Better Sign Shop Podcast

Learn how to build a better sign
and prt shop from a few crusty

sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

workflow, growth, and more.

Your listening to The Better Sign Shop
podcast with your hosts, Peter Kunis,

Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.

Before we jump into the episode,
I'd like to give a shout out to

our sponsor, GCI Digital Printing
Grand Format Printer to the trade

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providing you a fast stress-free

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No other vendor will go to the links
that GCI does to ensure you are

a satisfied customer to hear more
about their approach to business.

Hop back into the archives to episode nine
where the guys and I interview owner tj

be act about top tier customer experience.

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Hi guys.

Welcome back to another edition of
the Better Science Shop podcast.

I'm your host, Brian Gillespie.

I'll be joined by my colleague
Peter Unis, the Science Shop,

Yoda, in the actual episode.

But we had a bit of technical
difficulties when we were originally

recording this episode, but I just
wanted to come back with a quick intro

and say thank you for being a listener,
and I really think you're gonna

enjoy this episode with our special
guest, Dan Yoder of Sign Art Studio.

Back to the episode.

Alright guys, welcome back to the podcast.

I've got a very special guest, Mr.

Dan Yoder from uh, sign Art Studio.

Dan, huge fan of your work, man.

It is.

I, I don't often curse on the podcast,
but it's fucking awesome, man.

I love the work that you guys do.

Was super excited when you reached
out and, you know, um, I, I asked to

join us on the podcast for an episode.

Uh, we've already had a
short chat previously.

Um, uh, you know, I think we've,
we've got a great conversation

lined up, but hey, super curious
to see where it takes us, but yeah,

me too.

Welcome on.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for having me.

It's, uh, it's an honor.

Uh, your guys', I stumbled
across your podcast.

Somebody at the shop pointed it out and it
was, it like every episode I listened to.

It was like kismet at the time.

Like, we're going through the
same shit right now, you know?

So that's great.

I, uh, well, I felt the calling to, uh,
to reach out to you guys and, and have a

conversation, so thanks for having me out.

I appreciate it.

Yeah, man.

That's what, that's what we're all about.

Like it to me, hey, like back in the old
days, you know, there was like industry

forum and, and whatever, and, and like,
people weren't super nice on there, but

it is just, it is, sometimes it's just
nice knowing that you're not alone and

struggling with some of this stuff.

E even if you don't have a solution for
some of the, the stuff that we face on a

daily basis, it's, it's nice to hear that
other owners are struggling with the same

thing.

Exactly.

Yeah.

We, uh, I was just talking
about that this morning.

You know, it's, uh, we're the hardest
on ourselves, that's for sure.

And then you, you start talking to other
people in the industry or, you know,

whether it's on a, a Facebook page or
to a forum or listening to on a podcast.

Um.

You know, you're like, Hey,
you're not alone in this.

So, so yeah, it's cool.

And it's, it's interesting, you
know, and I'm sure we'll get into

it a little bit, but, you know, like
Letterheads is such an, an inclusive

group of people wanting to share tips
and tricks and, um, and all that.

But when you get into the, you know,
the bigger shops, it seems like that

type of culture almost doesn't exist.

Nobody wants

to peel back the Yeah.

Nobody wants to show behind the curtain.

Uh, yep.

Yep.

So just because there's, there's
a fear of losing the secret sauce

or whatever it is, but, right.

Yeah.

Uh, before we get too far into
the weeds, why don't you, Hey, for

anybody who doesn't know, you know,
like, give us an intro, uh, to sign

our studio and yourself, and, you
know, tell us about your background.

What's, what's the story
of, of your journey?

Well, thanks.

Yeah.

So, uh, my name's Dan Yoder.

Um, we sign art Studio here.

Uh, I've been.

Been in business since 2005.

But yeah, I, you know, always interested
in art, you know, and, you know,

drawing like, uh, Metallica album
covers and stuff like that as a kid.

And, um, so yeah, I, I
just had a passion for art.

Um, I didn't know what way
that would materialize as I,

you know, came into adulthood.

But yeah, I got a job at a sign
shop when I was 19 years old.

And, uh, vital Signs and
Verona, really great dudes.

Um, and they were still doing
hand lettering, pin striping,

airbrushing, um, you know, a bunch
of dimensional signs to gold leaf.

Everything was cut out on a
bandsaw, you know, we didn't have

a CNC router, no digital printer.

Um, so I was fortunate to come up in a
shop like that, and I remember walking in.

Like child wondering at like,
Holyoke, is this a, is this a thing?

Like we can do this for a career.

So yeah, I fell in love
with it right away at 19.

Um, and then I got fired very quickly
after for being, you know, 19.

And, and it was, it was well deserved.

I remember, um, I was sitting, or I was
asked to coat out some boards and there

was, there's a little bit of an art to
that, you know, we used MDO all the time,

and so we coat out these boards and, you
know, you'd oil base and do it with a foam

roller and, you know, you could roll the
bubbles out and get it like glass glass.

And I remember Mark Kramer, um,
who worked there, he, he's like, go

ahead and, and coat out these boards.

And for some reason I took
him off the saw horse.

I sat down on the ground with the
panel next to me and was rolling paint.

I'd roll it off the board onto the floor,
from the floor, back onto the board,

putting all the crap from the floor on.

Can't do it.

So, long story short, my tenure
didn't last long there, uh, in

the beginning, but, uh, I did
come back, uh, I don't know, three

or four months later, um, my Oh,

okay.

You said they, they were
willing to have you back then.

That's

good.

So, yeah, then I stuck, I think, uh,
all in, I was there for six years.

Um, went to letterhead, meets all
over the country, went to London for

a letterhead meet, so, uh Oh, wow.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

Big exposure to letterheads.

And after my first meet, I mean, the
hooks were in big time, a hundred percent.

So, yay.

That's it in a nutshell.

My, my background and how I arrived
in this industry, not by, uh.

Wasn't intentional.

I just happened.

I happened to fall into
it like many others, I I,

I'm not sure that there's anybody that
I've talked to that was intentional.

Um, we just had a guest on James, um,
that grew up in his parents' sign shop,

and that's all he ever wanted to do.

But like outside of that, I, I've not met
too many people that were like, Hey, I, I

was, unless they grew up in the business,
like they, you know, signage it is, it's,

they don't teach you that at school.

Like, pick a career day and
it's like, oh, hey, you can make

a, a good living creating cool
stuff that people pay you for.

Right.

Um, and, and you help businesses
grow at the same time.

It's, you know, you know, I,
and it wasn't, wasn't an option.

It's funny you say that 'cause
it's been the same experience

with anyone I've ever talked to,
um, other than we just hired, um.

A technical designer for a
pre-production department.

John Nere, he's, um, lives in Cape
Cod in Massachusetts, and turns out

he actually went to trade school in
Boston to learn hand lettering, and he

was one of the last classes Oh, wow.

At this trade school.

So he's the only exception to that, and
it seems like he eventually got into it.

Um, so yeah.

But yeah, most everybody I, I met, they
just randomly fell into it and, and the

hooks got in just like the rest of us, so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Hey, and once they're in,
there's no getting out.

Exactly.

I know.

Walk me through how you
started sign Art Studio.

Like what, you know, were you, was
that right on the hills of, of when

you stopped working at Vital Signs or?

Yes.

Was there something in between there?

Like, yeah, walk me through that.

So.

I got fired, got so, and it was like it
was the second time and the last time.

Um, and we won't get, we won't get into
the circumstances of that, but you know,

Mike, uh, Chamberlain, the former owner
of Vital Science, he's since retired,

um, and then sold it to Mark Kramer.

Both of those guys are my
mentors, really amazing people.

Uh, but we're on great terms.

We have been for a long time, so we
moved past, uh, that, that point in time.

But, but yeah, I, I, you know, we got
actually my, my dad and I were gonna

build custom hardwood furniture and
so we had kind of started, um, a side

gig doing that, and then it turned
out we wanted to do it full time.

So, um, but then that, you know,
while that was happening, so this

was back in 2005 when I was 25 at
the time, you know, there wasn't

any income from that in that moment.

So that's when I started Syn Art Studio.

At the time, actually, I got a job
offer from a local, um, semi dealer, a

Peterbilt dealership, um, to basically
start the graphics department.

So, you know, when they sell, when
they sell a truck, you know, you

could get a whole custom, a whole
custom gi up on your vehicle.

Um, and they offered me like a
$60,000 salary and I was like,

holy at that time for me, that was,
you know, that was all Oh yeah.

And, um, especially

being young, it's, yeah, like somebody,
somebody throws more than a couple hundred

dollars a week at you, you're like, holy.

Yep, yep.

Exactly.

So I, uh, you know, it was, you know,
at the time, the, the girlfriend

I was with at the time, she said,
you know, 'cause I'm like, I don't

know what I, what do I wanna do?

And she said, well, if you take that
job, will you always wonder what

could have been or will you start.

A sign shop and always wonder
what could have been if you

would've take, taken that job.

So that was an easy, it was like,
you know, you so let's do it.

But yeah, then I, so I
started that in, in, in 2005.

Um, just a, a one man operation.

I think the first couple
months I just worked out of a

corner in my parents' garage.

Um, but yeah, I just hit the, hit
the streets and looked for signs that

either needed an update or businesses
that didn't have a sign to begin with.

And yeah, so a couple months after,
um, I moved into 150 square foot

shop, uh, just right here in town,
no bathroom or anything like that.

And I had a buddy of mine who
helped, helped help part-time.

Um, but yeah, I was gonna sit on a stool
and hand carve and hand paint signs.

And then somewhere it was probably 2000.

Six into 2007, um, moved
into a, a bigger shop.

I think the workspace we had
was about 1500 square feet.

And, um, got a, a job to design
and build a monument side for a

local, uh, office park development.

And, and I had a blast designing it.

It wasn't anything that we'd really done
when I worked at Vital Science, you know,

it was more of an architectural approach.

Sure.

And that changed the whole
direction of, of Sign Art Studio.

And we started moving into, you
know, slowly but surely moving into

bigger commercial developments.

Um, and eventually in 2007 we
got our Ewell, um, listing.

And yeah, we kind of took a, a
departure from what I thought I

would do, which is again, do all
sorts of hand painting all the time.

So, yeah, that and, and at that time.

