Better Sign Shop Podcast

Michael Riley: Learn how to build
a better sign and print shop from a

few crusty sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

workflow, growth, and more.

Your listening to The Better Sign Shop
podcast With your hosts, Peter COIs,

Michael Reilly and Bryant Gillespie.

Bryant Gillespie: Before we jump into
the episode, I'd like to give a shout

out to our sponsor, GCI Digital Imaging
Grand Format Printer to the Trade.

We talk a lot about outsourcing on
the podcast and the importance of.

Good partners and gci Digital Imaging
is a good partner to have owner TJ

Bak and his team focus on providing
killer customer service just the

way grandmother used to make it.

If you're interested in learning
their approach to business, hop

back into the archives to episode
nine where the guys and I interview

TJ about customer experience.

So if you're looking for a high quality
trade printer for banners, wraps,

and other printed graphics that your
customers throw at you, check out

GCI Digital [email protected].

All right, guys.

Welcome to the next edition of
the Better Sign Shop podcast.

As always, I've got my colleagues,
Peter, he's not here today.

We've got the man himself,
the Sign Design Samurai.

The Sign, chimi Changa, Mike Riley.

Happy New Year.

I feel like we've got the
new year, new nickname thing

kind of on the horizon here.

Michael Riley: See, I was hoping
we'd leave the nickname in

2022, but I see it's, was there

Bryant Gillespie: at the end of
the new year, were there, was there

one that you really liked that we
could stick with or there was not?

I feel like this, I feel
like the search continues.

Like the search continues.

I saw somebody post on our YouTube
channel the other day, like on

the very first or second episode.

They were like, oh, hey, I
really like sign Shop Spock.

And I don't know if we need
to revisit that one or not.

Yeah.

Maybe when we get some more guests we
can, I, I think we need to write that

into the, the guide for our guests.

Like come prepared with five
nickname ideas for Mike.

I think

Michael Riley: that's a great idea.

Yeah.

I think that needs to be like a,
a regular segment on the podcast.

It's like a rapid fire.

Give Mike a nickname.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Like, I'm
open to getting roasted as well.

I know that came up a couple
calls ago if I, if you wanna take

some heat off yourself there.

Michael Riley: Ah, ah, yeah,
you do need a nickname too.

I, I think you've kind
of dodged that bullet.

I'm not sure how that happened.

I guess being the host, you can steer the
conversation wherever you want, can't you?

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, yeah.

When it's, when it's your name
on the dotted line, I guess

you just kind of skate that.

Michael Riley: I don't know.

Yeah.

Congratulations.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

So what's new with you
in the new year, my man?

Michael Riley: Oh, you know,
just trying to survive.

Had a great holiday and, uh, a nice,
uh, nice new year and, um, made a

bunch of New Year's resolutions.

I've already broken, like
everybody has, I'm sure.

Or what do we, two weeks into the new year
here and, uh, not one is still standing

on, on two legs, so, um, do you care
to share one, like what was Yeah, yeah.

No, totally.

Yeah.

I, I was definitely gonna
eat healthier this year.

That was the plan, but I
had What happened there?

Pizza from Taco Bell
last night at 1:00 AM.

We're like the fifth time this year.

So we're only

Bryant Gillespie: 12 days into the year.

I, I mean, if we were gonna stick with
one nickname, like the Burrito Chi Chung,

like the sign shop, Mexican Food King.

I don't, you know, I
don't know how you can buy

Michael Riley: Mike's two
Loves of Taco Bell and Signage.

Bryant Gillespie: Signage.

I don't, I don't know.

Yeah.

Maybe there's like a sign
coordinator position that

you like Taco Bell Corporate.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

I don't know.

There you go.

God, that'd be my dream job.

Designing Taco Bell signs.

Holy shit.

There you go.

I mean, my head would explode.

Uh, yes.

Taco

Bryant Gillespie: Bell, when
you do the next store rebrand,

call this guy hit me up.

He, he does sign design for a living.

Yeah.

Michael Riley: So what
were the other ones?

And I'll work for burritos.

Um, gosh, let's see.

Well, I was, I, I wanted
to get in better shape.

I, I said I was gonna start going for
a walk every day after dinner, but

when you eat a Mexican pizza at 1:00 AM
it's hard to go for a walk after that.

So that resolution has just kind of
like, also fallen by the wayside.

Those are the major ones, but I think
those are probably everybody's, and

everybody can relate to that a little bit.

I've got a few business related ones,
you know, trying to put a little more

focus and effort into, you know, some
marketing this year and social media

need to bring on an assistant to
help me with some, some office tasks.

So those are some, some resolutions.

I haven't even had a chance yet to like
completely screw up and fall off the

horse on, but one of these days I will.

Bryant Gillespie: So it's, it's
interesting, like you, you serve sign

shops with your design work, but on
the market, you know, like we've talked

about the importance of marketing
yet, You basically do no marketing

for your signed design business,

Michael Riley: It's true.

I am, I, I'm definitely a, um, not, not
a practitioner of what I preach, I guess.

Um, yeah, I do a little bit of marketing
and, and I did put a little bit of

effort into SEO in my website early
last year, which definitely paid off.

I mean, I get, I, I, I'm in
such a weird niche market.

I mean, I, I, there's not a large pool of
potential clients out there for me anyway.

There's only a handful of people
that will, you know, really need

my services around the country.

So it's not like I'm getting, you know,
50 inquiries a day off of my website.

But I do get a decent amount of
business off of it from that.

And, and, you know, I ranked
generally number one or fairly high

up in Google results when you search
for terms surrounding what I do.

So that, I guess that counts as marketing.

Right.

And, you know, I occasionally throw
a post up on my Facebook page for the

business, but I think the last one I
did was like in August or something.

So , I need to.

You know, we, we've been so busy
that it's, yeah, it's so, and I, I

think that's probably something that
every small business owner, you know,

it's a trap that we all fall into.

Like, he gets so busy.

We've talked about this on the
marketing podcast episode we did.

Like, it's just so easy to put
that marketing stuff on the back

orderer, because I'm busy right now.

I don't really need any more clients,
therefore, I'm not really gonna

dedicate any brain power to it.

And that's, that's where my
New Year's resolution comes in.

Because obviously, you know, if you
only market when you're slow and

you need the work, then you're kind
of shooting yourself on the foot.

And, and you know, I guess
I've turned off the faucet.

I think that was the, the term that
Peter used on episode is don't, you

know, don't turn off the faucet.

Don't turn off the faucet.

Yeah.

So that's one of the big things this year.

Bryant Gillespie: I'm sure all of
our listeners can relate to that.

Like, I think every, almost every shop
owner that we've ever talked to, like

marketing, you say marketing and they.

Like, oh, are we doing marketing?

Like, yeah.

Yeah.

Beyond the basics of having like a
decent website, I feel like there's

a lot of shops out there that
aren't doing any marketing at all.

So if that's on your resolution list
for your business, don't let that slip.

What we would both suggest, I, I'm gonna
speak for both of us here, is you're

probably not gonna have the time to do it.

Find somebody who can do it for you,
outsource it, whether that's an agency

or just an individual freelancer.

Now is a good time to start that
and start as small as you need to.

Uh, that's the other big thing.

You don't have to jump into
like a $5,000 retainer to have

somebody do your marketing monthly.

Just start with one small piece,
you know, maybe a couple hundred

Michael Riley: bucks.

Yeah.

Right.

Or hire somebody to do your
social media for you or something.

You know, I, I mentioned this in the
the marketing podcast episode, but

at my shop, when I actually still
own the sign company and not just.

Designer, same boat.

Like, like it was so hard to
ever do any marketing in-house.

And, and it, it's hard I think
for sign shop owners to accept

and admit to themselves that
we're not actually marketers.

We're, you know, making signs is
not the same thing as marketing.

So it's, it's kind of one of those
things where we feel compelled to

try and do in-house ourselves because
we think we should be able to do it.

But the reality is, it's, it's
probably not our strong suit.

And hiring a professional to
do that is, is usually gonna

pay pay off in the long run.

We hired an outside marketing agency to
handle a lot of our marketing efforts and,

and man, was that ever a great investment?

I mean, it, it really, really paid
off big time, uh, for doing that.

So I, I always recommend everybody,
just don't even try to do it in-house.

Get it off of your plate.

Hire somebody you trust and you
know that you can afford and, and

empower them to, you know, kind of
take your brand and run with it.

Oh, it'll come back to you for sure.

I say that as I don't,
don't do that myself anymore.

Bryant Gillespie: Well, You're gonna fix

Michael Riley: that, right?

Totally.

So what about you?

Bryant Gillespie: How, how are
you starting out the year there's

a wedding for that one man?

All right.

So I, I'm gonna date myself a little
bit, but six or eight, 10 years ago,

uh, before my wife and I got together,
I was really heavy into power lifting.

Uh, I have since in the last
two weeks, thanks to some

encouragement from my brother-in-law
tried to get back into this.

So it's been an interesting
adventure to say the least.

, like before I quit, I was, uh, I,
I don't know the exact numbers and

I, I'll just throw some out there.

I don't, I'm sure there's people
that , if, if you do lift in the

audience, don't take me at face
value here, because my memory from

7, 8, 10 years ago is very fuzzy.

But you know, I think if my records
like personal records at the time were

like three, maybe like 3 85 on the
squat and like 4 35 on the deadlift.

So not super heavy.

Nothing to be ashamed about though.

But I started back, I'm like two
weeks in at this point and my

head still is back in that place.

But as, as you've experienced
like 10 years on your body

is not with you anymore.

So I, uh, like I've been extremely
sore, but also just like extremely

frustrated mentally with just where
I'm at because there's kids that weigh,

I, I don't know, probably 50 pounds
less than me that are throwing up like

50, a hundred pounds more than me when
I look across the gym at this point.

