Better Sign Shop Podcast

Learn how to build a better
sign and print shop from a few

crusty sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

workflow, growth, and more.

You are listening to The Better Sign
Shop podcast with your hosts, Peter COIs,

Michael O'Reilly, and Bryant Gillespie.

Before we jump into the episode,
I'd like to give a shout out to

our sponsor, GCI Digital Imaging
Grand Format Printer to the Trade.

We talk a lot about outsourcing on the
podcast and the importance of having a.

Good partners and gci Digital Imaging
is a good partner to have owner TJ

bak and his team focus on providing
killer customer service just the

way grandmother used to make it.

If you're interested in learning
their approach to business, hop

back into the archives to episode
nine where the guys and I interview

TJ about customer experience.

So if you're looking for a high quality
trade printer for banners, wraps,

and other printed graphics that your
customers throw at you, check out

GCI Digital [email protected].

Hi guys.

Welcome back to the next edition
of the Better Sign Shop podcast.

As always, I've got my colleague,
Peter Caris, the sign shop, Yoda

H

How are you being?

What's going on?

How are you?

I'm good.

I'm good.

It's been a minute.

Happy to be back.

It

has been a minute.

I don't know where Mr.

Sign Design Samurai is, but I
feel like he'll be popping in any

moment now while we wait for him.

Let's catch up for a
minute, Pete, how you been?

Very busy.

Very busy.

Um, working on some projects, working
on growing sign shop businesses.

We're working on developing.

Honestly, the biggest development for
here today is I've been, I finally jumped

on the chat, G p t train.

I've been having fun
with it all Afternoon.

The Apple iPhone just down just came
out with an app, or maybe recently, I

don't know if it was just like today,
but I got, I was scrolling through

my social media early this morning.

My son jumped into my bed, woke me up
and, you know, he, he hands me my phone

like almost as if I missed a call.

I'm like, what are you doing?

It's five 30 in the morning.

Now you just woke me up
and he's sitting in my bed.

We're watching cartoons this morning, and
I'm like scrolling through my social, my

Twitter feed, and I come across this thing
that says Apple Chat, G P T, iPhone app.

I'm like, all right, well that's cool.

Download.

I start, I download it.

It was like 30 seconds
and it's on my phone.

I'm like, what can this thing do?

What can this thing do?

Now, there's a lot of us.

There's a lot of us
that have not used this.

So this today, effectively today, which
you know is like May 19th in the morning.

So when you're listening to this,
probably be like a couple of weeks

ago listening to this and
this morning, and I'm like,

all right, I'm gonna send some emails.

I wanna see how good this thing can be.

Ooh, scary man.

So I go, the first thing that I do is
following up with a sign shop owner,

letting them know that we need to
reschedule for next week, and that,

I'm sorry, and there's like, uh, a.

I suggested some dates.

I typed out this like two sentence
thing and it gave me like three

paragraphs worth of information,
and I'm like, this is the best

well-written email I've ever had.

Copy, paste, send it off to the owner
at like 5 30, 5 45 in the morning.

Like, all right, what
else can this thing do?

All right,

let's send the, yeah, dude, don't
ruin, don't ruin the AI episode.

So like two weeks from now, like
we're doing this AI episode, uh,

and, and it's changed so much since
the last time that I was like, okay,

here is why we need to do this.

And it's blowing my mind, but I'll
give you one tip, like if you like the,

if you're using that, do like, Use a
friendly but professional tone or like

speak like you are talking to your
best friend or something like that.

If you include that in the prompt,
it's like, it, it's, it blows me away.

Like it's, it's virtually
indistinguishable from something

that I would write, so.

Well, no, I mean, I, I've got
like a little flavor that I add to

everything.

Well, I, I guess, I guess I don't
wanna take the win from ourselves

on that upcoming episode, but
I was just blown away by this.

I've been playing around with it all day.

I've been walking around like, who
can I send some random message to?

And I'm like, I, I, I've discovered
like how do you, I was just messing

around with it and saying like, how
do you break up with your girlfriend?

How do you tell your wife that you love

her?

Uh, I How do you quit a
job that you really enjoy?

And it would, it, I mean,
it's like so amazing.