So it was 2007, there was three of us.

And then in, so it's 20 21, 20 24.

We've been in this space for six
years and we moved into this space.

There was five of us, and now we have 28.

Wow.

A lot of growth.

So it's just in the last few years,
like growth has exploded then.

Yep, yep.

And I was, you know, I
was gonna keep it small.

We didn't really look for work.

People kind of came to us and just
decided at a point in time, you know, we

had carved out a little bit of a niche.

You know, we weren't doing anything
that, that other shops couldn't do.

We just started doing stuff that
other shops weren't doing anymore.

Uh, and I think that, that, ah, I got you.

Yeah.

You know, it, it, it carved
out a little bit of a niche.

Some, you know, design
is hugely important.

You know, I think that's the basis of
everything, um, as far as I'm concerned.

And, you know, my training was,
was from a, a letterhead and

assigned painting standpoint.

So I think that gave
a leg up in some ways.

You know, I honestly, I think if there's
a, a crux in our industry, um, at times

I think it's designed, I think it's,
it's undervalued and sometimes I see

signage work that I'm just saying, really.

Like, that's really, and I get it,
you know, customer could have been

involved or they're, you know, my,
my niece designed this logo for me.

So it's gotta be that, you
know, I know the story.

That's, that's

what we're rolling with.

Yeah.

So, well, it's, it's, it's such a, yeah.

Like everything that we do is design
driven and, you know, I, I had a call

with, uh, some newer sign shop owners
a couple weeks ago, and like, they

were stressed out about the business
side of it, but the, the husband

was a, a former graphic designer.

What he did, and I was like,
dude, you're gonna be okay.

Like, just lean on that because
that'll get you, like the guy who

buys a, a plotter and a printer
who has no design background.

Like, you'll beat that guy every time
if you just lean on that aspect of it.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

And so that, that helped a lot for us at
least, you know, establishing a corner

of a, of a market and I wasn't stepping
on my former employer's toes, and so

it worked out, worked out pretty good.

Gotcha.

So you stayed in the, the same area then?

Yeah.

We're, we're, we're about 25 minutes
west of Madison, uh, Wisconsin, so.

Okay, got it.

Um, yeah, and, and vital signs
is 10 minutes from my shop, so.

Oh, okay.

Yep.

Oh good.

And hey, like, looking at your work,
man, it's, it is clear, clear to me like.

How that is, is like influenced.

But, um, before we dive into like the,
the art and like, versus business side

of it, like, you've got 28 people, what
does the, what does the team look like?

What, you know, how do projects flow?

Like those sorts of things.

Yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

So we, we have, uh, what's going, Peter?

Oh, there's Pete.

What's up, Pete?

Hello?

Yeah, we got you, dude.

All right.

We good?

Yeah, we hear you.

You're good.

Alright, cool.

Sorry I'm late.

Oh, all good man, Dan.

Amen.

I'm, I'm great.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So yeah, we have our, our client
experience department, that we have

our, our two account executives.

Um, our design team, well design team
consists of, I'm the director of design.

I don't do.

I kind of pick and choose on
the design projects I work on,

but we have a lead designer.

Um, and then we have another
designer that works part-time.

Um, so in our client experience, we
have design, uh, our account executives,

and then our project management
team is then client experience.

Then we have our pre-production
department, and there's three

people, uh, on that team.

Um, Kurt Crawford, our technical director,
he's been with me for the long haul

since there was, it was just him and I.

So he's been here about
13, going on 14 years.

So he runs the pre-production
department, which is all the technical

design, how we're gonna build it.

Uh, then we have our production team,
um, does all the fab work, of course.

And then our field operations
team who handles all of the, uh,

all the installs, our surveys.

All the survey work is, is part of
the pre-production team, which is

something that we kind of re-looked
at versus it being typically

part of the install crew side.

Um, we figured that the
pre-production department needed

to source the proper information.

Um, so we kept our, we have our
surveyors technically part of

the, our pre-production team.

So that's it in a, in a, in a

nutshell.

Do you guys, I, maybe I missed it.

Did you guys have any sales reps,
like any account executives or, yeah,

so that's in our client experience.

Yeah.

We got two account executives.

Okay, gotcha.

Yeah.

And, and two project managers.

So, um, yeah, we just, so we had run
without a project manager at all for

quite a while until it just got too much
for, you know, our account executives

to manage everything from start to end.

So they don't even have, or our
executives don't even have a full year

of having project management assistance.

It's only about six, seven months old.

So, uh, we're, we're like a startup
again, as we keep telling ourselves,

which makes it a little easier,
you know, uh, when things aren't

going, as soon as we know they can,

a little more palatable.

Yeah.

Mm-Hmm.

What are you guys doing?

Roughly like annual revenue?

Just, just so like the listeners
have got like a, a sense of Yeah.

Size.

Yeah.

So we're gonna, we're, we're
gonna close up the year.

We're gonna be just under 5 million
this year, so, um, yeah, last year, 4.7.

So, so, yeah, it's, uh, you know,
we wanted, we wanted this year to

be modest growth over last year and
really, you know, last year was.

Very chaotic.

It just was, you know, we had a, a,
I think it was a 37% growth and on

top of that growth from a revenue
standpoint, just growing a team.

You know, a lot of people who've never
been in this industry joined our team.

And, you know, a lot of, uh,
tripping at times, you know,

which was, was challenging.

But starting, that's starting to hit our
stride or we have a long way to go, but,

um, really starting to hit our stride
and really excited for 2024, I think.

Um, we're not planning for growth in 24.

We'll wanna stay, you know, right in that
5 million range, um, and really work on.

Refining our processes and, um,
working on the profit side of things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Definitely Something I wanna touch on.

Yeah.

Uh, what was your experience like?

You, you're growing, you're bringing in
people from outside the industry, right?

Like, do you feel that's worked
out well for you, or do you feel

like it would be better if you had
people who were actually experienced?

Uh, it's a topic I hear come up quite
a bit in our, in our own group of

like, Hey, I need to hire somebody.

Do I hire somebody who's knows nothing
about signage or do I hire somebody,

try to find somebody who has experience?

Yeah, that's a, that's a a good question.

And I would say the jury's out on that.

Um, you know, there's big
advantages obviously of, of

finding someone of good experience.

And we've got, you know, our, like
our lead designer, Matt, he's been.

You know, in the, in the
industry forever, in some form.

You know, he took a couple diversions
into like working for an ad ad agency.

Um, Kirk, he's been, he's got a
very similar background that I do.

Um, one of our project managers, she
worked for Jones and so she's got,

um, experience, uh, one of our account
executives, Allie, she worked for

another sign company, um, here in the
Madison area as a project coordinator.

Um, so there's, there's
definitely benefit to that.

Uh, there's, you know, it's been nice
with our project manager Lindsay.

Um, you know, when we hired our
project managers, we were very clear.

We don't really even know
what this role means for us to

be a hundred percent honest.

And we're looking for you guys
to not only assist in developing.

The process around project management,
you know, where did the handoffs happen,

but also, you know, actually, you know,
executing on the, on the will itself.

So now there's also on the other
side, it's nice to bring people in

and develop 'em, um, from scratch.

And, and it's not like any one we brought
in would have, you know, they've usually

got construction background or, you
know, welding or fabrication background.

And so you, you do have a little bit
of a learning curve just to kind of

help 'em understand, especially like
on the fabrication side, you know,

like the fit and finish expectations
we've got out there right now.

You know Adam Federman, who's our
shop supervisor, um, he's a literally

a, a, a world class car builder.

He worked for a, a.

A company I about 15 minutes, west Europe,
a car building company, and they want cma.

So I mean, he's got a very
high level of expectation.

And so it's kind of like, Hey,
we understand that, but we're

building signs, you know?

Um,

yeah.

Yeah.

So there's some, so it is not like
you're bringing in people that are

not, like they, they have experience
just not necessarily in signage.

Right, exactly.

Yeah.

And that same with the on the field crew,
you know, and they're, they're really hit

their stride now, and that's just in a,
within a year, you know, a year or two.

So, I don't know, man, I don't know
which ones, which one's better.

Um, I think they both have
value, uh, in certain ways.

Yeah.

I, and there's, I don't think
there's, there's necessarily

a right or wrong answer.

It's Sure, right.

Just a, a, a question I
thought was interesting.

Yeah, that's come up.

Hey, like, Hey, hey, the, the fit
and finish really comes through.

Uh, and if you're listening to this
right now and you're on your computer

or you're on your phone, hopefully
you're not driving, but if you go to

their website, make signs, not war.com
and, and just take a look at their

projects, just to kind of give you
context of what we're talking about.

But I, I wanted to like
transition into like this, this

concept of art versus business.

I, I didn't know how to frame it
when I was putting together the

notes, but, uh, about the time.

I, I would say it was probably about the
same time that you were coming up, right?

Like, uh, mid two thousands, like all
the equipment was getting super cheap.

Like, it, it, to me, I was in the
business around the, the same time of,

uh, a little bit after you, but like.

It felt like the whole industry kinda
shifted to, like, how, how much square

footage of signage can we print?

Or just like, how much stuff can we
push out the door versus, you know,

hey, like you look at hand lettering
and foil and, and like carving and,

and all these things that kind of
like took a seat during that time.

Yeah.

Um,

yeah, I mean that, that, yeah, go ahead.

Uh, no, I was gonna say is that, you know,
growing up, well, I won't say growing up,

but getting your feet under you in the
industry under vital signs, obviously like

helped push you in that direction, but it,
like, it is clear looking at your work.

Like you guys focus heavily on,
like, this is really well designed.

It's like there's an art focus to it.

Like, what's your take on just like.

Like that era, like have you
seen a shift back to like the

craftsmanship in the industry?

Like Yeah.

You know, just what's your take over
the last 10, 20 years of the industry?

Yeah, definitely.

It's, that's a great question.

Um, and, and it's one that has come
up often and, and you know, just

around here in terms of, you know,
talking with the team and helping 'em

understand a little bit of the history
of the company and, you know, some of

the culture and the, the core values.

One of our core values is that we
honor our trades, tradition traditions.

Um, because I do think
that's so important.

I know that, you know, like you said
in that two thousands, 2005 on when I

started Sign Art Studio, I think there
was a, the Dark Ages honestly of, of

signages, like digital printers, you
know, that became a, a big thing.

