

They care about whether it works and
whether it makes their life easier.

They care about whether the
design brings them more business.

They don't care how you made it.

And I feel like there's a, there's
a, you know, maybe we need to get

out of our, our own way and, and, and
remove some of our ego from, uh, the

process of creation and creativity and.

And except that all that really
matters is the final result.

Maybe, I don't know.

That's There's your spicy take,

spicy, all that matters is the result.

I mean, I agree.

Like, you know, I I, we didn't get a
chance to, like, I, I, I think this is

like a series, honestly, because like,
like you said, it's not going away.

Uh, and I, I wanna figure out how
to pull you back into the podcast

for at least some of these episodes.

So I, but the, I, we didn't get a chance
to talk about like, the other ways to

use this, but like, you know, there's
so many different applications and Yeah,

I, I think, hey, like the things that
I've learned, like working in the tech

space over the, the last year and a
half, you definitely wanna talk about it.

Um, but yeah, I, I don't
know where I'm going here.

Well, let's do a part two then.

I mean, part two,

he's committed.

We're doing a part two.

Yeah.

Love it.

Get Peter back on here and he can.

Talk about how AI is helping
fast signs franchisees,

sorry.

Couldn't help it.

I had to get my jab in on fast signs.

I just

fast signs.

Okay.

Getting the, the cease and desist
letters from the franchisees.

Now, I, I mean, personally, like I, I'm
using it to do the shit that I really

don't want to do, like, you know,
like, write a description for this

podcast, probably like I'm gonna, yeah.

There's an AI that I'm going to use
to, well, actually the, the, the

platform that we're using Riverside
will spit out a transcript for me.

Now I'm gonna throw that into
Claude and I'm gonna say.

Write summary for this based on, uh,
is like this format that we've used

in the past, and it's gonna take 30
seconds and I'm gonna be done with it

and I can move on to the next thing.

So yeah, lots of things like that.

We'll, we'll revisit.

Um, well we got the, the existential,
you know, dread part of the conversation

outta the way today at least.

So we can actually get down to the,
you know, the bare, the bare bones.

Okay.

All right.

We'll, do we wanna save the,
let's save the Terminator shit

for the end of the next one, then

we'll be back.

I takeaways.

I don't, do we have any takeaways?

Don't be scared.

Yeah, I was gonna say like, I think

that's the only one.

Like if you're not, what
you don't understand,

you, if you're in the sign industry,
and even if you're a designer, you don't

have to run out and start a plumbing
business or get a plumbing job just yet.

Um, you know, we got some runway.

But back to my spicy take, this thing
is, is getting better at a crazy rate.

So yeah, these predictions
may not age well,

but, but I think like it's safe to
say, don't, don't sit on this and

don't just write it out and think it's
gonna go away because it's, the chances

of that happening are slim to none.

I think at this point, we
all have to embrace it or be,

well as soon as Apple releases

the update where like the AI is
ubiquitous into the iPhone, where mm-hmm.

You know, like it, it will write a text
message to my wife explaining why I

spent too long on the podcast for me.

Like, we will, it, it's not
going away at that point.

Yeah.

No.

Mm-hmm.

I, I'm addicted to,
I'm not addicted to it.

I'm, I'm just, I can't imagine
going through a day without

using it at this point.

It's just, it's become as
commonplace in my life as Google.

And, and I think it will continue to
do that for everybody as time goes on.

So to be continued, part
two coming soon to be

continued.

If you are interested in joining the
podcast as a guest, make sure you

hit us up at [email protected].

Uh, we'd love to have you on,
uh, if you're a sign shop owner,

you've got an interesting story.

We'd love to tell interesting stories,
uh, aside from just rambling on.

So definitely do that.

We love to do that too.

And make sure that you hop onto the
Facebook community, uh, that is just the

Better Sign Shop community on Facebook.

Exclusive community for side shop owners.

That's it.

We'll catch you on the next episode.

If you liked this episode, make
sure you hit subscribe to get all

the latest episodes and check out
our website, better sign shop.com.

Get free resources and helpful
tools on growing your shop.

Thanks for listening.