Michael Riley: And that's
how Beret got hurt.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, the, the
next episode I will be wearing like

a sling or a cast or something.

, a

Michael Riley: back brace or something.

Yeah, no, that's welcome to, I
guess we'll call it middle age.

I'm not gonna call you an old man yet
cause you haven't crossed the 40 threshold

like me, but yeah, , it sucks, doesn't it?

Yeah, it's hard.

I used to, I, I mean I
know exactly how that is.

I, I used to exercise and lift and uh,
I was, I was big into CrossFit for,

for years cuz I, I got really going
ho when I was right around 30 and

decided I'm gonna join a rugby team.

A rugby league.

And, um, I got in pretty good shape.

I was, I was in pretty good shape.

I, I wasn't quite throwing up the
numbers that you were, I wasn't really

quite just heavy power lifting as
much as more like, you know, training.

But then I actually like went to
a rugby game and was so scared.

Bryant Gillespie: Like what?

Yeah, that's uh, that's definitely
one of those before kids things.

. Yeah,

Michael Riley: like, like 10
minutes into the game, like

several people had lost teeth in
their, you know, blood everywhere.

, like it was, I, I was shocked
at how like, like I knew Violet.

It was a, it was a violent,
rough sport, but Wow.

Yeah.

So that's kind of when I'm like,
okay, maybe this isn't for me.

And I slowed down on the, the exercising
and working out a little bit and yeah.

And then actually just over between
Christmas and New Year's, then I decided

to carry a toilet up my stairs to my
upstairs bathroom cuz I'm putting in

a toilet in and it, I, I had to, I
had to stop for the rest of the day.

Like, I, I just lifting that toilet
and carrying upstairs nearly killed me.

And I was like, I was done.

That was it.

So yeah, getting old and lifting
heavy things, they don't really go

hand in hand and it sneaks up on you.

So don't, don't overdo it.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a the yourself biggest thing.

Uh, just like we, we talked about just
like on marketing just a minute ago,

you gotta start small , start slow

So, hey, I, I'm trying to,
uh, be mindful of that.

Definitely.

My wife is helpful as well.

Uh, she's very good at nagging
me into going to the gym, so

that's, that's been helpful.

Yeah, I've got like a, my brother-in-law
hooked me up with this four day a

week program for the next six weeks.

I'll just give a shout out to those guys.

He's, uh, if you're into, if you like
heavy metal and you like lifting weights,

look at, uh, def comes lifting.com.

It's, um, kind of their brand.

He's one of the signature athletes or
sponsored athletes, I guess you could say.

You know, he just did a meet
back in December where he set

like some state records as an am.

Against non amputees.

That's pretty cool.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Pulling
this up right now.

Yeah, definitely.

Pretty.

Yeah, I think they're, the
tagline is Fitness for the

Misfits or something like that.

I think so.

uh, cool company.

Cool dude.

Yeah.

That's pretty cool.

Frank, his, uh, his name on there is
Franken, Jan . It's, it, clearly they've

got some good nicknames going on.

Maybe we could take a page

Michael Riley: out of their, Yeah, we
need to study their, their approach there.

Well, that's awesome.

Good luck.

I hope that you, a, don't hurt yourself
and b, you know, get back into the groove

and, and, uh, see some gains there.

I remember, like I've, I've,
my whole life, I've started

and stopped going to the gym.

I've, you know, I've been
a perpetual gym starter.

My, you know, my entire adult life.

And man, like the first two weeks
after you're back to the gym and

you're especially like the day or
two after like a heavy squat day,

standing up off the toilet in the
morning, , it's like the worst.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

Yeah.

So I like, I I, I'll say one more thing
and then we'll get into like the actual

topic today, but the, like before,
probably like four or six weeks ago before

I started getting into this, I went to the
gym with my brother-in-law and, uh, you

know, we've always been very competitive
with each other in the past, but, but

like the friendly, competitive spirit.

Um, so I got in the gym, you
know, I'm watching him lift and

I was like, okay, like, hey, I'm
gonna, I'm gonna squat with you.

And I did the best I could, and it,
like, it definitely overdid and I,

like, I could not walk for like three
freaking, like, could not get up

and down the stairs like physically.

Mm-hmm.

. And like, I was texting him and he was
just laughing at me the whole time, man.

Like, uh, like, Hey, thanks for coming.

Thanks for playing

.
Michael Riley: Yeah.

No, it's that, that's the worst it go.

It's weird.

It goes away pretty quickly.

But like the first one
too is just, it's brutal.

Oh man.

It's bad.

I don't envy you.

Well, good luck.

So I gotta, gotta shake

Bryant Gillespie: off the, the
cobwebs, but, uh, so that leads us

into the, the topic of today, I think
I was working title for this one was

like tech, tech that saves you time.

But, um, one of the topics, um,
that I've seen come up in again

and again this time of year over
the last 7, 10, 15 years that.

I've been in this industry
is systems processes.

I think I wanna touch a little on shop
management software today because we've

got the shop management software series
that should be coming out pretty soon.

I don't know how you
feel about that, Mike.

Uh,

Michael Riley: let's do it . That's
a, that's a subject that's

near and dear to my heart.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Give us, give us
your, what's your shop management

software origin story like where did
you guys start out with your old shop?

Yeah.

And this is, this is like
zooming back into the past here,

Michael Riley: but this is, this
is flying way back into the past.

Um, Yeah.

Yeah.

So for, you know, like every sign
shop, you know, when you're smaller and

you're starting out, everything's paper,
everything's in your head, and you don't

really have any good systems or processes.

But as we grew, obviously, like
everybody does, they figure out that

they need figured out we needed something
better than paper work orders, you

know, dry erase marker board, right?

Systems like that, that are, that
are that manual, it's, it's a

recipe for losing track of things.

Things are gonna fall through the cracks.

I mean, it's just, and it's
not really anybody's fault.

You can't blame anyone
particularly human on that.

It's just, it's just the
nature of the business.

When you're busy and you're chasing
paper, you're gonna lose stuff.

So we, you know, looked at everything
under the sun and, and, and around that

time was right when, when Sein Box first
came, became available on the market and,

um, demoed it with our buddy Kevin, and.

I thought it was amazing.

I mean, it was like a
game changer for, for us.

Se Box was originally made for the Sign
Ramma franchise, and then eventually they,

you know, they made some tweak to it and
released it wide to, to any sign shop.

And, uh, I was, I was like number,
customer number, like two or three

on Seine Box when it came out.

I mean, was long time ago and
it was, it was, it was something

for sure when it came out.

I mean it's, it's, it's

Bryant Gillespie: evolved
quite a bit when it was Kevin.

Kevin basically shyed both
of us then at that point.

I know, cause I was, I was like
customer number four or five on Shop Box

Michael Riley: Yeah.

And I, I found Kevin on a post on
Signs 1 0 1 about it actually to,

I don't know if that's how you
discovered him or not, but Yeah.

Yeah.

A hundred percent it was, yeah, we
can, it all goes back to Signs 1 0 1.

Yeah, so we, you know, we were with
Sein Box for a long time and it was, it

was definitely, um, an amazing program.

When I, when I sold the business,
we were still using SE Box, shop

Box said actually Shop Box wasn't.

A thing yet it, it, it was still sign box.

They hadn't evolved it
over in the shop box yet.

So that's what we used.

And uh, it was, it was great.

I mean, it, any, any program like that,
I mean, it doesn't matter what it is,

you know, all all of these programs
have strengthened weaknesses, but

having something moving into any sort
of system like that is better than not.

You know, it's, it's something
that I recommend every shop to,

even if you're a one man operation,
like get something cuz it's gonna

change your life for the better.

It just, it's a guarantee.

Bryant Gillespie: I, I
totally agree with you.

I think if Peter were here, he would
say the same thing, that in this day

and age, um, especially with the,
like the current economic climate,

you know, where everybody's kind of
uncertain what's, what's going to happen.

It could certainly seem like a big
expense of, uh, a big investment.

We'll say.

I won't say an expense because it's
definitely in the investment column.

And, and some of them are
fairly cheap that are out there.

You could go with a non-industry
specific software that will be even

cheaper and you try to tie stuff
together, but most of the investment

is on the time side of things there.

But it is 100% probably one
of the smartest investments

you'll make in your business.

Mm-hmm.

.
Michael Riley: And that's, that's
like, that's a really important

topic or, or point I think that needs
to be beaten like a dead horse a

little bit, is it is an investment.

It's not an expense.

And, you know, you and I have been
through, I'll say the ringer with,

with these programs and we've
talked to a lot of people who.

Their mentality about it is an expense,
you know, that's why they see it.

They see it as a, it's gonna cost them
money and they drag their feet and

they, you know, oh, you know, 3 99
a month or $500 a month or whatever,

whatever the cost for whatever app
you're looking at is, they just,

you know, they immediately shut down
when they hear a price like that.

Even a small one man shop, I mean,
it's, there's no denying that $500 a

month for, for a one man operation.

It's not inexpensive.

Right.

It's, but it only takes one lost order
that you've gotta eat per month to

more than cover that The efficiency
that these, these programs create for

your shop is definitely, it's, it's
next level, and, and that's, that's

where you, you make that money up,
that's where it becomes an investment.

I mean, you're, you're, you're going on,
you're gonna make that money back multiple

times over every month and just the amount
of time that you save, not tearing the off

spart trying to find a work order that's
slipped between two desks or something.

You know?

I mean, it's, it's absolutely
an investment in, in time and

efficiency that, that will pay back.

You know, many times over I, and I
and I, I always cringe when everybody,

anybody, you know, drags their
feet on it based on price alone.