And also like red channel letters
everywhere, because I think,

yeah, red, LED was the cheapest, I
think when LED started coming out.

I remember that.

And so everything was like red channel
letters and you know, I don't, I

can't pinpoint a hundred percent when
the, the shift started to happen.

And, and I don't know if it was more,
'cause we never really got into that.

That just wasn't, I wasn't interested
in it, but it did seem like probably,

you know, out after the, you know,
2008, 2009, 2010, I'd say, right?

In 2010, 11 and on, um,
things started to shift.

People wanted something that was not that.

And I think the pendulum sw, you know, I
don't know if it's the hipster, whatever

generation, you know, like, we're like,
Hey, we don't want this crap, you know?

Can, can we correlate that
back to like the price of PBR?

Maybe, like, we'll have, we'll have
to go back in there, look at numbers.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, definitely there were, there
was a shift in, uh, I think also then a

shift in our mentality here as we, you
know, were starting to, uh, get more of a

footprint and some credibility, but always
wanting to come from that traditional

foundation that I had, you know, with,
with letterheads and sign painting, we

weren't painting signs all the time, but
from a design standpoint, good design, um,

let's look at different materials to use.

And once I kind of broke out of that,
you know, sign painter type mentality

and graphics, because we did a ton of
trunk lettering, you know, which was,

they were a blast, you know, it would be
a combination of hand lettering, vinyl,

and striping airbrushing, you name it.

But once I kind of explored more and we
got more into this architectural stuff,

the whole whole world opened out, you
know, fabrication, welding, uh, you know,

stainless aluminum natural wood finishes.

And so I think it just was the
right, it was a good timing for it.

And certainly in, in Madison, you
know, it's a, a, a creative town

with creative individuals and I
think our product fit well with

the market here, and we're offering
something that nobody else really was.

You know, at the time, two big
sign shops went down in 2008 to

2010, you know, and they were,
they've been around for a long time.

And so once that happened, there
was no other UL listed electrical

sign manufacturers in our area.

Uh, there is one, there is one,
um, Wisconsin signing graphics.

Good dudes.

They're, I think they're a two
person shop, but for what we were

doing and, and where we're going,
we didn't have any competition for

actually fabricating, um, in our shop.

We have some competition that,
you know, they're brokers,

um, and that has their place.

But, so yeah, I don't know.

It it, we started offering
something a little different.

Um, just a little bit of a, a
tweak on, on what else is going on.

And it's working needs, needs, like
I said, we're working on the profit

part, but the rest is working well.

Well, I, yeah, man.

Uh, you know, I think a lot of us got into
this industry for like, the craft of it.

Like, Hey, I could build cool stuff.

And I, and I hate to see like, when shops
lose that and it's just like a, a focus

on like the business side of it, because
it is, to me, this is a personal industry.

Like, you know, I'm always, you
know, and it, it came through when

we were talking with Dan Ky Yeah.

Of like.

How can I one up myself?

Like, I'm not competing with anybody else.

It's like, how can, how are
we gonna one up ourselves or,

or our peers, uh, for that's

a, that is another, and it's important
that, you know, I'll, I'll speak on

this because I, I, I've spoke about
this at the shop here, is I want if a,

if a, if a sign nerd walks up to our
signs, I want them to be like, oh, okay.

That's, that one's legit.

They did a nice job on this.

You know, so I'm, we're building
for ourselves and then also

probably for our peers, you know?

Um, right on, right on.

Keep it, keep, it keeps everybody
aligned on a common goal, right?

Like if you're, if you are getting
business from other clients because of

your craftsmanship, that's one thing.

But if you're getting it from technicians,
sign makers, your peers, you know, from

shops or even your own shop, I mean, it's
really good to get that level of, uh.

Satisfaction.

I have a quick question,
um, for, for you here, Dan.

And, and this is kind of going back to uh,
just something that you briefly mentioned

maybe like five or six minutes ago, and
that's bring you bringing people in.

That are green in the industry and kind
of bringing them into your team here.

Uh, and yes, I mean obviously
everybody really wants to try and

find a level of experience when they
are hired, but what is it that you do

in your, in your business, um, with
your team to onboard a new employee?

How do you train them?

What are your methods?

What do you, what do you like to
do, uh, when, in any role, for that

matter, whether it's a designer, a,
a production specialist, um, I was

just taking a look at your website.

You got a lot of people on your team
in a lot of different departments.

So whether it's a project manager or
an installer, what do, what type of

modules do you have for each particular
role to train somebody in their lane?

That's

a, a great question, Pete.

Uh, majority of it is three words,
uh, trial by fire, um, which,

you know, we're working on that.

It, it's, it's.

I'm glad you brought that up.

And, and I say that half joking, but up
until probably four or five years ago,

that was a hundred percent the case.

We didn't really, we really started
developing process and procedure

probably only six or seven years ago.

And so those of of us who were on
the team that only came on, you know,

within the last two years or, or even
the last year, um, there wasn't much in

the realm of, of modules or training.

It's just dig in and, um, learn as you
go, which is a lot of how I learned.

Um, but I would say, you know, like our,
our project managers, we do have, I mean,

we have spent, I don't know, thousands of
hours, I'm sure on developing a process

and then, you know, something works
and then it doesn't, uh, we tweak it.

But yeah, I would it
more, just more recently.

Um, I would say like on the project
management side, our account executives,

you know, they have, we've got some good
process in place at this point, but, you

know, moving forward, uh, you know, real
training program as something that, you

know, we wanna work harder on for sure.

And I think that right now,
basically shadowing shadow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It seems pretty common.

Yeah, that's common.

We had a guest here, uh, earlier on
in the year and they had a full-time

trainer on staff for all divisions.

I'm not sure if you've heard that.

Uh,

I did.

I listened to that one.

Been.

In the back of my mind a a topic of
conversation, especially when you're

working with an organization with as
many employees as you have that does

the gross numbers that you have that
specializes in the work that you produce.

I mean, it's nothing short of spectacular.

You guys do great work.

Um, you portfolio is amazing.

As a sign maker, as a sign fabricator,
I look at this sort of thing and I'm

like, man, this guy just gets it.

There's some of this work here,
like, uh, this tattoo shop sign

and all the dimension and the level
of design that goes into that,

uh, the materials that were used.

I mean, you just know living outside
the box, like you're not a light

box in sign face type of shop.

You're, you're the type of shop that's
gonna take that, that level of design

and, and really make your stamp, make
your mark in your own community there.

But with, with that, and I'm gonna
push back on Bryant here a little bit.

We don't often disagree on something,
but this is a point where I do disagree.

Okay.

This business, this business is
founded upon the graphic design.

Mm-Hmm.

Quality craftsmanship, right?

Yeah.

This industry back, you can go
all the way back to the wild West.

There were sign shops.

Okay.

Absolutely.

There were shops that
were hand painting signs.

This industry has been around for
generations, so it's founded upon

a craft, an art, the artisan skill.

But here in today's day and age,
especially with all the technology

that we have in front of us, uh,
now with things like what you could

do with AI and Photoshop, I mean,
it's, it's revolutionizing, it's

revolutionizing our industry, but it is.

Taking the artistry out
of it to some extent.

I think there will be a lot of people
that would disagree with that statement.

But there it's, it is impacting that.

But what it's not impacting
is the business side.

And the business side is the ugly
hat of, well, one of the many

hats we all wear as owners, right?

It's the right, we have to take
a margins, we have to take a

look at those percentage points.

Where can we improve upon, uh,
where are the inefficiencies?

Where are the easy, low hanging fruit
mark margins that we can improve upon?

To put more profit in our business.

And, and one of those areas that
I often talk about is training

because it's not something, in my
opinion that you should do one time.

It's not something that you
should be doing once a year.

It's something that you should be,
it's more of like a mindset, like

what are you, what is your team doing
each and every day to become better?

Whether that's taking a class, going for,
you know, going for a training class.

Now, what are those areas of
improvement that you can learn

from throughout the year?

There has to be some sort of, uh, in
order to get to a shop like you, at your

level, you have to have some sort of.

Continuing, uh, continuing
training for your employees,

but not necessarily just there.

It's how they get started too.

If you're spending money on an employee
and we all know what that feels

like, that is not performing because
they're just taking a little bit of

time to ramp up, to get familiar with
your processes, to get familiar with

your software, the, the, the, the,
your system workflow, if you will.

It takes time.

Even me, if I, if I was hired to
come work with you, it would take

me a certain period of time to
get acclimated to your systems.

And I, I like to think it wouldn't
take very long, but it could

take longer than I might think.

Yeah, right.

But the, so, so again, we're,
we'll come back to your ownership

hat here, Dan, for a moment.

Yeah, absolutely.

Do you think that, is
this where we disagree?

Yeah, because I think that
this is about business.

I think that there is some
pieces that you have to put your

business hat on and forget about.

Yeah.

We, we make great, amazing products
and services and, you know,

we love our community, right?

We love our clients and, you know,
wherever, wherever the profit lands, the

profit lands, like no, let's, let's be a
little bit more strategic about it, right?

Training, onboarding, uh,
profit and loss management.

These are all pieces of making a more
profitable company so that you can grow

the company so that you can maybe bring
on additional labor, additional equipment,

additional areas to bring in revenue.

You cannot bring on another
salesperson, another five salespeople.

Bring on a sales fleet of vehicles
that are wrapped for your brand

and go drive around, right?

You can't do that if there's
no money in the till.

So I don't know if I a hundred percent
agree with Brian saying like, ah, is,

this is where people get confused.

It's mostly about being, you know,
awesome artists and not business owners.

Like let, don't No, no, no, no, no.

That's not what I'm, that's
not what I'm saying, man.

And I'm saying that's why most
people get into the industry, right?

Like, yeah.

Not like, Hey, I, I'm make a business
amazing business out of this.

It's like, Hey, I can build cool
stuff and get paid to do that.

And Yeah, well that's, we're
talking about Origins like,

well that's funny.

That's how it starts though.

That's how it starts.

Because you got into this business
as a designer, thinking you're gonna

be a great design designer, but
you, that, that doesn't necessarily

mean you're gonna be a great owner.