It, it's blowing my mind.

It's helped me, um, write articles,
blog articles for websites.

It's helped me write product descriptions.

I mean, again, don't want to take the
wind from the sales of that episode, but

just don't do,

it's mind blowing though.

So that's, that's, that's, that's
what's on my mind here today.

Well, cool.

Yeah, I've, I've got like some things
I wanted to talk about, but I'm

gonna wait until we get our guest on.

Uh, today.

I'm really excited for this.

We had this guy on, on our shop management
software demo series, and we enjoyed that

call so much that we said, Hey, let's
get him on to the podcast, because I

think his story is, is pretty cool and
it's, I got like a lot of weird kind of

experiences that, that you and I kind of
have of like, being in the industry as

a, you know, an owner or manager or, or
working that side of it and then working

on the software side of it as well.

Uh, so happy to Welcome on
Joe Ella at uh, sign Tracker.

I'm excited for this one.

All right guys.

Welcome back.

We've got our guest, Joe
Ella from Sign Tracker.

Joe, super excited to have you.

Thanks for coming on.

Well, thank you guys.

I appreciate it.

I'm excited too.

Hopefully, uh, you know, hopefully I can,
you know, impart a little bit of wisdom.

I don't know.

We'll see.

Yeah,

I was, I was just telling Pete before
you jumped on that, like you've got

kind of the, a little bit of the same
slice of the industry that we do.

Mm-hmm.

Like being on the, like, running a shop
for a long time, and then also being

on the software side of it, actually
making software for sign makers.

Yeah.

So, yep.

That's, that's me.

Super, super interested
for the conversation,

Pete.

Well, thanks.

Why, why don't you kick us off?

Yeah.

So I got a laundry list of
questions to ask you, so I'm

gonna tee you up really nicely.

Okay.

And start you, and start
you with an easy one.

All right.

At what point did you

realize and how more likely, how,
how did you realize that a software

like Sign Tracker was needed in this

industry?

Well, how it really hit me at first was,
you know, I owned an electric sign shop,

started it from scratch here in Austin,
Texas and owned it for over 10 years.

And so I, you know, I, I
came from another sign shop.

I actually, I have, my background
is not the sign industry at all.

Like so many people.

I stumbled into it, you know, I
actually answered an ad in a newspaper

that said Mar uh, uh, 60 to $90,000
a year in, uh, marketing sales.

It was a marketing sales job.

And so I thought, okay, I
had nothing else going on.

And um, I was in between, we
had just moved to Texas from

California, my wife and I.

And so, um, I answered the ad
in the paper and I went and it

was this dumpy little sign shop.

And I had no idea what it was all about.

I didn't know anything about
science, but I took the job cause

I had nothing else going on.

Well, I went in there, these guys had.

Zero organization.

So I was, I didn't even
have a computer on my desk.

Right?

So this is back in 96 I think.

And so we had one sh one shared computer.

So I would stay there at night
building forms cuz I did own a

small business in California.

So I was sort of, you know, I like
to organize, you know, work, I like

to organize people to get jobs done.

So I would sit, sit there at night, build
forms just so my jobs would go through

their shop a little bit more organized.

After three months I was
like, ah, screw this.

I'm out here.

I'm gonna go start my own sun company.

So, Ah, okay.

And so, so that

was the, that was the impetus of like,
you, were you just like, you were in

their shop and you're like, Hey, these
guys aren't doing this right at all.

And uh, just like, Hey,
I'm gonna go do this to

myself now, or like Yep.

So I, cuz I was, I was building like
all my own Excel and Word document

forms to organize the workflow.

I was trying to talk to the shop
foreman about, you know, setting up

different, you know, uh, you know,
forms to help get different sign

types through the shop and all that.

So anyway, to fast forward, I broke off
from there three months into the sign

industry and started Sytech International,
which is a clueless on how to even begin.

But I did take, I did take one
of their head sales guys with me.

So, and we were, you know, we were in
signs of the Times Magazine looking on

the back, trying to find wholesalers,
you know, to build signs for us.

But then it kind of, you
know, then it began, right?

So we, we had a couple
of national accounts.

We were using a wholesale,
local wholesale manufacturer to

build all our assigns for us.