And, and they say, ah, that's just too
much money for me to spend every month.

You gotta spend money to make money, guys.

Bryant Gillespie: We
heard that argument a lot.

Yeah.

Like, uh, I always, I do, like I heard
you say, spend money to make money.

I hate that saying, but in
this case, it's, it's true.

Michael Riley: It's definitely true.

In this case, I, yeah, I, I agree.

I, I don't like it , but like,
sometimes it needs to be said though.

And this is one of those cases where I,
it's, it's money well spent for sure.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

So the next thing that I want to say is,
if you're in this mode right now, you're

looking for shop management software, like
the, the biggest thing that I could tell

you is you're not going to find a perfect.

So, uh, at this point in my career,
I, I can't tell you how many thousands

of hours I've invested into this
specific category of software, both

in the shop previously, you know, I've
spent thousands and thousands of hours

like scouring the internet before.

These things were a little
more visible than they are now.

Uh, doing demos with sales reps on
everything from web to print, to

mis, you know, it was all, it was
like the wild, wild west kind of

10 years ago of like anybody was
calling themselves anything and you

had to no screenshots on the website.

You had to sit through demos and
endure hour long conversations

with sales reps before you can
even get a look at the product.

So it's exactly

Michael Riley: the same as it is

Bryant Gillespie: in in some aspects.

Yeah, I've, I've always hated that part
of no screenshots, but there to emphasize

there is no one perfect solution and to,
to get, to invest too much time in this

is not going to pay you back in returns.

So yeah, , do your due diligence,
definitely, uh, look at your

available options out there.

You know, we're gonna cover those in
our shop management series, but, you

know, once you get to pick one that's
good enough and get going with it,

and don't delay trying to wait for
the perfect system or, or it having

the perfect functionality, you know,
figure out what it is your, your core

set of things that you need for your
shop are, and a lot of those should

be shared across most of the audience.

Uh, but figure out what those are,
which solution best fits that and.

Go for it.

Pull the trigger.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

Uh, that's a, that's
another really good point.

I mean, that's, it's something that , I
think you and I have battled quite,

quite extensively in a former life.

Is, is the argument, oh, well this
isn't exactly the way we do things.

Uh, this isn't ex this isn't
quite how I, I would do it.

I mean, I've seen people cancel
shop box because they don't like

the format of the invoices, right?

Like, everything else is great
and it's making a huge improvement

in their, their business.

But, eh, this doesn't look
the way I want it to look.

Therefore, this isn't a good product.

And we're talking about off the
shelf canned programs that aren't

custom built to your business.

And, and, and there are no two sign shops.

I can say this with a hundred percent
absolute certainty because I've been

in hundreds of sign shops and worked
with hundreds more owners in my life.

There are no two sign shops on the planet
that do things exactly the same way.

There's a lot of similar
overlap and everybody's kind of

working towards the same goal.

But from a process standpoint, from an
operation standpoint, every sign shop's

gonna operate a little bit differently.

And when you're looking at off-the-shelf
software that wasn't customized

to your shop, you're going to have
to make some concessions to it.

You're going to have to bend the way
you operate a little bit to make a

drop and fit into that, that program.

If you don't, you're gonna have a
hell of the time getting to work

and, and, you know, implemented,
your employees are gonna hate it.

I mean, it, it requires flexibility and
it requires you being just a little bit

on the realistic side and, and accepting
that you may have to adjust, you know,

your procedures a little bit to, you
know, to fall more in line with the way

whatever program you're looking at works.

And if you do that, if you're willing
to do that, you'll, you'll have a much

easier time implementing it and, and
it'll definitely work better for you

than if you try to bend it to your will,
which doesn't really work that well.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, I, I think the
best way to look at it is like a marriage.

Right.

Oh, totally.

Yeah.

Like you, you're shopping around, like
you're going through this process,

like the courtship, and then you
decide, hey, here's our shopping.

Shopping around.

Just shopping around.

Yeah.

Michael Riley: You put the
address where people can send

hate mail at the end of the year.

,
Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna have to make
sure Ashley doesn't listen to this one.

Um, yeah.

But you basically, like, you make that
commitment and like you can either

fight your wife on everything in your
marriage, , uh, or you know, go with

the flow and definitely compromise.

Compromise.

That's it.

Secret to successful use of shop
management and marriages everywhere.

It's

Michael Riley: a secret to life.

So

Bryant Gillespie: I, I think, you
know what, let's take a step back

and let's just kind of like, what are
the options for a shop out there of

hey, And we're, we're dead focused
on improving systems and processes.

We've identified that we need a
system in place to help us operate

and, and keep things on track.

What are the, are the options
for our shop operating system?

Maybe that's what I
would retitle this one.

You know, your shop operating system.

Yeah, there you go.

Michael Riley: Yeah, so I like
that we've that name actually.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

Yeah.

I, I like that too.

So we've got off the shelf
industry specific software, right?

We've got two, which would be stuff like
Trello or uh, monday.com, Asana, Basecamp.

How many of these would we
run into over the years?

Thousands, you know, kind of your project
management software, c r M software,

and you try to bolt all these things
together, or you've got door number

three, the really fun and expensive
door building your own solution.

Have I got all the bases covered there?

Michael Riley: I think you've
got all the bases covered.

Yeah.

I mean, that's, that's pretty
much, yeah, that's pretty much it.

Yeah.

Where you want, usually
I, where you start.

Well, I mean, if you're, if you're
moving to, if you're, if you're thinking

about this topic in general and you
think, okay, I, I need something, I,

I would say chances are pretty good.

You're probably already using,
or at least have tried, like some

of the generic off the shelf, you
know, like you said, like Trello or

monday.com or one of one of those.

I mean, I, I, I know a
lot of shops have at.

Trialed those, those apps
to see if they would work.

And you know, they've, you know, they've
heard other, other shops are using

Trello, so let's check it out and see.

I'd say we start there cuz those
are the easiest ones to, to pick on

.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and I, I'll be the fun fact guy,
like I even built, I think I put together

like a sample Trello board once upon a
time that people can download and copy.

I'm, I'm not sure if that's still
on the site somewhere, but somebody

will Google it and find it.

But yeah, that's, that's where a lot of
start shops start out down this journey

with Trello or, or something else.

What are your, I know you're a, you're
a huge Trello fan, so like, what's

your take on this for like a sign shop?

Michael Riley: Yeah.

I, I love Trello.

Well, I love Trello on one hand, right?

Like it's, it's very limiting
in some areas, but what it

does, it does really well.

I mean, if you've never seen Trello,
it's just kind of a, a drag and

drop card based system, and you can,
it's, it's super easy to customize.

You can put together your own job
boards and kind of flow workflow

for different types of work.

I think Trello is fantastic.

If, if you haven't looked at
Trello in a few years, I recommend

people take another look at it.

In the last couple years, they've
made some really, really impressive

improvements to it and functionality.

It has a lot more automations
built into it now.

You know, and if you gang Trello up
with, you know, a few other apps, you

know, using something like, like Zappy
or to string 'em all together, you,

you can, you can bang out a pretty.

A pretty functional little
job management system.

The bad thing about Trello,
what I don't like about it

is it's, everything's manual.

There's no automations really for like
moving a job from point A to point

B, keeping things moving forward.

Um, so it's basically like, think of
a, your old school paperwork order

system where that paperwork order
follows the job around the shop

and you've gotta physically, you
know, hand it to the next person.

Trello is very much just an
electronic version of that.

You gotta manually move
it to the next step.

And so for a large busy shop, I think
that's where Trello or really any of these

off-the-shelf apps are gonna break down.

It's just the fact that they, they
lack some of that sign industry

specific automation that we require.

But I think if anybody's looking for like
a starter solution and they, they, you

know, they don't wanna spend a fortune.

And they don't want to go move
to, you know, one of the, the

big industry specific programs.

I always recommend
people start with Trello.

And I think you can, you can make
Trello work for at least a few

years as you grow until it's ready
to graduate to something bigger.

I support that

Bryant Gillespie: a hundred percent.

I, I think, hey, like, you gotta start
somewhere and there's a lot of things

that you, you don't know at the beginning.

Uh, and this was, I think this was like
the gospel when we were at the former

software company, , uh, that like you
gotta start somewhere and you know, if you

spend a ton of time like analyzing and.

a putting together and researching and,
and trying to create this perfect workflow

that we've already told you does not
exist by the time you get done and you

launch that thing, the market has shifted.

Your team has shifted, like the
assumptions that you had at the very

beginning, you find out were later wrong.

So Trello is, is like a
super low barrier to entry.

The same with some of these other ones.

Like we could substitute Trello
for monday.com or Asana, or, or,

or some of those other ones, like
they all have similar functionality.

The biggest piece that I think they're
missing is probably like the database

of like, Hey, here's all of our
customers, here's all of our contacts.

How do all these things are late?

And.

, that's the advantage that you get
with some of the other systems.

Um, right.

But, but is there, are there any other
pros, cons you can think of for like

Trello or these off the shelf generic

Michael Riley: tools?

Well, I, I mean, there's
a lot of cons too.

I mean, and, and that's mostly just
because they're generic and off the shelf,

and so they require you as the user to
essentially to build the tool yourself.

Right.

I, you sign into Trello, it's not
gonna be set up for you or, or

air table or anything like that.

Like none of these apps are gonna
be ready to go for any sign company.

Oh, I forgot Airtable as well.

Yeah, I love Airtable too.

I'm surprised you forgot about Air Table.

You're looking Airtable

Bryant Gillespie: Guru

,
Michael Riley: uh, yeah, it's True.

Air Table.

Yeah.

If you, if you've never seen
Airtable, I recommend looking at it

because it kind of like combines.

It does give you the database.