So,

I

mean, this is, yeah, this is exactly
the, I don't wanna say crux, but

almost every damn trade related
business that's started is because.

That individual thought that
they could do a better job than

the place that they weren't.

Right.

And oh, yeah.

The barber that thought they could be,
he could cut hair better than his boss.

Like Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely.

It's, it's, it's a, it's a line right
out of the E-Myth method, right?

So, yep.

Exactly.

You're a technician, you're a
technician, and you're jumping into a

business because you think you could
do your job better than your boss.

But really, I'm not saying, I'm
not criticizing you, Dan, at all.

I'm not, and I don't wanna go on
a, on a tangent here too far away

from the question, but the, you're,
you have a successful business.

You employ a lot of people.

You do, you do amazing work.

But what are the areas that your shop can
improve upon to add to the bottom line?

That's a very simple way
of asking the question.

And so, and I want you to focus
on the business side, not the, not

the artisan side of the business.

Well, let, let me also let, let's, what
I will also add to this conversation

and, and clarify is we have a very robust
cost tracking, um, systems in place that

really finally started kind of getting
on plane in the last quarter of 23 here.

Um, but we've been, been
working on it for quite a while.

So we do have systems in place.

We have monthly managers meetings.

Um, we do wip, we do work in a full work
in process schedule, um, every month.

And so we have Hey,

Pete, like you, you would
shit at their schedule, dude.

Pete would geek out on it.

Yeah.

Like, like if you show
'em the spreadsheet.

Yeah.

And I, I have it pulled up and I
can here in a second, but yeah, so

we have, we have that, we have this
labor capacity planning tool that.

Um, that Bryant was just mentioning.

Our team works with most of our
team works with a business coach.

Um, we're actually in 24 'cause
I couldn't, everywhere I looked

and everywhere I turned it's
EOS traction, EOS traction.

So we actually are, are
onboarding that and 24.

So in, in terms of the foundational
business aspect of the company,

that is an area obviously when
I started this, I didn't, didn't

pay any attention to it all.

But that started probably seven years
ago, I would say seven, eight years ago.

Um, where we got serious about that
and it's taken all of that time to

get to where we are in a lot of trial
by fire, what's working, what's not.

So there we do have those
foundations, um, in place now.

And also one of our core
values is we are profitable.

So that is something that is extremely
important and also is that, you know,

where do you draw the line between
what you're passionate about and

your craft and, and that bottom line.

And that is something that we have
been up against for the, certainly

the last probably, well, I'd say
it started, you know, when Covid

started, um, because right around then
we started growing the company is,

you know, to where we're at today.

So we have those in place now in
terms of, uh, uh, formatted training.

Um, that is something that we
want to get better at for sure.

You know, like on the sales team,
you know, my wife joined on two

years ago, sales is her background.

So she runs the client experience
department and they have their

weekly huddles and, you know,
go through their forecasts.

Um, so it's not like it.

And this is a bunch of people
running around without structure and.

Or anything like that.

It is very much a company, it is very
much, uh, needs to be profitable.

Uh, we are keep a close eye on our direct
build time versus our overhead time and,

you know, so there's a a ton of huge, big
positive shifts that, that have happened

in the last couple years in that regard.

Uh, but I think the area, certainly
where we, we feel or fell short or,

or falling short is what is that, um,
regimented training or improvement.

Um, what does that look like?

And I think we're gonna be delving
into that with more consistency

as we onboard this EOS system.

You know, over the next, you
know, well 24 and beyond, digging

into what, what the issues are.

And we do, we do this, it's, you know,
with our managers meetings, um, we got QC.

Stuff in place, um, you know,
for every, every department.

So it's there, it's just, it's, it's in
what I would consider a startup phase

where we're, we're understanding now
what it's like to be a company versus a

shop that quite frankly feels like was
leisurely making signs back in the day.

It wasn't that, but where we're at
now goes, is where we were then.

It feels like that.

So yeah, it's not just, it's not just
a, um, couple people, you know, in a

club hanging out, making signs anymore.

It's, it's, this is, this is the
real deal and it's high stakes,

um, you know, with all the people
we have and the families that rely

on, on the decisions that are made.

So, I don't know if I answered
your question, Pete, a hundred

percent, but at least wanted to.

Let you know that there's quite
a bit of, of foundation to

what we're doing right now, so

Yeah.

Yeah.

I I don't think, and you don't get to
5 million if you, if you don't have

some of those things.

That's exactly, that's exactly
the point I was trying to say.

Yeah.

It, it wasn't implying that you
were not, it was saying, you,

you need to be doing something.

And I would love to know what that was.

And I got a lot of nuggets there,
and I think our listeners are too.

I mean, not every shop, not every shop
that we, that listens to us is, is

at 4 million as quickly as you did.

As quickly as you got there.

Yeah.

And, and not everybody has the same story.

And I'm, and I'm on your website
and reading what your story is.

I'm trying to get a little bit
of more of a backstory here.

But you have to have processes,
you have to be focused on profit.

It seems like you have, um,
an EOS focus, which is, I.

Right up my alley and
really happy to hear about.

Yeah.

Uh, what, what is, let's, let's
talk about that for a minute.

Is that a focus for next year?

Is that something that you've
kind of brought on late this year?

Talk to me a little bit about that.

Yeah,

yeah.

So it's funny, you know, I have my
business books and podcasts and, well,

audio books I'll say, I, I reading, uh, an
actual book puts me to sleep immediately.

But I have been interested in, in
that listening one that was hugely

impactful, was good to great.

Um, that was, I read that on
don't know, probably six or seven

years ago that had a big impact.

Uh, the one thing, um, podcast and then
also the book by, I think Gary Keller,

I think is the guy that Keller say.

So that's always, you know, as we've
really started to decide to grow this

company, um, you know, something that.

Has been important for me to learn the
business side because I, I've been a,

a, a craftsman, you know, most of this
journey up until the last few years.

So, and then a associated of mine,
a friend of mine, he recommended

this book Traction probably a
year and a half, two years ago.

And I'll be honest, I, I was listening
to it and I got about 30 minutes in.

I'm like, this is rookie shit.

I don't need this.

We're way past this.

We have these things in place.

So I didn't listen to it.

I didn't finish it.

And then, um, and we had a, a cash flow
issue towards the end of last year.

That was a scary moment for, for me
and, and my wife and all of us here.

Um, and I circled back to traction.

I'm like, oh my God.

Like, whoa, whoa.

Back up Dan.

We have so far to go.

And so yeah, just probably in the last
couple months, um, getting serious,

working with our coach in terms of him,
um, putting kind of the structure together

to kind of lead our, our team with this.

Um, and we have a dashboard built out
and so yeah, we work, we work with

him and we just started digging in.

Um, so yeah, that's, I'd say,
yeah, end of the, by the end of

the first quarter, I think the 24.

We wanna have found a, some rhythm to it,
you know, the, the meeting, um, meeting

rhythm and just getting digging in.

We've always done, like I said,
we've always had some form of this

through our coach that we work with.

Um, but I think, you know, really
excited with this exact structure because

it really, I traction in that red.

What the heck is EOS, you know, you
have where you guide to traction.

And it's really just a,
an easy format to follow.

And so that's what I
really liked about it.

Some of these business books and,
and, and theories and all that stuff,

can, it can just get, it can get
too deep almost in this, something

about the way EO put together Yes.

Just makes it really chewable.

Um, so yeah, that, that's
where we're at with it.

Pete,

what do you, uh, as an owner and having
read the book myself and apply it to

many different businesses, but in your,
how do you apply it to your business?

Do you have an idea of what people
are gonna be in those seats and

who's gonna be leading those teams?

Yeah.

Well, we already have, you know, we
have a, we have an organizational chart.

We've had one for a number of years, and
it gets updated as more people come on.

Um, you know, everybody's, most
everybody's got a job description.

Um, so it's, it's taking what we already
have in place, um, and kind of filtering

it through, you know, the EOS, you know,
that, that system, um, and tweaking what

we already have in place, basically.

But I think the, what I'm really
looking forward to is finding a rhythm

to actually solving, you know, some
of these challenges that we face.

There's so much that happens in
our, you know, our managers being,

we talk about these things, right?

And there's a lot of talk and,
but getting it implemented,

um, has always been a struggle.

Um, and we've had a lot of successes, but,
you know, a lot of times we have a lot

of failures in, in some of this as well.

So I think for me it's the format of
it, um, taking what we already have

in place, uh, like our company values.

I'm just going through
again and reevaluating.

We don't have a defined mission.

You know, um, so that's another
one that I'm, I'm excited to, you

know, put down, put down on paper.

You know, I have, it's in my
head and how we get that out.

So,

um, that's a, that's a fun one to
always try to articulate after so many

years in the, the business, right?

Like, yeah.

When you're first starting out, you
don't really realize like, hey, like

you're driven by something, right?

Yeah.

But like, when you have 28 people on
staff, or you have 50 people, like,

that mission becomes like the, the
underlying driver of, of just about

everything that you guys do, right?

It's gotta come back to that.

Yeah.

And it, it's, you know, the other thing
too is just, is ultimately getting a

hundred percent clarity on, on what we
do want, what the future does look like.

Uh, you know, I, you know, there's a, a
very common conversation with the company

is as a goal of $10 million a year, but
then also I'm like, well, what, what is.

Why is that the goal?

You know, why is it 10?

What's magic about 10 million versus
doing the type of work we wanna do, having

the profit margins that we wanna have.

Um, you know, because when, when
you have that, that trifecta of,

um, are you the best around at it?

Um, are you passionate about it and are
you making money doing it, then what

more really do you need in the end?

Um, and so that's a, that's a thing
that I have to get clear on, you know,

my wife and I is, what do we want
out of this, you know, five years,

10 years, 15 years down the road?

Um, so we can really get, get clear
and get everybody in line with that.

We already do have client classifications,
um, C through A plus through C.

We have S type classifications
that we, we put together as well,

so we can start to understand.

Okay.

So, you know, we know the type
of clients we wanna work with.

How many of those clients
do we actually work with?

Uh, we know the type of
signs we want to build.

Um, how many of those signs are we
building and, and are we profitable,

you know, with those types of signs?

And the interesting thing is the
ones that we enjoy the most doing

for the most part, are the ones
that we're the most profitable and

yet we continue to take work that
we're not terribly interested in.