And then I, again, I was building forms,
building systems, all Excel, all access.

And then I started sending these
forms out, like work orders,

survey, work orders, all this stuff.

So sign shops all over the
country, customer sign off sheets.

Once they installed the sign
for us instructions on how

to do the completion photos.

And so sign shops started saying,
Hey, where'd you get these forms?

I made 'em, can I buy 'em?

And that's the word started.

So that was the begin.

The birth of sign tracker,

just like Excel and Microsoft Word forms

pretty much.

That's all it was.

And then, and then I started
building like flow charts and org

charts and I mean, all you know.

Then I, I actually packaged it all
together with like employee handbooks

and safety manuals and all this.

And then started, I think I was
telling you guys earlier, the first

iteration of Sign Tracker was a
disc, an 80 page training manual.

The disc was pretty much just
all Excel, Excel-based word.

Documents and this printed
manual I'D stuff it in a box

and sold them for two grand.

So, and I sold 600 of 'em,
went, sold like 600 of 'em.

And, uh, but it looked like I was
saying earlier, you know, within

a few months I was getting phone
calls constantly, like, Hey Joe.

And it was all like, how do I use Excel?

Not how do I use the forms or whatever.

So anyway.

Mm.

Uh, but I did that, I did it for a
few years and then sort of pulled

back and focused on my own business.

And after I sold my sign shop, then I,
that's when I started trying to think

about how to, you know, do sign tracker
full-time and make it a real software.

So

what was the, like, what was
the next iteration, right?

We've got the CD ROMs.

Yeah.

Like the, the America Online.

Like, here's the packet for this.

Like what was, what
was the next iteration?

Well,

when I, when I, what happened
was I, our sign shop, um,

we were really lucky, right?

Like we were in a great spot.

I was here in Austin, Texas.

It was going through a big growth phase,
which actually, technically, I don't

know if that's ever ended actually.

Austin's still

born No, no, I was gonna say, yeah,
but you were in before that it was like

too expensive to actually buy a house.

Don't,

yeah.

Now it's, yeah, it's ridiculous.

Uh, so.

What happened was, um, I pulled
back, you know, I pulled back on,

on sign tracker and you know, the
business was really blowing up.

We were doing massive, you know,
rollouts for, um, you know, national

chains and restaurants and all that.

We were doing, we were in the middle of
doing the Dallas Cowboy Stadium project.

They were, when they were building
their new stadium back then,

plus we were the go-to company in
Austin for pylon signs and fin.

And so we were just really busy.

We had 60 employees and, but it was in
2008, you know, when the economy really

started going down and all of a, all of
a sudden, oh my gosh, it was terrible.

You know, and a lot of big sign shops
kind of tanked during that time,

like really big electric sign shops.

They were just going down, you know.

But right before that happened, somehow
this company, they wanted to start a

sign shop, and they were like a 300
million electrical contracting company.

And so they were searching for software
on, you know, how to manage a sign shop.

And they, cuz they did
service work, right?

They did electrical
service, electrical install.

They did 25 million a year and just
sign repairs all over US and Canada.

Oh wow.

So they thought surely if we
had a sign shop, these repair

customers would buy signs from us.

And so, uh, somehow I thought I had
pulled everything off the interwebs,

you know, but somehow they still
found this sign tracker thing.

Mm-hmm.

So they, they called me and
they said, Hey, if we sign, how

do you use this in your shop?

I said, well look, if you sign an nda,
you come to my shop, I'll, I'll give you

a tour of the shop and I'll show you.

I still have some of these things if
you guys want it, you know, it's fine.

And so they came to the shop and
what happened was, at the same

time our, the banks were like
cutting our lines of credit.

I mean, it was crazy what
was going on in 2008.

I don't know if you guys were.

You guys are young, so May maybe you
weren't in the same business then.

Well, I,

I think that was Pete's Was that like
your first year in business, Pete?

Second

year.

Second year.

And you survived.

Good for you.

It was tough and, um, I mean, what
happened was they, uh, you know,

they came and toured the shop and at
that time, you know, like I said, we

were doing the Dallas Cowboy Stadium.

We had tons of signs.

Everything was going on.