Yeah, it's a database.

You get sort of like a, an Excel style
BA database, but you also get a drag

and drop card view just like Trello has.

So air table's got a lot of advantages
and honestly, if I were to like, so

Trello is like the very bottom as
far as like basic functionality goes.

Right.

And it's really cool and what it
does, what it does better than

anything on the market for sure.

But it's very, very basic and simple
where, and like you said, there's

no database attached to it, so
there's no a list of your customers

or you know, any of that stuff.

I think if you wanted to
step up and functionality.

Yeah, air table's like
probably where I would go,

Bryant Gillespie: and I agree with that.

I, I totally forgot about Air Table.

You know, I've been neck deep in
something else here lately, but , but

yeah, I've, I've made thousands of
dollars doing Air Table and Zapier,

Trello, pipe Drive Consulting, so mm-hmm.

. Yeah, air Table's a great solution.

It's, it's basically a build your own app.

So if you are the tinkerer
type, it's perfect for you.

You know, if you're a small shop and
you've got opinionated ideas on how

you wanna run things, Airtable is nice
because it does let you build it your way.

Obviously, you wanna start with
like a, a good foundation there.

And, and again, I think I might have
even built like a sample or something

to share maybe within our community.

I'll see if I can dig that up and include
it in the show notes, just like a start.

Template for Airtable to get you some
kind of base functionality out of it.

Michael Riley: Yeah, I
think that'd be great.

Air table's, I, I feel like Airtable
is overlooked by a lot of people.

I, I'm, and I'm not sure why that is,
but really you can, you can really build

some, a pretty powerful little app,
an Airtable and, and, and it, it drops

into the sign industry fairly well.

I mean, a lot of the way Airtable
operates is it is kind of in line

with the, with the way the sign
comp signed company would operate.

So you can really make it blow
pretty well for, for average

Bryant Gillespie: sign shop.

I, I, I think their Trojan horse
is like the spreadsheet view.

It's like a mm-hmm.

, it looks exactly like Excel, but
it's a, a full fledged database.

Mm-hmm.

. So it enforces like, Hey, if this
is a a number field, you gotta

stick a number in there and they
won't let you do anything else.

Or if this is a, like a customer
name, like you gotta pick from the

existing customer list type of stuff.

Yeah.

Uh, and then the other nice thing, they
do have an API as well, which makes it

easy if, if you're trying to create some.

Custom wild stuff as I've done for
clients in the past, uh, which is both

interesting and also comes with its own
drop acts, but it does have that API

Michael Riley: available.

Yeah.

You actually, you put one together
for me that was a little above my, my

pay grade as far as integrations go.

I remember that.

And I, um, you know, I had a kind of a job
board sort of list of all the database for

my customers and then all my active jobs.

And then when I was done with the job,
you set up an integration where I could

click a button and it would automatically
send all the data over to QuickBooks and

create an invoice for me automatically
over there, which was awesome cuz

it saved a huge amount of time.

Cause obviously an air table, there's
no accounting or anything built into

it, so having to manually like copy
and paste or transcribe that job

information over into an invoice and
QuickBooks is tedious for me because

I in a month could do a hundred jobs.

Yeah.

You know, and that's the, you know,
they're all small jobs that it's, it's a

lot of copying pasting in the QuickBooks
where otherwise I can just hit this

button and it just shoots it right over.

And I'm done.

Save me an insane amount of time.

I stopped using it.

?
Bryant Gillespie: Yes.

. Greener pastures.

Greener pastures.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

Uh, yeah.

But it was, it was great.

I loved it.

It was fantastic until I found this
other app that I'm using that, that is

actually purpose built for what I do.

Um, but yeah, I mean, it was, there's
so much you can do in Airtable and

I, I think you and I just scratched
the surface with what you did for me.

But, and, and it does have a powerful
API that really allows you to, to,

like I said, string multiple apps
together to really build a, a pretty

functional, all inclusive tool.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'd say Trello and then Airtable and

Bryant Gillespie: then the next leap.

Hey, let's do these in order
of like investment, I guess.

So let's move to industry
specific, off the shelf software.

I wanna say if, like custom for the end.

Because, because the, I think that
conversation's gonna be pretty short.

.
Michael Riley: Custom's expensive,
and you're gonna end up with a carbon

copy of what's already on the market.

, we've seen it happen.

Bryant Gillespie: Seen it happen.

All right, so industry specific software.

If we go sign industry
focused, we've got shop box.

You've got corporate

Michael Riley: serious

Bryant Gillespie: Sign tracker.

Sign tracker.

Square Coil.

Square Coil.

Is this for Coil?

Um, used to be called vs.

Sign.

Oh,

Michael Riley: that's right.

Yeah, it's a Square Coil.

Corbridge, Sirius.

Shop Box, sign Tracker estimate.

What are we missing?

I,

Bryant Gillespie: I don't know.

Hey, like half of those haven't
been updated in the last five

years, I would argue, but.

Yeah.

Estimate specifically.

Uh, you know, I like you and
I both love that program.

As ancient as it is

,
Michael Riley: I, I think estimate's
an awesome program for what it is.

It's fairly affordable.

It's not very expensive.

It takes a little bit of time to set
up, but it's not very complex to set up.

Um, estimate lacks any, any real like job
management, job tracking functionality.

It's really more of a pricing.

It's more of a pricing, you
know, calculator type program.

But, and it's, and it is dated, like,
and I don't mean this offensively

to the folks that estimate, I hope
they're not listening to this.

I mean, it, it's definitely in need
of like a UI update, but damn, if

it ain't the most, the most like
user-friendly, like powerful little sign

pro pricing software I've ever seen.

Like it is just brilliant
in the way it works.

And I will go to my grave, like being
a, an estimate cheerleader because it's,

it's a great little app for what it is.

It's not a, if you're looking for
like a, an all-inclusive, like shop

management, like a, like a true e r p.

You know, enterprise resource
management type program.

It is not, it's not gonna be estimate.

Right?

Like it's, it's, it's a
very specific little thing.

But

Bryant Gillespie: yeah.

And maybe that's where we need to go
next is kind of qualify this, right?

Like, some of these do, well, all
these things have their strengths

and weaknesses, but mm-hmm.

, like what you need to clarify for
yourself on shop management software,

mis, e r p, whatever you wanna call it,
is like, which of those pieces within,

within that are most important to you?

Is it, you know, hey, I need
something that will allow us to

get estimates out the door quicker.

You know, is pricing like the biggest
thing or is order management job

management kind of the biggest piece?

Or, you know, is it something else
like proofing or collaboration?

You know, but it usually, by far, like
the two biggest buckets that we've saw

or we've seen were what pricing and

Michael Riley: manage, like
job manage job, job management.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And, and if, if, if, A lot of shops.

I mean, I've seen a lot of shops
that really have like the production

management side dialed down or they're,
they're comfortable using paper

work orders and dry erase boards.

And that's okay if you are, I don't, you
know, we're not here to tell you that

that's not okay and a lot of shops just
need to solve the pricing problem only

and, and estimates a, you know, it's
a pretty slick little tool for that.

But, you know, moving up from estimate
into something that's, you know, a

little more, a little more robust would
probably be What, what do you think?

Sign Tracker?

I don't, yeah.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: I, I haven't
looked at Sign Tracker Tracker

specifically in the last six months.

Like, usually I try to keep up
to speed on all these mm-hmm.

and keep tabs on everybody and
like what progress they're making.

I know like Sign Tracker has
the estimating, it has like

some job management features.

I don't know how deep those go.

And that's, yeah, that's
the other reason for.

Shop management series that we're planning
is, is not just for all the community

members to kinda get a, an unbiased
look at all these tools, but also for

me to stay up to speed, things move

Michael Riley: fast, so, yeah.

Yeah, totally.

For sure.

Yeah.

Sun Tracker's pretty popular.

I know.

Seems like a lot of people use it.

It's been a while since
I've looked at it as well.

I looked at it for running my design
business and it's really geared

more towards production oriented
places, so it wasn't a good fit

for me, but people seem to like it.

I can't remember though, if it has,
how much it has in the way of like

estimating and stuff built into it,
versus more just production management.

But I know it's not like a, like,
as, as fully featured and robust

as some of the other, you know,
true e r P systems out there.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

And you

Michael Riley: may not need
that, depending on, yeah.

Yeah.

It may be perfect for you.

I, I know a lot of guys that are on the,
you know, the smaller side, maybe under

10 employees that just really need more
of a, a really good way to track jobs

through the shop and move away from paper.

Seem to really enjoy using
sign tracker for that.

So, yeah.

All

Bryant Gillespie: right.

Then we've got what serious.

We like Sirius.

That was like one of the first ones that
I experimented with back in the day.

Michael Riley: Sirius is old school.

They've been around for a while and

Bryant Gillespie: yeah, and they got
bought out by Corbridge at one point.

I'm not even sure.

Is is, are they still
selling Sirius number one?

Hey, we should look up that
before we start talking

Michael Riley: about it.

They've moved completely to,
to their cloud-based version.

So Sirius for a long time was a an MS
access database program that you had

to install locally on a server and use,
and I don't know if you've ever had

the pleasure of using it or not, but
the original version was we set it up.

It was

Bryant Gillespie: serious sms.

Yeah, it SMS or control.

Michael Riley: It did a lot.

It was a power of a program,
but it was difficult to use.

It was clunky because it had
to be installed on a server.

I

Bryant Gillespie: remember sitting through
the demo of, I still remember it to this

day, and this has been like 10, 12 years
ago, like sitting through the demo and I'm

like, shit, this does everything we need,
like all our worries are eased at this.

And then I spent two and a half
hours the first day trying to get SQL

Server set up and running correctly.