Um, you know, so there, it's all part of
what I'm excited about onboarding, EO Ss,

we have all this great data collected.

We haven't done much to arrange it.

So the other one I'm
excited about is scorecard.

Uh, what type of information we're
gonna be, um, putting together for that.

So, so, yeah, I think, uh, man,

yeah.

Lots of stuff to unpack there.

Uh, yes.

Hey, I, I love the mindset
of like, like, hey, why, why

do we need to hit 10 million?

Because it is, it is almost that
same treadmill that we have on

like the consumer side of it.

Like, Hey, we want a bigger
house, we want a better car.

We want all this stuff.

But like, you apply that so many
owners that we talk to apply

it to business as well of like,
Hey, I gotta get to a million.

What do you, are you just gonna
stop when you get to a million?

Like, are, are, what happens the
day you hit a million dollars

in sales in your sign shop?

Do you just automatically go in
confetti falls from the sky and

everything is gravy at that point?

No, it's, it's more of the same, right?

Yeah.

It's the, it's the next step.

So like, when, when is enough?

Enough?

Um, and I'm glad to hear that you're.

Like that's top of mind for you right now?

Yeah.

What's, what, what really
is, is top of mind, you know?

And, and as I have gone through and,
and re-looking at our, our company

values, um, and rearranging, first
and foremost is, is we have fun.

And number two is we are profitable.

And that is the mo I we need to have fun.

And I think a lot of times, well,
for us it's just the last couple

years anyway, um, you know, letting
that, uh, that business because

you need the numbers, right?

Like Peter's saying, you need,
need to understand your company.

And, um, that in all, in all honesty,
was something that I never imagined that

I would have to be paying attention to.

I was gonna have a couple persons
sign up and that was that.

And so there's been, you know, a lot of
stress, you know, over the last few years.

One thing that's been been interesting
that I've been learning about myself

is, and this is just in the last couple
months, and, you know, I don't, I

don't want to be a, a Debbie Downer,
but my father-in-Law passed away,

um, fairly recently and unexpectedly.

And he was this, oddly enough assigned
painter, um, had his own shop, and

it, there was a, it was a, pardon my
French, but like, chill the fuck out.

Like what?

Like, have fun.

Look at the industry you're in.

Look what you get to do on a daily basis.

And so how are we getting our
team aligned with that too?

Because everybody cares so much, right?

But when a shit hits the
fan, it's just, it's ugh.

But we've always figured out a, a solution
to every problem that we've run into.

We have managed to make our
customers happy most every time.

Um, like, we'll figure it out.

So what's been interesting is, is
I have been working more on the

business in the last couple years.

Just in the last couple months I've been
like, had to go out and I did some reverse

hand painted lettering on glass for a
customer on their storefront windows.

Um, I was in the shop building sign
over the weekend last fabricated

aluminum neon hand lettering.

When I get to do the thing that I got
into this for and get to have that

outlet, my mind, it's cathartic for me.

And so I now 24, I need that
because when my mind can, it

becomes a zen moment for me.

Not to sound corny, but if I'm
lettering a sign, I'm not thinking

about anything in that moment.

You know, I'm listening to a podcast room,

everything else shuts off.

Yeah.

And the, the quality of my
decision making increases.

I'm able to show up better for my team.

Um, so that's, uh, I know I kind
of diverted a little bit, but that

working back in the business, which
I think in some ways is a little

bit of like, what do you mean you
gotta, you're going backwards.

No, I'm not.

I need that.

I need that outlet.

So if I can get 10 hours a week in
the shop or out in the field, um, that

has, and also it's, you know, quite
frankly to let the people know in

the shop that I can build signs too.

I'm not just the guy
sitting in the office still,

still got it.

So I, I think it like this, that
self-awareness man is crucial.

And, and like, how many guys
have we talked to in, in the

group, Pete, that are like.

Hey, I need all these processes.

I, I need to learn how
to be a better manager.

Yeah.

And, and it's just like, you know,
I, I've talked to several guys that

are like, Hey, I need to, to figure
this side of the business out.

Like, I, I need to, Hey, there's been
several people that we're gonna buy

a franchise just for the processes
side of it that I've talked to.

Yeah.

Like they've already got a successful
business, but they're getting ran over

by it and at, and at some level, right.

You're, it's okay to not be like,
Hey, I'm not a middle manager or

I'm not an operations manager.

Like, you can admit that to yourself, but
it's, and you could be okay with, like,

you've taken the steps, like you've gone
full circle and now you'd know for, for

my stress levels, for, for me personally
and for me to be a better owner, like

I, I need, I need to get my hands
dirty once in a while, and that's okay.

Right?

Yeah.

But you, you've also got the other
pieces in place to be able to do that.

And the, the message here that I would
say to everybody is like, if you have

the self-awareness to know, like,
yes, I'm the owner of this business.

Yes, I still love to make signs,
but I, I don't necessarily

want to be a the manager.

Like, I don't wanna manage the whole team.

Like, it's okay.

Like, yeah, hire somebody to
manage operations, like take

steps towards that person.

Don't just spin your wheels and say, Hey,
I need to get better about processes.

Like, if you know yourself well,
you know, hey, and you know you're

not gonna make progress on it.

Hire a coach, you know.

When did, when did you guys
start working with a coach Dan?

Um,

I think this probably five years ago now.

Four or five years ago.

Um, it was a, well no god time.

There's, I don't know about you
guys, but it's about a two year

vacuum and time from about.

Late 20 19, 20 20 to 2022 ish.

Um, so yeah, probably five years ago now
we started working with a coach and that

was through, um, the One thing podcast.

So I reached out through their format
or through, you know, whatever, one

of the links I've been podcast and got
connected with, with Dave, Dave Goodall.

And so, yeah, that's, you know, that's
kind of when it all really got momentum.

You know, I wrote like a manifesto
on the customer experience.

I remember digging in on, in, in, on that.

And really kind of, that was
kind of the start of, of, of it.

And then, uh, also my dad
worked here for about six years.

Um, and he's got a business background
and, and leading up to that, you know,

he, we'd meet once a month, he'd come up
to the shop and we'd talk about things.

So all that, you know, developing
the business side of it.

I said I was probably seven, eight
years old, 6, 7, 8 years old.

And that was really my core focus and
every day further and further away

from building science, from designing
science, from being out in the field.

And, and that's the
natural progression, right?

Of, of, you know, becoming more of
a leader, um, and showing up for

your people in that regard versus,
you know, being a, a technician.

But like I said, I'm finding that I
need that outlet that's really, I'd

like to make things with my hands.

That's what, you know, what, what brings
me the greatest amount of, greatest

amount of satisfaction and allows me
to be better for my people and show up

because I, you know, I'm a, I've got
high expectations and, um, you know,

so having that outlet has been, or,
or realizing that I need that outlet,

I guess as of late, um, has been.

Been good.

Definitely.

Yeah.

That's great, man.

Well, I was just gonna say the other
thing too about process, right?

Um, the other day I've just kind of
like, there, there is a time when the

process should be and can be diverted.

And when we built such rigid walls
everywhere, um, process can, at

times I feel, anyway I've learned is
it can stifle, it can make it more

inefficient, um, in certain ways.

And so that's another big push in 24 is
how do we define, you know, when, when

are we gonna script the process, right?

Because our, this company is so built
and tuned around, you know, and more

complex fabrication type projects,
you know, so when like a door vinyl

job comes in, it's like, you know,
like we're a, we're a battleship.

Going down a little creek, it just
doesn't, you know, that offset

doesn't, it's a good analogy.

Doesn't work, uh, all that well.

You know, and then at times, you
know, I think process can be used

to like, you're doing it wrong,
you know, follow the process.

And so where's the balance in all that?

And I think that's something that I'm
eager, 'cause we've gotten so almost

robotic in, in certain ways, um,
that that can bite you the ass too.

You know, if you're not, if you're so
rigid all the time and you, you can't be

a little bit flexible when you need to be.

You know, that can make things
not as, as far as they could be.

A former

colleague of mine, uh, Don, I don't know
if you're listening to this, but she

used to say there was the processes.

Then there was the process for managing
the processes and knowing like when

shit needs to go or when to, you know,
create new processes, adapt those things.

And I, I definitely agree with you
because like, I love systems and

processes like, but like, if it doesn't
make sense to me, like I just, I,

like I don't adhere to it at all.

I know

that that's, yeah.

And then I'll get, you know,
and we'll develop this thing.

Everybody will have their input and
then we'll, we'll make the bible,

whatever the thing is, is it a tweak
on a change order process or warranty

or, or service jobs or whatever.

And then something will land in my lap
with some, say it's a, something that

might require, uh, a warranty card.

We'll call it warranty
card, because we use Trello.

So there's the card, the card thing.

Um, and I'm like, no, we
don't need to set up the card.

It's five minutes.

Someone's in the area.

I noticed that a screw backed out
on a panel sign on the outside

of the building, just put a note
together so they know what to do.

But we do not need to filter this
through three different people.

Our accountant doesn't need
to like do a journal entry to

build a warranty to field ops.

It's just, we'll take
five minutes, you know?

So it's like that kind of stuff.

How do we, how do we, we find, how do
you, how do you map it out too, so that

there's some consistency, you know?

But Pete, what are you, what are
your, you know, I, I know that from

listening to podcasts, you, 'cause
you also do consulting work for

other sign companies as well, right?

And, and some of this world we're
talking about right now, you know,

that that delineation between the
process and the follow the process.

But when does it make sense
and when doesn't, and you know,

it's something that we've run up
against, certainly challenges.

'cause then people are like, this
is a process she must follow.

You know,

uh, let me give, let me give you
my two, two answers to that, okay?

Okay.

Um, if you were one of my clients and you
came to me with, we have some processes.

We have Trello.

God, I hate Trello, but it is what

it is, but best we got, right?

So it's, it's so freaking

easy to use.

It's super easy to use.

It is super easy to use.

And you know what?

I, I, I just, I, it is what it is.

It's not a big deal, but you're

using, it's better than our paper
tickets that we had on the wall.

You

know what?

I will agree with that.

It's better than your plastic
jackets and, and pen and paper.

So I will agree with that.

If you have a process that identifies
what happens when this happens, okay?