We were, we were doing a ton of
stuff and they were like a deer

in the headlights, you know.

So I get back into my, my office,
I'm showing them how to use this

Excel version of Sign Tracker.

And halfway through the presentation,
the c e o of the company just stops

and puts his hand on my shoulder
and says, okay, we've seen enough.

How about if we just buy everything?

And I went like, oh, well it's two grand
for the disk if you want it, that's you.

And he was like, no, listen kid,
we want, we're just gonna buy your,

we wanna buy your whole company.

And so, oh wow.

And so, yeah, so I, within a
few months, uh, buy October,

2008, they gave me a check and.

I worked for them.

And from 2008 to March of 2009,
the company went from, you know,

between 10, 11 million to 4 million.

It was pretty awful.

I mean, it, it was awful.

And so, was there a lot

of blowback on you because of it?

Oh yeah.

Yeah.

There was a lot.

Like, I mean, yeah, there
was, uh, and, and you know,

I don't not blame 'em, right?

Like they, they spent a lot of money,
you know, and so, and I, I had an

employment agreement with them for five
years, but after a year I was like,

Hey, why don't you buy me out of this?

So they gave me a, you know,
a few bucks and, and my pickup

truck and kicked me down the road.

But I had a business partner too, and he
had little ones and so he stayed there.

So I left with my, you know, pretty
much the deal was I didn't have to

have an NDA or whatever, so I left.

And that's when I started the ne I
said, okay, let's see if I can breathe

life back into this sign tracker thing.

And so I had, um, I had hired a
software development company to help me.

And, uh, after spending, I mean, it's
almost embarrassing to say this cuz I

didn't really know what I was doing,
but I spent like 150 grand pretty quick.

And, and in today's day with
software development, that's nothing.

Right?

But back then, you know, my and my
wife, she was, she put the kibosh

on that, you know, she's like,
you, you need to go get a job.

This is this little sign
tracker thing is you're done.

And um, so right before I just
scrapped the whole thing, I went

to a south by Southwest, cuz
here that happens in Austin.

So I went to a seminar on, uh, how
to build software as a service.

And so I go to this thing and I'm sitting
in there and it's the guy that had

founded Fresh Books that's given the talk.

Oh, okay.

And, and so really cool dude.

I ended up talking to him afterwards
for a while and he would just

said to me, he goes, Joe, look,
He goes, right now you have, you

have a hundred percent of nothing.

He goes, so why don't you find
a couple of developer guys?

So what?

Give up half the company, at least
you'll have half of something.

So I found a couple of
developers and we've been in

business together ever since.

They're great guys.

And we all kept, I went back to work in
the sign industry and uh, and we just

slowly but surely started developing
sign tracker just as a side project.

And then about five years
ago we went full-time.

So that's the sign tracker story.

Fascinating.

Absolutely stunning and fascinating.

I, I, second question from me
before, I'll, I'm gonna be selfish

and ask two before Brian asks one.

Okay.

Okay.

To this day, what is your
favorite feature about

Sign Tracker?

I would say I really
like the job flow board.

I like the visual, which I know, you
know, Trello and there's a lot of

different job flow boards out there,
but I, I think, um, For me, I really

like the job flow board, the ability
to visually organize all my jobs.

Uh, and then, you know, obviously when
you click into a job card, uh, it's

being able to have everything like
an electronic job folder, be able to

do everything and have everything in
one place rather than piles of paper

and whiteboards and all that stuff.

So I think, yeah, just having the jobs
in one place visually where you can

see them all is probably my favorite.

I bet you

half of our listeners right now, if
not the majority of them, are probably

like, yep, that's ama, that's such a
simple feature and thank you so much for

creating that and simplifying our lives.

Ah, this is a, this is the bread
and butter, like the job flow.

Like, if you can't get that right, Yeah.

Hey.

Like, you know, like the rest of it is
just a, a nightmare to deal with anyway.

Yeah.

And that's, that's kind of what struck me.

Like, uh, before we had you on,
we were talking about, we had you

do the shop management software
demo series with us and mm-hmm.

You know, we walked away from that
impressed of just like, h how close it

was to the, how a assigned person thinks.

Mm-hmm.