And then I was, I spent an hour on the
phone with tech support, uh, not knocking

the product, but the installation
process just totally turned us off of it.

And then the, like, the usage,
like if, if my boss and I were into

it, but the rest of the team, we
failed to get on board with it.

Uh, or they failed to get on board
with it just, just because of the,

uh, the robustness of it, I guess.

And it kind of, the interface
wasn't really helping things either.

Michael Riley: Yeah, and I, I
can't speak to the new version.

The, the cloud version they call control.

I, I believe it's,

Bryant Gillespie: so it's,
it is not actually cloud,

the database is in the cloud.

The application is still
running on your computer.

So that, is that how it works?

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would put Sirius in the
like, Hey, it's an option, but

they like off in the corner,

Michael Riley: um,

,
Bryant Gillespie: let's see.

A lot of shops use it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's still, still popular.

Uh,

Michael Riley: yeah.

Functionality wise.

Yeah.

Sirius definitely, you know, it, it charge

Bryant Gillespie: it up Mike so we
don't get those cease and desist.

Yeah, that's what I'm

Michael Riley: trying to do.

Just shut your mouth for a second.

Okay.

Stop talking.

Brian . No, I, I mean I used
it extensively at one point

and it, it, from a pricing
standpoint, it works really well.

I mean, it, it's a little old school
in the way the calculator and it

works, but you can definitely set
it up to run some pretty complex

calculations and do some pretty.

Pretty complicated quotes in it.

It's just, you're right, it's clunky.

It's the US user interface
isn't desperate to even update.

It's a little outdated now.

I definitely felt like the, you
know, the production management side

of Sirius was on the light side.

I don't think it really, it was
also very manual and which, which

I think opens the door for some
things to go sideways on you.

But I don't, you know, I
wouldn't, I wouldn't count

serious out as a contender either.

I mean, it just depends
on what your needs are.

Bryant Gillespie: Go back to your needs.

Not, not our needs, not what
everybody else needs Especi.

Right.

And, and, and it's especially

Michael Riley: not, oh, go ahead.

I was gonna, I think it's really important
that people understand too, that Bryants

and I, like we eat, breathe, sleep,
shop management, science software.

Like this is, this is and more so for
Bryant than me, but for both of us.

I mean, this was very much
like our entire lives.

And, and so we look at this stuff with
a more critical eye than some people do.

And we're gonna, we're gonna pick
things like the user interface apart

and like, oh man, that button should
be over there and this is a terrible

shade of gray and stuff like that.

So our, you know, take, take our
opinions with a grain of salt as well.

I think that's really cool.

Software snobs.

Yeah.

Let's, we, we are, we are, we are
huge, huge software snobs and we

need to admit that to ourselves
and to our audience right now.

.
Bryant Gillespie: Agreed.

Agreed.

. All right.

So I think that brings us
into like the next batch.

And I, I want to like, I want to
group square coil into this one, but

I don't know enough about square coil.

I, I, I've, I've seen demos
of it when it was vs sign.

I don't know enough about it.

Uh, that's one I look forward to
learning more about because I, I

saw some people bragging on it.

And, and to be fair, like in all of
the sign industry Facebook groups,

there's people bragging on each one of
these solutions, uh, that I've seen.

Uh, but again, you've also gotta kind of
take that with a grain of salt because

the, yes, it's a assigned industry
Facebook group, but just because Joe says

it's a, a great software and it changed
their shop for the better, doesn't mean

it's gonna be the right solution for you.

So, right.

Let that be The overarching theme of this
conversation is none of these are perfect.

None of them ever will be.

Find out which one works well for you.

So yeah, moving up into that
next tier we have shot box.

I'll put Corbridge in the same light

Michael Riley: and, and I
think Square, I'm looking at

Square Coil on Rally right now.

I mean, it, it, it looks like they've made
some pretty, pretty hefty improvements

to it since the last time I looked at it.

I, I definitely think that
that square Coil is gonna be a

contender in that, in that realm

Bryant Gillespie: too, which
would be, I don't know if I see,

yeah, I've got the website up.

I don't know if I see anything like
sales lead tracking or, or like

opportunities on the, like the front
end to manage the, the sales funnel.

But, uh, I see purchase orders and
inventory and costing and all that stuff.

So for the sake of this call, we'll,
we'll put those all in the same kind of

Michael Riley: bucket there.

Yeah, I, I think that's more of like
where you start getting into, you know,

in, in the weeds feature set comparison
where, you know, one might have more of

a front end CRM type functionality where
the other one is, you know, heavier on

the back end or something, but looks
like they have inventory document

storage, which is nice photo storage.

So, yeah, I, I think, I think Square
Coil definitely is something that people

should, should, should take a, a long,
hard look at and, and consider heavily

and then, Uh, chatbox and Corbridge.

Corbridge.

Yeah.

So Corbridge,

Bryant Gillespie: let's
start with Corbridge.

For the longest time, they were
obviously our biggest competitor

there at the, at Chatbox.

And, and just so we're clear, these
opinions are, are Mike's and mine alone.

Uh, we're no longer affiliated
with any of these companies.

Absolutely.

Uh, Corbridge, I know.

Here's what I know about Corbridge.

They've got a new version in the works.

I don't know if it's released yet or not.

I saw a preview of it in
Las Vegas back in October.

I.

I like the interface.

There was plenty of white space.

I don't know why that's a
requirement on my shop management

software list, but it is,

Michael Riley: I I think that's an
important point because you, you mentioned

a second ago that you had a heck of
a time getting your employees at your

shop to buy in the, the Sirius because
like, like whatever program you choose,

it's gotta be easy for the users to,
to get in there and do their job in.

And if, if it's so complicated and
the screen is so cluttered with crap

that, you know, your, your dude running
your, your wide format printer, just

he can't get in there and see what
he needs to do and easily and quickly

find the information he needs, then you
got a pretty big problem on your hand.

And that's, I mean, that's something that
we saw quite often with, with shop box

users as well, is they had a hard time
getting employee buy-in on the system

because it was, you know, set up too
complicated or, or for whatever reason.

But if your staff isn't willing to use
the program, I mean, if they're just.

You know, if it's a mutiny because
it's too complicated for them,

then you definitely need to go
back to the drawing board For sure.

So that, I think the cleanliness of
the user interface, the ease of na,

you know, navigation is, is a, a really
critical part of the decision making

process in this because, you know, it's,
it's gotta be user friendly, not just

to the person setting it up, but to,
you know, the people on the shop floor

that are gonna use it to Yeah, yeah.

And actually, actually more so for them,
I mean, it, it doesn't really matter

how, how hard it is for you to set it up.

You, you know, once it's set up,
it's set up, it needs to be, you

know, the top priority needs to be
ease of use once it's in action.

Bryant Gillespie: I agree.

Yeah.

I like, I didn't imagine we'd be weaving
tips into this as we were going through

the list, but yeah, that's, that's
like tip number one is like bring your

employees into this search process.

Like who are your key employees that
are gonna be like, leading their

departments inside this software?

Because again, it's a, a
marriage, you're gonna be.

In it for a while until you decide to
annul or divorce or , just whatever,

call the cease and desist letters.

Send them on . Um, but yeah, it
involve the key employees in that

decision and, and give them, you
know, ultimately it's your shop.

You've gotta make that call and
they've gotta get it in line with that.

But, you know, involve them
in that process and get their

feedback throughout the process.

Because again, the last thing you
want is to invest three months of

your time, six months of your time.

We've had, you know, we've worked with
shops that took 12 months or more to

get something like this implemented

Michael Riley: and then they launch it
and then like everybody refuses to use it.

Yes.

Yes.

Bryant Gillespie: That's the last
thing that you want, that you've

been paying monthly or you know,
upfront, whatever you pay 20, $30,000.

And then you get into the software
and nobody wants to use it.

Mm-hmm.

involve those key people in that
decision making process on the front end.

And that way, even if they, you don't
go with the one that they choose or they

thought was the best fit, at least they've
felt they've had a say in it and you know,

they've been involved in the process.

Yeah.

Which, you know, hearkening back to
that episode with Jeff Sherman, that was

like the biggest thing, you know, that
was one of the reasons why he left his

previous employer was he just felt like
he wasn't being listened to anymore.

Mm-hmm.

.
Michael Riley: Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah, that's, that's,
that's really important.

Don't, don't just drop this on your
employees like, hey, surprise, . Guess

what it, that's, it's definitely
a way to a alienate employees

and make them feel not important,
not part of the bigger picture.

And this, you know, this is, this is
a tool that they're gonna have to use.

So it, it is, it is important that
they're able to use it and, and understand

it and, and are comfortable with it.

But yeah, I'm, I'm looking at some
of the screenshots here at corbridge.

It looks like they've made some, some
really nice improvements to this.

And so the last time I saw it
as well, uh, it looks like a

really nice user interface.

Seems like it's got some great reporting.

Did you find the new version?

I don't know if this is
the new version or not.

I'm just looking on their website.

I can't tell if it's, it's been
a while since I've looked at

Corbridge at least a year or two.

So

Bryant Gillespie: I'll make
sure we link out to all these

in the show notes as well.

Michael Riley: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

And then we got shot box.

Of course we gotta talk about that
one Shop box is, as I mentioned

earlier, it's been around for a while.

It was, it was, I, I, I think Sirius
was probably the first, you know,

app like this to hit the market.

But not long after Sein V
and then Shop Box came out.

So Shop Box has had a long
history in the industry.

It is, You know, Brian and I, obviously,
because we were both employees of Shop

Box for a long time, we know it extremely
well, better than the other programs.

And we can definitely say, I think
with I I I think it's a great program.

I mean, you know, like anything,
it's not without its problems,

but it, it is definitely purpose
built for the sign industry.