Yep.

So, so I, uh, gosh, you, you
kind of, you kind of took me by

surprise with this question, so
I'm gonna kind of go backwards.

What I would say to you is that in my.

Process by which I would
help you create in your shop.

There would be at some point a divide,
a front of the house conversation

and a back of the house conversation.

Sure.

And then your process,
your process is built.

Like when a lead comes in, you
know, this person is handling

it, what is the call to action?

What is the appropriate
action for who is taking it?

And that's going to lead
into like an EOS question.

You know, like, who's gonna
handle that responsibility?

What are the unit of
measures for that individual?

What is their, what is their, uh,
record of performance going to be?

How many appointments
do they need to make?

How many phone calls do they need to make?

How many dials do they need to have?

What have you?

Sure.

But when you're architecting the,
the workflow of this, which is how

I would recommend doing it, I would
actually, uh, Brian and I do this a lot.

We, we, we, we get like a Figma
account and we start mapping out like.

The architecture of a, of a workflow
in shapes and colors and arrows and

all sorts of yes, no logic, right?

When this happens, this is what's
going to happen When it doesn't,

this is what happens next.

This is the campaign that
they get thrown into.

This is this, this is the
drip campaign that we do.

This is how we text the customer, like we
infuse marketing over operations so that

it works in unison with your operation.

So that's the backstory of, of, of
what I would tell you to do in terms

of building out your processes, but a
little bit more just quick overview.

But in the instance where a customer calls
and says, Hey, I need something done.

Doesn't really matter what it
is, that takes five minutes.

That is a, to me, that gets handled
in the first step of your process that

doesn't make its way to three people, that
makes its way to the first person that

qualifies the customer, that qualifies
the want or need of that individual

and communicates it to the right
department head to handle the project.

It doesn't need to have its own jacket,
it doesn't need to have its own workflow.

It may mean you stopping there on
the way home, on the way, uh, to your

home at the end of the day, and I.

With a screw gun and taking care of that
one little screw that's loose, right?

It, that, that might be what it is.

And it never needs to make its
way into the ecosystem, but it

does need to be communicated.

So the challenge would be, is it getting
communicated to the right individual?

That's, that's the winning ticket.

That's the process by which your,
the person, when your phone rings

ring, ring, hi, this is Peter.

Yes, yes.

We make that sign.

No, we don't make that sign.

Yes, you are a customer.

I wanna make happy.

No, you're not a customer.

I wanna make happy.

That is the, that person doesn't hand it
to the next individual without qualifying.

That lead, that qualifying that,
that, that, that opportunity.

Okay.

So to me that's in your process.

I.

Which I don't know much about, but that
is where that problem would be handled.

It handled at that very first point.

Oh my God, I got, I got my
sign just blew out of the face.

Uh, we, okay, that's
something I need to address.

That's, Hey, I've been there.

I've been, that's a
little more than a screw.

I've been, that's more than a screw.

That's than a screw.

I've been there.

But that, but I'm using that
as an example for a reason.

That would definitely require
another card, another jacket,

another team meeting, what have you.

Hi, my sign appears to have a screw loose.

Can you come and fix it?

Is something that does not
need to go through the workflow

of your, of your standardized

process.

Yeah.

And that's where I think the,
the challenge obviously is the

process that we have in place.

And we do, um, you know, every
new inquiry does get qualified.

So we have that, that
type of stuff in place.

So it's more along the way, uh, how
do we define this in a way that makes

sense so that in the end you have,
we have clarity and we're not gonna,

we're not gonna lose money on it.

Like what Those are the two, like you
need the information and information.

Can we get it done with the budget
that the client has or the, you

know, whatever the scenario may be.

And how do you define that?

You know, the if and when, um, you
know, if it, is it something like,

hey, if it, if, if, if it's a, if
it's not a net zero, what do they

call that in, like, emissions, right?

The, if it's not a, I don't know if
I'm, if this is gonna articulate net

zero carbon, zero, net zero at the end
of the, at the end of this particular

scenario, if you go through all the
process of creating a warranty card.

It's gotta get, we do, like, we bill
it, the warranty to a particular

department so we can track that
and understand what's going on.

If it needs to touch that many hands for a
five minute thing, how do you to find that

in a way so it's clear for, you know, the
people that are making these decisions.

And I think that's the tough part.

All the rigid process that we have
in place is there for a reason.

And when the process is followed,
for the most part it works.

But

these, I don't actually think
it's that, I don't think that

this part is that complicated.

This part is just taking
it, it, it really is you.

Right?

If you are the, the, the, the chef of
the kitchen, the captain of the ship

really does require you to sit down
and create a yes no chart, right?

Yeah.

Uh, we can call it whatever you want.

You call it a playbook.

You call it a manual, you call it,
you can, you put it into like a

tra type of setting if you want,
but it's really just a document.

This is the type of customer we want.

This is one that we, if we,
is it an existing client?

Yes or no?

If it's an existing client, we want
it, we want it to be qualified.

Right.

That's a simple answer.

So if it's somebody that bought a sign
from you that has an issue with your sign,

it needs to, this is a yes, this is a yes.

Pass through.

Right?

And where do all those challenges go to?

Does it go to a project manager?

Does it go to the directly to the owner?

Does it go up the chain, however
you define that, or does it, or does

it go through your normal process?

I think that's just a simple yes no chart.

You don't need something complex.

You don't need, you don't need a 30 page,
you know, drawing of what this defined.

These are the, these are
the projects that we do.

This is the clients that
we, that we sell to.

If it's a, if it's any
of these, it's a yes.

If it's 10 lawn signs, probably not.

If it's 10,000 lawn signs.

Oh.

I'll consider it, I'll consider it.

Sure.

But if it's, you know, is it a school?

Is it a, is it for a birthday?

I'm not interested in birthdays.

I'm not interested in
baby announcement signs.

I'm interested in signs that I'm going
to make a staple with, and that that

can honestly be left for interpretation.

But you do need to then maybe
say, we'll do illuminated signs,

dimensional signage post in panels.

You might give, you could
spell it out if you want.

Yeah.

But that's that how detailed you wanna be.

That's up

to you.

Yeah.

And we've got, we've, so we've,
I've put together this client

classification and sign classification.

We got examples and, and
defined, you know, for each

of these types of scenarios.

Um, we know what we, what the signs
we want to build, that's for sure.

And so, yeah, it's, it's just,
again, it's in that, um, how do

we keep the process efficient?

You can gain some efficiencies here
versus that every gate all the time.

And I'm like, you know, I, I, and
we run into the suit, we've kind of

shot ourselves in the foot honestly,
in some ways with how our production

packets for our projects are thick.

That's for sure.

What's in, everything's
broken up, what's in them

generally?

Generally, what's in them?

Yeah, so we've got what we call tasking,
which is the beginning is it's kind of

the, the, the roadmap in terms of labor
for each, you know, for fab finishing,

CNC graphics, all that kind of stuff.

So it's a breakdown of that along with
the materials, um, that the pre-production

department is defined for the project.

And then we get into, uh, we have
an overview packet that's just

the pretty picture that the client
signed off on survey information,

any sublet parts, components that
are being ordered for the project.

And then part of the production
packet, um, gets more granular.

Obviously your fab fab details,
um, you know, more granular on

the graphics side of things.

Is it vinyl?

Is it hand Leonard?

Is it a digital print?

Layered?

Vinyl.

Um, and then the paint paint sheet.

Each component, what, you know,
what Pantone, what maths paint code.

Then we have all the actual paint
formulas that get displayed in there.

Assembly and electrical.

So, you know, what's the neon layout,
what's the LED layout, how many

transformers, where the service
switches power coming in and out.

Um, and then the install instructions
page, which is, we try to keep that

specific to what does the install crew
need, what information on those pages.

And so that's all fine and dandy,
but I used to build signs off of

what the client signed off on.

And, and that's not scalable obviously,
but how do we find that balance?

Because there's some creativity
that that can happen in that, right?

Here's what in the end, here's
your, your, um, dimensions, here's

the colors, here's the side view,
here's side A, here's side B.

Um, you need critical
information in there.

Like, is there existing steel pipe?

Where is that location
existing electrical.

But beyond that, and then within
the constraints of this budget

and this list of materials that we
have in inventory, do your thing.

You know, because that's, I think
where we let the individual one have

a little more creativity in their day.

Um, but two, I think gives them a
better understanding of the project

or the product as a whole versus
being almost like part builders.

It's like build part A, build part B,
put part A and part B together, you know?

So sometimes then it's like, if not all
of every single piece of information

is not there, it's like, what do we do?

So, you know, finding some
of the balance in that too.

You know, I, I think is something
that we're interested in.

I I, you know, we're a manufacturer
on paper and we, technically, I

would meet all definitions of it.

We're actually a registered manufacturer
in Wisconsin, but we're also

craftspeople, you know, in, in the end.

And I don't wanna lose that
aspect of, of what we do.

And how do you not lose that aspect of,
of that, of the culture you want, but,

you know, looking at your TPS reports
and your, you know, all your, that,

um, where's the balance in all that?

And can it be.

You know, can you have
your cake and eat it too?

And I think that's what we're, we're
trying to find out as a company is

can we have that, that atmosphere?

Can we have that, you know, motivation
to build the product that we wanna

build and also, you know, have the
numbers that we're looking to have.

Um, so that's, and I think, but there's
also an art to, to that business side.

And that's certainly something that
I've been more motivated to learn and,

and understanding and seeing, getting,
um, fulfillment out of like, you know,

there are days when everything is,
it's like, holy shit, this really, this

really works, you know, the machine.

Um, and you see everybody's happy and
their smiles on everybody's faces.

And so it's, it's there, but how do
you keep that art craft, you know,

and that business in the bottom line?

How do we keep those things, um,
together working in alignment?

I think that's, that's just
where we're at in this current

juncture.

I don't think there's like a,
there's not an easy answer for that.

Right?

I, I think it's something that,
that every shop struggles with at

some point of like, where, where's
the balance between the two?

Right?

Uh, like listening to you talk about it
and, and like hearing Peter's answer,

like, to me it sounds, uh, a lot of
like, you know, I, I'll give you like

a totally different analogy, right?

Um, if you are, like, think of all the,
the trucks that you lettered, right?

You, you had some constraints around that.