And like you, just the way that
you structured sign tracker, uh,

of just having like, here's the
board, like everything starts here,

ends up over there and it's mm-hmm.

Like, it just fits the mental model
for, I, I think a ton of side guys.

Yeah.

And

gals.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

And then, and then to be able
to, you know, at any point click

into one of those cards on the
board and have everything there.

I mean, I, I don't know, you know, in
your shop when you were in a shop, but

you know, back in the nineties and two
thousands, everything was a paper folder.

And I, I, I swear we spent half of our
project management time searching for

like, where the hell is that permit?

Where, you know, and it's, it's so
nice to have everything in one place.

For sure.

Be excellent.

Excellent.

You got another one, Peter,

or no?

You're good.

Oh, I got, I got, I got so many more.

So many more.

I just want, I don't wanna be rude.

I don't wanna take the
win from your sales.

Uh,

so I like, my question would probably
be on the sign tracker side, like what

were the biggest takeaways from like
your days of running the sign shop that

you incorporated into sign tracker?

Like, do do, is that like a conscious
thing that you were, or, or was

it just like a, a, an unconscious
thing of like, Hey, I'm building

the software that I would want?

Yeah, I was originally,
that was the thing, right?

So originally when I started and before
I brought, you know, before I joined,

uh, you know, brought on a couple of
partners and all that, I had this whole

thing designed out, you know, in, I mean
all the ui, all the stuff, you know,

I, because I'm a very visual person
and originally it was my thought was,

oh, every single detail of how I ran
my shop is gonna go into sign tracker.

And I am actually so thankful that
we had no money because, because if

I had developed that, it would've
been a great application for a very

small slice of the sign industry.

Cuz, I mean, think about running
a 10 million electric sign shop.

There's not a lot of those out there.

So it would've been way overdeveloped.

For your average sign shop
that has three to 10 people.

So for me, you know what's been
amazing is seeing, cuz I just in my

mind had, you know, you, you start,
you grow, you run a shop this way.

Um, and to be able to see all the
different creative ways that people

make a living in this business, right?

And run businesses.

And build teams.

And so I have, we, you know,
thankfully because we have done it

slow, we were able to keep it simple.

Not overdevelop it, it doesn't have
all these buttons that take you

to nowhere and that you never use.

And so I'm grateful for that actually,
that it's, that I was able to see

that there's a simpler way to do
things other than just the way I

thought they needed to be done.

But my experience helps a lot too.

Like, I mean, the, the business needed
a, an industry expert to the product

needed an industry expert to, to be
able to develop it correctly too.

So, Yeah.

And, and all my time spent at the
competitor, uh, we won't name them

on this one, but, uh, that was my
experience as well of like, you know,

you have to have people that come
from the industry to sell and support

software that you're selling to the
industry, because if you don't mm-hmm.

It's, it's just a nightmare.

Um, because there's mm-hmm.

It, it's not really selling the
software, like the software sells itself.

Mm-hmm.

It's more in on the support side.

Mm-hmm.

And if you can't speak the lingo, if
you don't understand the challenges

of a shop owner, it's, it's, it is
very difficult being in this market.

Mm-hmm.

It is.

And, and, um, and I, and I, and
I love that part of the business.

You know, I, I haven't, um, my last
sign shop, my daughter and my son-in-law

took it over, you know, and um, so
I haven't worked in a sign shop in

close to five years now, but I still
feel like I do, cuz I'm helping solve

problems every single day talking
to folks and our support person.

Our main support person that helps me.

She was a project manager at my last shop.

Uh, and then one of our developers
actually grew up in a sign shop and

then owned his own sign shop for three
years before he, you know, went back

to school and became a developer.

So it's kind of nice that three of us
and then my other two main business

partners, they've been in it now so
long, like they know all the lingo

they've, they've had to listen to,
you know, talk to sign folks constant,

and listen to me constantly, you know.

So what does the, what does the

support team at Sign

Tracker look like right now?

So right now it's me.

And then I have, um, we have a full-time
support person, Brooke, and both of

us, you know, pretty much we, you
know, we have a, an internal chat tool.

Our response time on that is
anywhere from three to five minutes.

So we're, we're on it, you
know, we just live in it.