You know, a lot of what you see
in Shop Box is a hundred percent

user, you know, user driven as well.

So it, it's a, it's a pretty good
end-to-end, you know, solution.

For sure.

What are your thoughts on it, Brian?

Bryant Gillespie: I'll
give it two thumbs up, man.

Like, like yo, I and I, I will say
like, I invested a lot of time in Shop

Box, obviously like you can't unlearn
that type of thing, or like, as it

is hard for me to detach some of.

Like personal feelings from some of
it, but those things aside, it's a,

it's a pretty good piece of software.

You know, the, where they're at now,
uh, let's, let's talk about that.

That's probably a, a little better
conversation is, you know, they've

got the express version, which is,
you know, mostly for smaller shops.

You know, the job management features
aren't as robust as the pro version,

but the express version does have
a nice redesign user interface.

So if, if user interface is
high on the list for you, the

express version is worth a look.

Uh, as much as I know right now the
pro version of Shox is still on the

older interface, and every time I
talk to the team or, uh, you know,

see email newsletters, the, the new
version of Pro is still in the works.

I don't know if they're selling that to

Michael Riley: customers yet.

I think the new version, I think
they're migrating people through the

new version now and I think there
are some people that are on it.

I think, I think like version 1.0
of the new version is, is pretty

stable and up and running now.

Bryant Gillespie: I don't know if
you went to their website and said,

Hey, I want Sha Fox Pro, which
version you're gonna get of Pro?

Do you know?

Is it the the new one

Michael Riley: or I think
it's all new one now.

I think people are using
the new one I think.

I think a lot of like the more like,
like inventory stuff like that.

I think some of those features
are still being worked on.

So some of the features aren't
available in New Pro yet, but I believe

like the basic core functionality
is now, is now on the new ui.

That's my understanding.

But I could be wrong.

I don't know.

I don't work there anymore.

So what do I know?

?
Bryant Gillespie: We're both
just guessing here, which could

be dangerous for the podcast,

Michael Riley: but I mean, at
the end of the day, like the

functionality is the same regardless
what the user interface looks like.

And, and yeah.

Yeah.

All the features are the same.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Shop box's pricing engine is really good.

It is a learning curve to the pricing
engine, and I think that's probably

true of all of these, but I mean,
there's a little bit of a, a learning

curve to getting your products set
up and functioning the way you want

them, but it is extremely powerful.

You can really, you can do a lot with it.

There are some limitations to it,
like, like there will be with anything.

But, um, you know, if you're, if
you're good at writing, like Excel

style, Excel style, Formulas, you
know, you can, you can really open up

a whole other world of functionality.

And from a pricing side of things, the
shop box has a really, a pretty good

job of tracking production as well.

It's a little more automated than
some take this comment with a grain

of salt, cuz it's been a while
since I've looked at the others.

But, but I, I definitely think
that shop box has a, a bit of a

leg up on the competition from a
productions tracking standpoint.

Um, just the way their, their workflows
work and everything is, is pretty slick.

You know, for, for my shop
it was a game changer.

It really helped keep
everybody on the same page.

And that was, you know, the feedback
I got from a lot of our users as well.

It's not perfect.

I mean, there's some scheduling is
kind of difficult in in shop box if

you wanna really wanna break out and,
and like, you know, schedule each

individual production operation that a
job will go through from start to finish.

Definitely.

But, but I, I, I, I'm hesitant to.

Say that's really shop Box's fault.

And I'm gonna blame that
just on the industry.

Again, as I said earlier, every shop
does things a little bit differently.

There's not, you know, one industry
standard consistent way that every single

shop schedules their work or breaks out
their work and, and distributes it out.

So Shop Box, Google Calendar.

Bryant Gillespie: Google Calendar.

Google Calendar.

Yeah.

Michael Riley: So they,
or Outlook they've got,

Bryant Gillespie: if you're using
Outlook, just stop the call right now.

Like, yeah, we don't just plant that flag.

, go away.

.
Michael Riley: Um, so, you know,
again, like there's, there's, there's,

there's gonna be some give and
take with all these apps for sure.

And, and you just have to go into
it with realistic expectations of

what, you know, what a piece of
software can actually do and what.

What you still need to do outside of it.

Like, you know, maybe you do need to
schedule on a calendar or something,

you know, Google calendar instead
of, of using the, the, the shot boxes

built in scheduling functionality.

But yeah,

Bryant Gillespie: let's go to the final
tier and then, and then I wanna back up

and do like some, I want to like have
you give your advice and I'll like,

give a couple of nuggets on choosing and
implementing shop management software.

But the next tier, what, like, and like
building a custom solution, like having

a developer build you a custom solution.

Maybe you've got an in-house
developer that you're thinking

of building your own solution.

The final word on this is gonna be,
no, basically that's the end of story.

Uh, I will, I will put
like an asterisk beside it.

The only way that you should consider.

Is if you are already on one of these
programs, like we've just discussed, like

Shop, Fox, Corbridge, Sirius, whatever,
and you are hitting the limitations of

that, and you have sat down and thought
about what functionality you need out of

the next system, and you have a detailed
list of here's everything that we need.

You've, you've thought through
all of these things and you

have a budget to back that up.

Uh, the budget range that you're
looking at is gonna be $125,000 ish on

the low end to half a million dollars
on the high end, maybe even more.

You know, I'd, I'd hesitate.

Put a cap on it because it, I'm sure
somebody like Signs 365 or some of

these other, like large trade printers
have built all these systems from

scratch and you know, you've seen
how kind of slick their website is.

I'm sure their backend is just as
impressive, you know, Hey, like if

millions and millions of dollars in this.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

It, and, and we've been that we've, we've
had several shop box users that decided

they're gonna build their own system
and we had several that were trying to

build their own system and threw their
hands up and said, screw this, we're

just gonna buy something off the shelf
and come, come back the other way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

. Yeah.

It is, it is like, like those
numbers that Brian is throwing

out are not an exaggeration.

They.

Do not underestimate how
complicated that project is.

It's, it's not like, Hey, I'm gonna
build a spreadsheet that, you know,

calculates some prices for me.

I mean, there's a lot of functionality
there and it's a, it's an enormous

project that's gonna take a number
of people a lot of time to get done,

and it's gonna cost you a fortune.

Now, if you're a huge shop that's doing
10, 20 plus million dollars a year in

sales, or you know, your yes go, or
something like that, where you've got

deeper pockets than Walmart, you, you
can justify that cost and it's probably

money well spent for you because of,
you know, an operation of that size.

They need custom software that's dialed
in for exactly the way they operate.

They, you know, trying to use an
off-the-shelf system and adapt to that.

It's just, is this really not an option
when you're operating at that level?

But, I mean, let's be honest, probably the
president of the guest coast not listening

to this podcast, and, and it's probably,
you know, not looking at shop box anyway.

Average, average signed company owner,
if you're, you're under 10 million a

year in sales, while it may seem like a
viable option to you, It's not, and don't,

you know, just get it outta your mind
right now, like it's not gonna happen.

I, I've, I've got some firsthand
experience with this as well.

I know a shop that operates in that 10
million range who has been trying to have

a custom system built for them for years
and years and years now, and, They demoed

shop box and they felt like, you know,
this is just too cheap for what we need.

This can't do what we need
because it's not expensive enough.

And, and they've invested well into
the six figures on a custom software

system that doesn't even come close
to the functionality of Shop Box.

So like, you know, tread lightly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: And if you do get,
like, you talk to a developer and

they quote you something stupid,
like $20,000 to build this run.

Like, you better, yeah.

You better run like it.

You're going, like, you may spec it out
for them and they'll tell you $20,000.

I promise you.

Like if any of the founders of these
other companies were on the call with

us and they told you how much they've
invested in the development of these

platforms, like Shop Box or Corbridge,
or Sign Tracker, what have you,

it's gonna be way more than $30,000

So if you get, if you get a
stupid quote like that, uh, run.

Yeah.

So build your own custom software.

Know unless you're over 10 million in
annual revenue, and then think about it.

That's gonna be,

Michael Riley: and even then, I
think I, yeah, then it's a stretch.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: That's gonna
be the, the better side shop.

Flying in the sand there.

All right, so kind of pulling
around to wrapping this up, Mike,

what would be like your top 1,
2, 3 gotchas or tips or advice?

Like if it, somebody is like shopping
this arena right now, they're thinking

about, you know, switching systems or
implementing a system where they have

done, or they're trying to go from
Trello to something else, whatever.

Like what's your, what's
your hall of fame advice in

Michael Riley: this?

Oh, right, okay.

Number one, and I, we, we already
beat on this a little bit, but.

Be realistic with your expectations and
be prepared to compromise a little bit

because we are talking about off-the-shelf
software that wasn't built for your shop.

So you're going to have to be
willing to bend a little bit.

You're gonna have to be willing to
step back and look at your processes

and systems and the way you operate
and tweak those and adjust them so

that they work more in line with
whatever program that you choose.

That's, that's like a given.

That's number one.

If you are unwilling to do that,
then this whole endeavor is

going to be a failure for you.

Like I can tell you that with a
hundred percent certainty right now.

If you're unwilling to
compromise, don't even bother.

Just don't wa don't waste your time.

Don't waste these software companies
times cuz it's, it's gonna be a

bad outcome for everybody involved.

That's, that's number one,
like a hundred percent.

And that was I think, the biggest
battle that, that at least I faced when.

You know, it was implementing shop
box for shops all day, every day.

Was that, that that owner is just
like, they had it in their head that

it's gotta be this way and this way.

Exactly.

And if it doesn't do it that way,
then this is the program that's

junk and I'm not gonna use it.

And that's, that's you're just
setting yourself up for failure.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna jump on
there and say accountants as well.