Sure.

Of like, Hey, it's a truck.

We, we gotta put something on the truck.

It has to look nice.

We're limited and what we can do, uh,
you know, and, and those constraints.

Like really get the, the creativity
flowing as well of like, yo,

here's the medium mm-Hmm.

Like, how can we embrace that and,
and kind of still be able to deliver

the type of work and like the feeling
that we, we want to get out of it.

Yeah.

Right.

So you can apply that same kind
of constraint to a process or the

business side of it or, or whatever
it is, so that like, hey, here, here's

the things that are non-negotiable.

If, if we take like the
production side of it, right?

These things are non-negotiable,
have to be done inside production.

Um, and then it's just
communication, right?

If, if you're fabricating the sun and
something, you know, you've got a better

way to, to do the interior struts or
something than what we've got specked.

Mm-Hmm.

And like, you, you've got a
better idea as long as it fits

within those constraints like.

Good thing.

Go for it.

Yeah.

Or, or if you take on the
intake side of it, right.

If, if it's gonna cost us, let's say
there's an issue with the sign, right?

Uh, and, and like Peter mentioned,
like having it not go through the full

process, but part of the process is
identifying where it, where it should go.

Like what's the severity of this or,
you know, I, I've even talked to,

to folks that are like, Hey, if it's
gonna cost us less than 50 bucks to

fix this, or a hundred bucks to fix
this for an existing client, sure.

Like, just send, send it to,
you've got full authority.

Do what you need to do to handle it or
get it to the person who can handle it.

Right.

Um, and get it done.

Yeah.

You know, so you just kinda
have to build some of those

constraints into the process.

Yeah.

Will that answer the, the,
the full thing about balance?

You know, probably not, but will it get
you a little further than where you're at

now?

Maybe?

Yeah.

I think that that's what we're looking
for is, is like I said, just in a.

Wrap it all up in a nutshell, we have
really have some great process and

procedure in place that does set us
up for success and, and what it's

completely adhered to from front to back.

For the most part, things work great
and, you know, but how do we have a

little more fun and, and loosen up a
little bit, you know, and, and retain

that clarity of, of information that
is so necessary when you're building

custom things from raw materials from
scratch, you know, in the telephone game.

That can happen.

But yeah, that's also, there's, you know,
there, there's an aspect of fun that

we've had just even, you know, coming
up with the things that normally you

would look at as boring and corporate,
which is process and procedure, you know?

So there has been a, a, a great amount of.

Fulfill that joy that's come from that,
especially when you see it working.

'cause it doesn't always
happen right away.

It's gonna take a while,
see the fruit of that labor.

But yeah,

that's, uh,

that's where we're at.

I think we're, we're in
a really good position.

Um, you know, if we approach it from a, a,
we're a startup again, you know, and we're

only two, three years into it, you know,
this whole team, especially being kind of

built, bootstrapped together, everybody's
really hitting their stride and, and

it's exciting to see and especially
considering the type of work that we're so

fortunate to get to work on it, you know?

So.

Yeah.

I mean, you guys are an amazing spot, man,
and I love that you're pro approaching

it as like, Hey, we're treating this as
a startup, maybe in the editing piece.

Like, we have somebody, like our
editor put the, uh, what was the,

the shop stages model, right?

Like I, about a year ago or so, damn.

Like we put together this model of like.

You're starting out, you're, you're
systemizing, you know, like at the

end of it is like the ideal shock.

Yeah.

Like that, that's, that's
different for everybody, right?

Based on your own, like,
here's how we want to operate.

But like, the theory is, as you grow, you
know, you may be in the middle stage of

like, Hey, we've got our processes down.

You suddenly, you add four people to
the business and a hundred thou, or,

you know, $500,000 in sales, you get
bounced back to like this, this growth

stage of like, Hey, we've got shit to
figure out again, because, 'cause now,

hey, like what worked well at five people
does not work well at 10 or 28 people.

Yeah.

So I, I love that you guys
are approaching it from that.

Aspect.

Yeah.

Do what we can.

Um, if this has been a great conversation,
I, I, I would love to do this all day.

Uh, I've got the kids at home
and my wife will probably beat

me if I carry on too much longer.

But, but if we, uh, transition to
like the future, uh, you know, you've

talked about traction, but, uh, beyond
that, like, you know, the, the things

that you've already discussed, like
what's the, the future for you guys?

What's the future for you and your wife?

You know, personally?

Yeah.

I, what does that look like?

I think, uh, in terms of the company
is really continuing to effort

towards working on the types of
projects that we wanna work on, that

that's the most important thing.

Well, and, and on top of,
just, like I said, let's, let's

have fun while we're doing it.

And I, I do have a goal of 50%, so
43 now, um, 50% of my time involved

in Sign Art Studio by the time I,
I'm 50, so that's a goal I have.

Now what is 50% of my time may
not be 50% of other people's time.

You know how it goes if you're,
you know, you're a business owner.

Um, but I'd like to see myself in
that 20 to 30 hours a week input

by the time I'm 50 years old.

And what that means is, um, you know,
making sure that, um, the structure's

in place, uh, for that to happen and
that there's alignment across the board.

So, like I said, we're, we're
still clarifying what, you know,

our five, well, three and five and
10 year goals are as a company.

But, um, it is certainly not growth
for growth's sake in terms of revenue.

Um, again, I think it's a, a poor
focus on working with the, the

clients we wanna work with and the
type of projects we wanna work with.

I think it is, you know, so much
effort or, or the customer's always.

Right, right.

Uh, or people talk about.

The effect of a bad employee
can have on a company.

There's very little talk, it
seems like, about the effect of,

of a crappy client on a company.

And so I think really making sure
that, that, uh, we've been a part

of it and it is, it, it runs deep.

It really does.

So find, 'cause when you find a
client that you're aligned with,

man, it is just such a different
world how these projects go.

So I think it's a, it's again, more,
um, continuing to work with the, the

clients that we're aligned with, um,
and trying to find more that we're

aligned with and, uh, doing the type of
projects that, that we're aligned with

and not taking the, the work that we're
not, you know, those are the things

that I am clear on.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lemme stop you there.

I, Ellie, I, you know, we always
ask for other advice, but hey,

this is very pertinent, like.

You've got a platform here, and
obviously like, I wanna talk about

your own podcast in just a moment.

But, um, for the shop owners out there,
like what advice would you give them on

working with the right type of clients
or finding the right type of clients?

Because, you know, it seems like you
guys really hit your stride with the,

the type of work and, and, and granted
it is not been easy to get here.

Yeah.

I I don't want to like, do like the DIY
like, hey, here's Dan's business and 30

minutes later, oh, it's freaking amazing.

Right, right.

But like, what, what advice would you, I
feel like that's something that everybody

struggles with of like, Hey, this is the
type of work that we wanna do, right?

This is the work that
we're currently doing.

Mm-Hmm.

These are the type of
clients we wanna work with.

These are the clients that
we currently work with.

Yeah.

Like, is there any like nuggets or,
or like wisdom you could share with

the, the shop owners out there of
like, how you got from point A to

point B or, or, you know, what that.

Yeah, like anything you
can expect out of that?

I, I, well,

one, we're, we're not, uh, we're,
we're not where we want to be yet.

And so I think obviously if you'd ask
any shop owner out there, no matter

what the business is, obviously they're
gonna want to do the type of work they

want to do and work with great clients.

I, I don't think, we're not, we
obviously didn't discover that.

Um, but I, for us, where it started,
um, and so we can start to understand it

better, is, is that we are classifying,
we have a set of standards in place

for, you know, what is an a plus
client, uh, what's an, a client,

what's a B client, what's a C client?

We've done the same with the type
of projects they are as well.

And I think that has has started.

And then we also have a couple
other layers in terms of, uh.

Project complexity as well, um,
which we rate one through three.

Our account executives are in charge
of classifying these projects after,

you know, um, so my wife does the
qualifications of, of any new inquiry.

If it's, if it's a, a
new, potential new client.

So once they're qualified and, and
they move on to an account executive,

the account executive meets with
them and then, you know, follows

the guidelines we have in place and
classifies the client the project.

So I think that's one thing that's
been helpful, um, now for us to

really, we've just started doing
that about a year ago, so we still

now are learning and understanding
and collecting the data on that.

But that's one thing.

I think the only thing for us so
far that we could, that we put

into place, it's a tangible process
around starting to understand that.

Um, but historically it's the, you know,
if we didn't want to move it through our

shop for wholesaler, you know, that's one
easy way, you know, in terms of working

out projects that you wanna work on.

Now, the client side, that is so
much easier said than done because

at the end of the day, uh, we
need to put food on the table.

And so you can say, I only wanna work.

Yeah.

You still gotta put numbers on the board.

Yeah.

Um, so

that the, that one's more challenging.

But I think we have certainly
gotten better at turning projects

away just in the last couple years.

And the unfortunate thing is sometimes
you don't know what that client's gonna be

like until it's, you know, you're in deep.

And so you know that, that,
that part's a learning process.

But I just, the experience of
working with a customer that you're

aligned with versus one that you're
not is such a different experience.

It's collaborative, it's.

You know, they're so much more engaged.

They, you know, they like
nice things like we do.

Um, you know, so there's, that's
such a different experience.

You know, what is on like the a plus
list, like, like for the criteria,

so you got like the specific, like,
Hey, here's our a plus client.

Like, what are the things because hey,
like I have this conversation with, with

new side shop owners all the time of
like, Hey, who are your top five clients?

And they're like, who, who do
we do the most in sales with?

I'm like, no, no, no, no.

Like, not, not who gives you
the most money right now?

Like, who are the, who
are your best clients?

Like, who you, it, it's a massive, right?

Yeah.

So our A plus clients one, are they,
they were histor, they were an a.

If we get a new inquiry, we do
a reach out, we're doing some

hunting on, on an A client.

They're not, they're not a customer
yet, but from what we can tell,

by looking at like what are their,
you know, if it's a developer, what

are their developments look like?

What kind of architecture or,
you know, what's their vibe?

Um, we'll do a little homework on that.

So that would be an, a customer, a
plus customer is that repeat customer.

There's a level of trust.

Um, they seek a long term partnership.

They're very partnership oriented, right?

Because that's important, you
know, we're human beings, like

shit happens from time to time.