And, uh, and then also both of the
development partners that are here

in the us, they're in, uh, Reno.

They also, uh, will monitor that.

So when it comes to, when it comes
to like the first level of support,

like, oh, I forgot my password.

Oh, you know, and some basic
functionality questions, Brooke

and I, you know, take care of that.

And then if it gets into like, Hey,
I imported, you know, the wrong.

Spreadsheet with all my customers names.

So Ben, we'll bring in one of the
developers to be able to get all

that outta the database and reimport.

So it just depends on the tier,
but so, but there's four of us

that are actively monitoring it.

We, the other junior developer that we
have actually lives in Brazil, and so he's

the one that grew up in the sign shop.

So he is, um, he develops, he doesn't
really get too much involved in support.

He's just mostly developing.

So there's four of us that are pretty
active in support and, and sign

tracker's.

Current, uh, employee count
is up to, uh, what now?

I'm sorry about employee count,

a customer count, excuse
me, customer count.

But we, we have uh, around 500.

So we're just a smidge
under 500 right now.

500 customers?

Yep.

505 red and shops?

Yep.

500 shops.

Got it.

Got it.

So as a follow up to that, what
is your plan to attract your next

500 owners?

So we, you know, Ooh, good question.

No, it's a, it's a, it is a good question.

It's a great question.

Um, and, and we're, we're, you know, how
do you get traction in marketing, right?

So I will readily admit
that I am a shake your hand.

Let's go out to lunch.

Uh, let me come to your office and give
a presentation and tell you stories

around the sign projects we did.

So I'm a very high touch
sales approach kind of a guy.

And then, then you have this online
product where, you know, it's, I

mean, not that you still don't want
to give people a sense of that you're

in tune to them and all that stuff,
but it's, it's a lower touch, right?

Like, how do you fill that
top end of the funnel?

It's been a, it's been a challenge.

You know, for me it has been a little
challenge and, but I'm learning,

you know, old dog new tricks.

So I think you guys know, we started,
uh, behind the signs, and originally

we started the behind the science
group on Facebook, kind of as a.

Alternative to a few of the other big
sign groups that were on Facebook,

that there's some great stuff on those,
but really wanted to kind of focus

on one that was kind of elevating
the sign industry together, right?

Where people could support each other.

So behind the Signs has been a place
where sign shops can come and support.

We're offering, you know, hopefully
content that's, that's helpful to them.

Business development content, I mean,
nothing to the extent that you guys

are doing with applications and stuff,
but that is having a, and people are

starting to associate that group with,
Hey, look at all this stuff that the

Sign Tracker folks are giving us and
providing for us and not charging us.

And so slowly but surely we're
seeing our top end funnel increase.

We're seeing, um, trials
increase, conversions increase.

So I think we're gonna double down
on behind the signs and just keep

trying to put out really positive,
helpful content to the industry.

And we really feel that that's gonna
get us to our next 500 customers.

Plus word of mouth.

You know, friends are te I mean,
sign shops are telling their friends,

which, you know, in our industry can
be a little, they don't tend to do

that as much as they probably should.

Yeah, agreed.

Agreed.

I think it was, uh, who was, it was Tom
mle Trot that we had on here a couple

episodes ago, and he, uh, he was talking
about the days when him and his brothers

would go and actually they would just
randomly walk up to other shops and

as soon as the, the shop owner learned
that they were, they were shop owners

themselves, they were sign painters,
uh, they would put away all the stuff

that, all the drawings, like all the
paint, like everything is going up.

Yeah.

Just because they didn't want
to share that kind of stuff.

But yeah, I, I, I think what you're doing
with behind the signs is, is really cool.

And, uh, you know, definitely fits
a, along the same lines of what

we're trying to do is just educate
and provide resources to, to help

everybody grow.

Yeah, exactly.

And there's enough work
out there for everyone.

Right.

If you, if you look at, I mean, If
I was to go out and start another

sign shop today, a, a third one.

Well, first, a, my wife would
divorce me, but I'm, uh, you know,

mine too.

Uh, yeah, and my wife's a
lawyer too, so I'm screwed.

Like I would just have to sign a blank.

But, you know, I would just,
I would just keep it small.