Oh.

And then I'm, I'm just gonna get a
whole new crew of people hate us, . You

Michael Riley: know what, let's let
the accountants send all the hate

mail they want because they need
to be kept out of this discussion.

A hundred percent.

Like guys.

Look at me.

Don't get your accountant
involved in this discussion.

Don't bring them invol,
don't bring them into this.

All of these programs that we're
talking about are gonna be fine.

From an accounting standpoint, a
hundred percent every one of them works

fine from an accounting standpoint.

If they didn't, they
wouldn't be on the market.

It might not be exactly the way
your accountant likes to do things.

A lot of accountants have trust
issues with apps that are sending

data from the app in the QuickBooks or
something, and they freak out about it.

But if your accountant has that big
of a problem with it, to hire a new

accountant, like just full stop.

Get 'em out of there because
they're not doing you any good.

They're like, they're the biggest
nightmare to deal with when it comes

with these programs under the sun.

I know that sounds harsh, but it's true.

I mean, Brian and I have dealt with this
a lot, and your accountant will be your

worst enemy, in your biggest nightmare
of these programs if you let 'em.

But yeah, yeah, like avoid that.

So no accountants be realistic about it.

Um, gosh, what?

I'm trying to think what else.

I mean, I, to me those are,
that's like the biggest one is

just being realistic about what

Bryant Gillespie: I'll, I'll go and
then if you think of something else.

Michael Riley: Yeah, let me think
about some more while you're talking.

Yeah, yeah,

Bryant Gillespie: yeah.

So, uh, like, number one on my
list is gonna be a hundred percent

complete, not a hundred percent
complete, is what I'm gonna say.

Like, you think, Hey, I need, that's good.

One need to be a hundred percent
complete to launch this thing.

That's one of the biggest issues that
I, uh, I was at Shop Box seven years,

probably one of the top issues, uh,
that prevented people from going live

or getting value out of their software.

these things are never gonna be a
hundred percent complete, right?

Just like we said,
there's no perfect system.

You can't make a system perfect for
you, and it's never gonna be, the

pricing's never gonna be perfect.

The scheduling is never gonna be perfect.

Your own workflow on top of the
tool is never gonna be perfect.

So if you're waiting to launch, if
you pick one of these tools, you,

your strategy for implementing this
should be what is the smallest piece

that we can complete in six weeks?

Like, how much can we get
set up within six weeks?

And I would, you know, honestly,
if it were me and I was leading

the charge, I would want to bring
that back inside like four weeks.

But look at it, uh, like how
much can I get done in six weeks?

That's what we're gonna launch with,
and we're gonna start using the

hell out of it at that point, and
we'll fix the rest of it as we go.

Because a, as we said earlier, you
don't know what you don't know.

And.

Until you're actually using your
chosen software, you're not gonna

know the downfalls or the workarounds
or, or even, you know, just the best

way to do something until you're
actually neck deep and using it.

You know, , it's like you can watch,
if we back up to like your domain mike,

like design work, you can watch all
the YouTube tutorials on how to use

Corel draw or how to design a sign.

But until you're actually working on
a design and you're neck deep into

it, like you're not, you're not gonna
fully understand what's going on.

So you don't have to be a hundred
percent complete to launch.

And it like, uh, I'll like kick
that with the pricing side of it.

Like, , if you're waiting until all
of your products and pricing are.

Don't, you know, pick a, a
few core products, um, because

that, that is one of the biggest
challenges of all these softwares

is getting it set up and running.

Focus on your core products, you know,
get to a, just good enough to where

you're not losing money, you know, you're,
you're still profitable on the pricing,

but pick a certain subset of products
like, hey, tell your team like, okay,

these five products are now okay to
price inside the software and then use

as much as the rest of it as you can.

Yeah.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

I, I think that's, I think that's good.

Kind of, kind of do a phased rollout.

I, I would say the, the majority of the
users, at least the shop box users that

I've worked with over the years that
get it implemented and they get up and

running and, and they're using it for a
while, I, I would, I would say that the

vast majority of them eventually over
time will come back to the table and say,

okay, we've been using this for a while.

We figured out what works and what
doesn't work well for us, and now

we need to kind of go back to the
drawing board and, and sort of.

Start rebuilding what we've already
done and fixing a lot of things and

implementing a program like this is going
to be, you know, it needs to be looked

at as a, as a very long-term project.

And it's a living, breathing organism
in a way that's always evolving.

So it's never, you know, you don't
just set it up and you're done and

you, you know, you forget about it.

You're always constantly going
to be massaging it and fine

tuning it and tweaking it to get
it, you know, where you want.

You're always introducing new products
and pricing is changing, or you

change the way you do something.

So it's, it's always gonna be, you know,
a living project that's never fully done.

And yeah, Brian's right, like if you,
if you have that expectation where

we're not gonna introduce this through
the team and we're not gonna launch it

until, in my mind it's done, you will
never, you'll never get it launched.

It's true.

And we've definitely seen that
with a lot of, lot of people who

just, you know, what was that?

Was that movie?

Failure to Launch with like
Matthew McConaughey or something?

There you go.

Bryant Gillespie: You're gonna
beat Matthew McConaughey.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

Living in Wish I could do a
Matthew McConaughey voice.

All right.

All right, all right.

Alright.

Right.

All right.

All right.

. Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: All right.

I don't know if you thought of one.

I got one more laid on.

Oh, I thought I did.

And let me try to read my notes.

Oh, man.

Michael Riley: That, that just popped into
my head is, is looking at the, you know,

comparing features of these programs too.

I mean, uh, you know, it's easy to look at
like a feature comparison chart and, and,

and try and pick the one that has the most
features or the best features or whatever.

But, you know, ki kind of in the
same vein as, as is only, you

know, rolling it out in phases and
picking the most important part.

I mean, don't buy based on, which has
just, you know, the most, the most

features, like checks the most boxes.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Because chances are pretty good.

, even though it has a lot of these
features, you, you might not

need 'em, you might not want 'em.

Um, they might not really be quite
in line with the way you want it

to, you know, want it to work.

And also, we've seen this too,
with a lot of people, like,

okay, there's this feature there.

I feel like I'm compelled to use it
because it's there and I'm paying for it.

So now I've gotta use this
inventory tracking feature.

Yeah, that's a good one too.

Even though I don't need inventory, I,
I'm, it's there, so I've gotta use it

and, and well, it doesn't work the way
I want it, so this whole program sucks.

I'm gonna cancel it.

Right.

That happens a lot too.

We've seen that a, a ton Don.

Don't feel compelled to use every
single bell and whistle in these

programs just because they're there.

If you don't need it, just shut it off.

Hide it in the background.

Don't complicate your employee's day
days by making them wade through a bunch

of features that don't affect them or
don't, don't really come into play.

That's not necessary.

You know, keep it as simple as you can.

Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna give
that one like a, a headline and

like, say that these programs should
be looked at as like, accelerate,

like , like, you know, or like a,
a force multiplier or something.

Like if your process y yes, they'll
give you some structure and process,

you know, and that's part of what Mike
said, where you have to be willing

to kind of bend your systems a little
bit to the tool that you select.

Like, these guys aren't gonna
give you a business in a box.

That's like the, one
of the other caveats is

Like, you can't buy one of these
expecting it to run your shop for you.

Um, and if, if you've got a, a failure
or a big problem, In your team or within

your like informal like soft systems,
like working with teammates or you

know, like, Hey, this information's
not getting communicated, shop or

Corbridge or any of these other
tools, they're not gonna fix that.

And in fact, like they're
going to magnify that problem.

You're gonna shine

Michael Riley: a light on it.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

And then you know it's
gonna be a frustrat.

Endeavor for

Michael Riley: everybody.

Yeah, that's a really, that's a really
good point too, is I, I think a lot of

people go into this with the expectation
that it is going to, to make fundamental

foundational changes to their business.

And it's, it's, it's definitely
not going to do that.

It's still requires you to know how to
run a business and it requires you to

be, you know, active participant in that.

Yeah.

It's just a tool.

Bryant Gillespie: It's, it's
not anything more Exactly.

It's, it's not a business in a box.

Like, you can't sign up for one
of these thinking, they're gonna

have pricing worked out for you.

They may have like some kind of
starter database, which we may or

may not have had a hand in years ago.

Um, but it, like, it's,
it's not going to be.

Ready to go out of the box and it, it's
not gonna run your business for you.

The other one that I had, and I couldn't
read my handwriting, that's how bad it is

when you're in conversations and you're
talking to your sales reps or you know,

even if you're on one of these softwares
already, you're gonna be, uh, privy to

like, Hey, this update is coming soon.

Or, you know, you're gonna be, uh,
you may hear some things about the

roadmap, uh, we're working on this
feature or this feature is coming.

Take all those conversations that
you hear unless you see proof,

treat it like it doesn't exist.

Just put it out of the back of your
mind because, and I will say it's,

it is kind of a mix like there, there
may be some fault of the company here,

but it's also software development and
being knee deep in that environment

and working at other companies.

uh, software dev development is
not like building a sign where

there's like a a linear process.

You know what, what may look like a
simple feature on the surface once

you actually get into it, and, you
know, the, the architecture of the

software is gonna matter there as well.

Like the, the choices that were made
years ago when they were building

the software affect the features
that they're working on now.

So if somebody says, Hey, this is,
we're gonna have this in six weeks.

And, and that is not like ironclad.

If somebody tells you that on a call or
an email, it's conjecture, it's a guess.

Just do not tell your team.

Do not pass.

Go.

Do not collect $200.

Don't put any stock in it and don't
base any of your decisions on it.

Uh, likewise, if you're shopping now
for shop management software and you're

talking with a rep and they say, Oh,
hey, we're gonna have this feature.