And does that type of
client understand that?

And you understand that of
them and so it becomes more of

a, of an actual partnership.

Do they have the same taste
in the product as we do?

Quite frankly, do they,
do they take our advice?

We're not doing it for, for any
other reason than have their

best interest in mind, right?

So when we wanna bring our professional
thoughts to the table, um, are they

receptive to it or is it just like, Nope,
you know, this is what we need to do.

No, you guys are gonna do
what we want you to do.

Yep.

Just, just make it from do

they pay their bills on time?

That's another one that
is part of that equation.

Uh, are they good communicators?

'cause it's fine if they
like, like nice things.

If you have the same taste,
if all these other things.

But if you're trying to get that
vector logo from 'em for two weeks and

that's holding up the project, then
that can be a potential problem, you

know, for a long term partnership.

So those are the key ones, at least in
our a and a plus clients, you know, as

you, as you go down and rate, obviously
you guys can put two and two together

where, um, you know, that, that, so yeah.

No, that's helpful to go into, uh,
tell, tell us about your podcast, man.

Uh, because I, you know, I, I, I knew
you were already a pro at this and a,

like, I really slacked on the notes
and, and just all the other like

process that we have in place for our

podcasts.

I person am not a pro.

I have two podcasts
episodes under my belt.

Uh, maybe pro from the standpoint of
I listen to podcasts all the time.

Um, but no, I, we've been
talking about it for.

A very long time.

And, and it was started, we're
gonna start it before Covid.

And in fact, my first guess was
gonna be the, I forget what his title

was then, but I think director of
Building Inspection in Madison to talk

about the sign code and why it's so
restrictive and you know, all that stuff.

But anyway, then Covid happened and
that got put on the back burner.

Uh, but then we had a, a project for
a local broadcast company, so radio,

uh, podcast and that sort of thing.

Um, and they proposed doing a trade and
one of 'em was one of, one of what they

were proposing is, um, that we'd do six
to seven podcasts out of their studio.

And my wife was kind of shepherding this,
this project, and so she brought it.

Brought it to my attention, and
I was like, all right, well,

yeah, let's do it because I,
maybe it's the kick in the butt.

I need to get this, you
know, podcast off the ground.

Um, and so we met with them and
they're like, well, maybe you can

talk about the process of a sign sale
or, you know, interview this or that.

All this felt forced, and I'm not
good in those scenarios at all.

Like, I don't do like networking
events real well because I don't,

I'm not, I'm very extroverted
with my people, my circle.

But outside of that, I'm like, eh,
I can't fake water cooler talk.

And so, honestly, I, I didn't know
what we were gonna, I didn't know.

I didn't know what, I'm like, all
right, well we signed up for this.

Well, what, what's it gonna be?

And yeah, I, and then it came to
me, well, why don't I start with

interviewing, um, letterheads, so like
sign painters that I, that I know,

and I thought if I did, if I can get
on a rhythm of one a month, I've got.

A couple years worth of
podcasts that I could do.

I don't need a real heavy outline.

There's no script that's needed.

It's just talk and shop.

And so it's not for, it's like
you guys, it, it, it's not.

Yeah.

There's obviously, you, you guys
probably do have some of this that

turns, you know, into revenue out
maybe, possibly in some way or another.

But I'm not speaking to
the customer, so to speak.

You know, I'm speaking to our industry
and if in some way if it gains

some level of traction, it has some
exposure and it shines a light on

the traditional aspects of, of this
trade that we're in, then it's a win.

So really that's the ultimate
goal is I think all the, you know,

individuals and, and mentors and
peers I've met over the years who

have taught me, you know what I know.

Um, it was a, it's in some way
to honor them and, and give.

So that's, that's kind
of where it'll start.

I'm sure it'll evolve.

You know, like my best friend Tom Zucker
Neon Lab, he does, he does all our neon.

So we'll have him on for episode.

But yeah, just it, some of the
more traditional areas is where

it's focused now, and then I'm
sure it'll expand beyond that.

You know, it'd be cool to get, like,
it'd be cool to like interview the

owner of Jones Signs, which is a big
monster, you know, national company.

Pick their brain a little bit
on, on, you know, how, how they

built it and that sort of thing.

But, so yeah, that's where it's at now.

And then I think bringing some

where can, where can people
listen to, uh, so everywhere

it's called Make War with Dan Yoder.

So anywhere, yeah, podcasts
are listened to Spotify.

Okay.

You name it.

That's all.

We will make sure we put the
link in the show notes as well.

Yeah, and then also I, I listened to the
first episode with Mike and I thought

it was, yeah, that was my boss Mike.

Uh, I, I love, I I I, I, I love
just having a, like, just a live

conversation of, of just like two folks
who know the industry really well.

And that's, to me, that's, that's
the joy of what we do here is just,

yes, we try to have an outline
and we try to provide value.

And if you're listening, I hope
this conversation has been valuable.

If it wasn't, I had fun.

Pete had fun.

Hopefully Dan had fun as well.

But yeah, hopefully
there's some value in it.

But for me it's, I, I, this part of it is,
like you mentioned, cathartic when you are

actually building something for me, this
is kind of cathartic as well, where it's

just like, Hey, you just get to turn off.

Everything else and, and just,
you know, talk shop with somebody

who, who knows and just gets it.

Yep.

Or a YouTube channel.

Make signs, not war tv.

We post the podcast there
and it's fun to watch.

'cause we do try to pull up
examples of the work too.

Um, which is, which is,
you know, fun to see.

But yeah, that's it.

Wherever podcast can be listened
to and then our YouTube channel

made sign's, not more tv,

so.

Yeah.

Right on.

Uh, Dan, this has been awesome, man.

I really enjoyed it.

Absolutely.

I hope you'll come back on sometimes soon.

Yeah, man, I'm, I'm in, you know,
that I, I feel like there's,

there's more conversations to have.

Yeah,

for sure.

Well, I appreciate you guys
having me on, um, and happy

holidays, uh, to you and yours.

Yeah.

Merry Christmas from
my wife and I, I'm not

sure if you could see me on Yeah,
I, I noticed that, man, I'm like,

wonder, I'm wondering exactly
what's going on in that households.

Yeah, she, she got me a.

Mine's called me four.

Mine's called me four times in the
last five minutes because we're

supposed to get down the road.

Head to Illinois, so, yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

Call, get after it.

Stay out.

The dog house all.

Yeah.

Cole.

We'll see you, Dan.

All.

So that's the episode with Dan.

Pete, stop typing on the keyboard and
give us your rapid fire takeaways.

Um,

okay.

So first and foremost, he's
got a lot of raw talent.

I, I, I see, hi.

I, looking at his site and looking
and listening to him here today.

I think he's, um, for such a, in
such a short period of time, I think

he's got something here put together
that it, it needs to be recognized,

it needs to be celebrated, but he
needs to continue to push forward.

And I think sometimes, and you heard
some of it here today, that you know.

He has elements of it and he has
pieces of it and pieces of it being

like a process, but there, it's
not 100% tiled in, but it is okay.

It is okay.

You need to continue to dial
that in and yearn to be better.

Like we, like we discussed.

And I think he, you know, whether that's
technology, whether that's, uh, cre,

spending time, creating playbooks,
creating those necessary pieces so that

things don't fall through the cracks.

I think a shop that does $5 million a
year, that employees, that many people

can still have a lot to learn from
and they can still implement a lot

to make them a $10 million business.

Um, or

a, a super profitable business,

or super profitable business.

I loved his, I I loved that last thing
that he said, which was, you know,

goal by, I think he, by the time he's
50 to spend, you know, less time in

the business and I thought, well.

That is one hell of a goal.

I, but my thought was I have absolutely
no idea how you measure that.

Uh, just calculate your time, I guess.

But to me, I thought that was a
very interesting goal, not one

that we've heard here before.

Uh, but also made me think,
you know, like that what does

value look like to other people?

It's not just profit, it's not just
quality of sign, it's also their time.

And I think, uh, Dan is, Dan is
definitely somebody that is valuing

his time far better than, than
the average sign shop owner does.

So there you have it.

That's my takeaway.

Yeah,

I love that, man.

It goes back to that ideal shop
stage model that we sort have like.

It doesn't always mean that $10
million or a hundred million dollars

company is the, the goal, right?

It's like what works well for you
and, you know, if you're a, a small

three man operation and like your
aspirations are not much bigger than

that, like you just want to live
a happy lifestyle, be comfortable,

provide for your family, it's okay.

Yeah.

Don't, uh, don't grow for growth's sake.

I heard Dan say that, right?

Like, don't target growth just to
put numbers on the board Right.

And make it mean something.

So, lots of takeaways for me in this one.

Um, I, I wish we could have dived
into or dove into the, uh, the

scheduling tool, but we'll have to
bring him back on for that one man.

You would, uh, yeah.

I think I would've

geeked out a little bit on that.

Yeah.

You know, you certainly would've.

So, Bryant, um, have a
Merry Christmas, my man.

Thank you again for.

For, for leading the charge here
on a wonderful year, uh, of guests.

And we're gonna close out this
year with, with an amazing record

of, of downloads on our podcast.

This has been a wonderful year for,
for the Better Sign Shop and, and

this particular podcast, uh, just
wanted to say thank you and I'll see

you on the other side of the year.

Oh, you're gonna make me blush, man.

No, thank you, dude.

Uh, thank, thank Mike.

He couldn't make it today.

Um, Uhhuh, you know, hey,
like, it is been amazing.

Like from where we started with
this freaking thing, dude, like,

uh, hey guys, let's just catch up.

Like we, we haven't talked
to each other in a while.

Let's just catch up and talk shop to,
to now where we get to interview guests

like Dan and other industry legends
like Dan Antonelli and Dan Soki.

I don't know if it is just like
a Dan thing in the industry.

Uh, you know, I don't know.

Whatever it is.

Lots of dance, but lots dance.

Lots of dance.

It is been amazing.

Um, you know, I, this will go out
after Christmas, so again, we hope

that you've had a Merry Christmas.

Yeah, it's been a good ride so far.

More to go in 2024.

Sweet man.

So that's the episode.

I hope you enjoyed it.

I'd like to give one final shout out
to our sponsor, GCI Digital Printing

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Check them [email protected].

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