You ask about a feature, they say,
Hey, we're we, we're working on it.

Now it's in beta, or whatever.

Just put it out of the back of your mind.

That's, that's not a checkbox,
you know, it may be in six

months, it could be 18 months.

You never know.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

When I entered that world of, of
software development working for

Shop Box, that was a, that was an
interesting lesson I learned as well.

Cause I'm so used to the sign industry
where everything is, is, is rush.

Everything has a deadline.

Everything is right.

Now, now, now even, even for the biggest,
most long-term sign projects, I mean,

they still have a deadline that gets done.

And like you said, it's a linear
process that's fairly predictable

and that's, software development
is just a whole other ballgame.

And it is this glacially slow process.

Especially when you're talking
about apps that are as complex

and big as the ones that we are.

I mean, these are not, there's not
simple things in, in, in every, like,

like Brian said, every feature, every
little tweak that they make to it

has bar reaching implications on the
back end of that software that is a

user you don't see, but they take.

You know, a monumental amount of time
to work out multiplied by however many

changes and features and updates that
are trying to be made at one time.

And, and yeah, I mean, it's a
recipe for, it's a slow process.

, I'm, I'm fairly certain, you know
what, I, I started at Shop Box

like what, seven years ago now?

Six years ago, something like that.

I'm fairly certain there's still some open
tickets from my first week on the job that

are still, you know, underdevelopment.

So, and that's, no, you know, we're
not pointing the finger at the software

company by saying that it's just
the nature of nature of the nature

Bryant Gillespie: of the piece.

Yeah.

And, you know, knowing that cut them
some slack on the other side as well.

Yeah, totally.

Like, like this is, there's, there's not
a blueprint for what they're building.

Like, it, it's not like, Hey, Mike
has gone through and exquisitely

designed, here's where all
the nuts and bolts need to go.

Uh, they're It's more into like building
the airplane as you're in the air as

Michael Riley: you're flying it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's exactly what it is.

I mean, it's, the best analogy
I think you're gonna find for

software development is, Building
the airplane while you're flying it.

Bryant Gillespie: All right, I got
one more exclamation point and then

we will like mic drop this one.

If, if you're the owner of the
shop, uh, and you know, probably

what, like maybe 80, 90% of the
people listening probably are.

If, if you are the owner, this process
is gonna take a ton of your time and you

have to prepare yourself accordingly.

Uh, this is not a project
and, and I, I will say this.

There are some conditions to this.

Maybe you're not involved in the
day-to-day anymore, then maybe you could

kind of take a backseat in this process.

But if you are the owner and you are
directly involved in the day-to-day

operations of your business,
this project, implementing shop

management software is going to take
a large investment of your time.

It is not something that you can hand
off to a junior level team member.

Or somebody new to the industry
and expect good results.

I stare directly into the camera
as I say these things, . For that

reason, you cannot hand this off
to somebody that you hired six

months ago and expect a good result.

Thank you

Michael Riley: for saying that.

I, I can't believe I, I forgot that one.

I, that is, that is an excellent point.

Quick anecdote.

I had a fairly large sign company
when I was in the shop box.

They, they were up in the
two, three, $4 million range.

Signed up for Shop Box and the, the
owner of the company put his 14 year

old daughter who'd never, didn't, had
never worked in the sign industry.

You know, she came in to hang out with
Daddy at work and that was about it.

He put her in charge of it
because she's good with computers.

And, I mean, you can
guess where that landed.

I mean, yes.

They never, ever, it, and I had the

Bryant Gillespie: I, I have
seen this Ruin employees lives.

Okay.

And like, oh yeah, I, I, I've
heard these stories like firsthand,

secondhand, the, these systems
again, like they're a multiplier.

Like if you get this implemented
and running inside your business,

it is going to like change your
business a hundred percent.

If you don't do it the right way
or you, you handle everything

poorly, it, it's gonna ruin lives.

Like you might lose employees over
it, which I've seen happen time and

time again because it, like, as the
owner, uh, and especially like a, you

know, a lot of the guys that we talk
to are not just new to the industry,

like they're 10, 20 years into it, you
know, on a similar playing field as us.

Uh, so if you've got 10 years of industry
knowledge and you're trying to hand this

off to somebody, but you don't make the
time, like daily, you need to make two

or three hours a day or, uh, you know,
have a, like a whole dedicated day on

your calendar to sit down with whoever's
implementing this, whether that's

yourself or, uh, another team member.

And you need to go through all these
things like, Hey, how do I price?

Uh, because there's a lot of
that firsthand knowledge that

a like just doesn't make your,
make its way to your team.

And

Michael Riley: so these, these
programs, they touch every.

Every corner of your business.

I mean, they, they are very, very
deep and broad in what they do.

And the only person at, at your sign
company that really knows, you know,

has that deep understanding of,
of how your business operates and,

and, and how it needs to interface
with these programs is you as the

owner, you're the only one that does.

And, and it's extremely
unrealistic to think that you can

hand any of that off employee.

I mean, I, I'm not even a fan of the owner
working with a lower level employee on it.

I, I really, I mean, in rare cases
it works, but in most cases it

doesn't because there's still going
to be that, that that knowledge gap

between the owner and that person.

And no matter how much time you dedicate
to it, you still can't like, you

know, fully brain dump on that person.

Everything that they need to know.

I mean, it, and it, and it, you know,
like Brian said, we've seen it happen

many, many, many times and it, it will
tank the, it'll tank the implementation.

And it's just, I mean, to be frank,
I mean that's just, it's just,

that's just dumb and poor business.

To think that you can hand off something
that's that critical to somebody who's.

who's not that critical of,
you know, of an employee.

I mean, there's no other word
for it, and that's just stupid.

And, and we've seen it happen
so many times and you're,

and yeah, Bryant's, right?

Like I, we've seen a lot of employees
just throw up their hands and quit.

We've seen a lot of
failed implementations.

We've seen, you know, we've seen things
go sideways pretty badly because owners

just don't, they don't understand that.

But this is, this is a hundred percent,
the owner has to be heavily, heavily,

heavily involved in this process.

And if you, as the owner are not
able or willing to be involved in

that process, then just stop now.

Don't even bother going any further
with looking for these programs

because you're gonna fail at it.

It's just, yeah, I mean, that's,
that's harsh and blunt, but that's,

that's the truth of it, is like, as,
as an owner, like you have to, if

you don't, just don't even bother.

It's just not worth anybody's time.

And you're wasting everybody's
time by, by trying.

Yeah.

Even hiring a

Bryant Gillespie: consultant is going
to not help you unless you're involved.

It just, no, just not.

Michael Riley: Yeah, we've worked with
a lot of consultants too, who, who may

know the sign industry really well.

But like I said, every shop does
things a little bit differently.

So just because that sign, that sign
consultant or that industry consultant

understands the industry, they don't
understand your business the way you do.

They, there's, and they may be able to
push buttons and, and, you know, make the

software work, but it's probably not gonna
be the way you need it to work for you.

And, and if you're not involved in
that process, you're just, you're

just throwing money down the toilet.

Don't do that.

Don't be that person.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Cool.

Well man, this is a good, good,
um, Episode to shake the cobwebs.

You know, it's been, it's
almost like a topic that's

near and dear to us, isn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, you know, like four or six weeks
or, yeah, probably right before the

holiday since we've recorded an episode.

So, you know, I was a little nervous
coming into this one, but , I, I, I think

this was a good conversation and I, you
know, I hope it's helpful to a lot of

folks out there that are looking at shop
management software this time of year.

You know, it's a, a hugely
important piece of your business.

Uh, treat it with that respect.

You know, give it the time and attention
it deserves, and it won't kick you to

the curb, or take your house and your
dog and your car and all those things.

Michael Riley: Hey, hey, I got a,
I got a terrible dad joke for you

Bryant Gillespie: in the show.

Hey, yeah, you, you know, I'm
good . I'm game for Dad jokes.

Michael Riley: What do you get if you
play a country music song backwards?

Oh, I know

Bryant Gillespie: this one.

I've already heard this one.

Is your

Michael Riley: wife back and your dog back
and your house back and your car back?

Yes.

Yes.

I think, sorry, I had to do it.

Yeah, yeah.

No, I

Bryant Gillespie: like that one.

Michael Riley: I love a good dad joke.

Bryant Gillespie: I, I think I've
got a whole book downstairs that

somebody got me for Christmas.

Yeah, I

Michael Riley: do too.

Yeah.

.
Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

Right on man.

Well, glad to be back.

I hate that we didn't
have Peter for this one.

I know he's got a ton
of thoughts on it, but.

Good episode.

If you are interested in being a guest on
the podcast, look, we want to talk to you.

We enjoy interviewing other guests just as
much as we like talking about ourselves.

So send us an email at,
Hey, better Sign Shop.

Or if you, uh, and maybe you
know, somebody that you think

would be a good interview for
the podcast, email us about them.

We'll reach out to them.

We'll do all the hard work there,
pester them into joining the show.

If you are a shop owner, uh, make sure
you jump in and join our Facebook group.

The Better Sign Shop Community.

It is exclusively for
owners and management.

It's a safe space where you can talk
about some of these things that we

talk about on the podcast, marketing
employees, uh, management, pricing.

I know that's not allowed
on a lot of other groups.

We allow it in ours because it's an
important piece of your business.

So jump in, say hello.

We've got a lot of great
community members there who are

on the same journey as you are.

Anything else?

I think we're good.

Michael Riley: Sounds good.

Bryant Gillespie: Perfect.

Getting better at that outro thing.

All right, guys.

, thank you.

We'll catch you on the next one.

I'll see you, Mike.

Bye

Michael Riley: guys.

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