I would do two or three, two or three
things, you know, very, very well

and maybe outsource the rest of it,
you know, and just keep it simple and

manageable and make a living, like the
idea, like for me, the idea of growing

another big shop, it's like, ah, no way.

I wouldn't want to do that.

I like that idea.

I like that.

Being a niche shop is definitely
something, not too many pe not too many

people do their first go around, but I
definitely can echo something like that.

So.

Just kind of, let's let, let me
kind of finalize that thought there.

You you, great answer on how
to get your next customers.

I love the approach.

I was just telling my friend Carol, uh,
I was texting her the other day and she's

in payroll, um, merchant processing.

Mm-hmm.

And I, and she's, and
she's doing this remotely.

And I'm like, oh, well, you
know, you're a beautiful girl.

You know, you're young, you're energetic,
you're a family woman too, so people are

gonna resonate with you, but you gotta get
out there and you gotta shake some hands.

And she goes, well, what's, what's
like an important thing that I can do?

I'm like, I'll tell you
a quick little story.

I, the only reason why I went with a
local guy that did my merchant processing

was because he came to my door mm-hmm.

And said, I will, I will.

I shook your hand, gave me a coffee mug.

And he said, I'm gonna
deliver receipt paper.

I'm dating myself.

Receipt paper for life for you.

This guy would always
come with like a box of.

Receipt paper, like mm-hmm.

20, 30 rolls and, you know, you never
want to be out of receipt paper, but

I don't even think we do receipt paper
anymore, but most, most receipts are

invoice, uh, emailed and things like that.

Mm-hmm.

But, you know, there, there's that,
let me shake your hand approach.

So I, I love that.

Mm-hmm.

I love that you do that.

I think that's what makes you unique.

I would hope that one day, uh, whenever
it comes, when you get your thousandth

customer, that you do not change that.

Mm-hmm.

Although you probably have
to shake a lot more hands.

Mm-hmm.

And that might be something
that you're gonna love to do.

Yeah.

But it's, it's gotta, it, it correlates
to your level of customer service.

See, here's my take on it.

Okay.

With the other competitors of yours,
a sign shop is an account that

pays a monthly retainer mm-hmm.

That has, that uses the software.

And as that number increases, So to
do the voices, the level of increased

support tickets that you will have.

Mm-hmm.

Um, innovation.

So many, I could keep going.

So many more things will also increase
as your customer bandwidth does.

Mm-hmm.

However, um, with, with that being said,

what

are your plans for growing?

Not necessarily your customer
base, but growing with technology?

Yeah.

Is there a plan?

Mm-hmm.

Is there a plan with the, the development
of, say, new apps, integrations with new

apps that are PR built around productivity
and maybe chat G P T and other things

like that, that are AI related?

Mm-hmm.

What are your plans in that area?

Uh, well chat g p t is super helpful
for me to write articles, you know,

so for, for out, for outlines, you
know, uh, so no, but all, you know,

all joking aside with that, I, I
have, I have found it useful actually.

Um, but no, where, you know, I'm, you
know, I am, again, not a developer,

but I am, I am grateful that I have
really, really great development

partners and engineers that I work with.

And so I think what's gonna drive the
growth of the product in Sign Tracker

is what's been driving it, right?

Like list, yes, we've been a little
limited, um, in our ability to add

features that we really want to just
because we're a small team, but we

are growing and as we grow, we're
reinvesting back into the business.

Like we're we all live.

I mean, this little green screen right
here, right behind it is my garage.

And you know, like we, we all work remote.

We keep our, you know, our
overhead really lean so that we

can invest back in the business.

So, The more we, you know, grow the
base of our customers and listen

to what their challenges are.

We're developing solutions around that.

And that's pretty much how we've
done it right from the beginning.

They needed a place to be
able to store all their files.

Okay?

So we built file storage within the job.

They needed a place to view
all their files in this source.

Okay?

So we built viewers.

Now, you know, now, hey, I need to
be able to send contracts straight

out of the, um, the app and have
clients sign them like a DocuSign.

Okay?

So we adopted that and did that.

So, and, and we don't just like, I
think we're, a lot of the other software

products make mistakes is they, they have
one client that bugs the crap out of them

for one feature and then they build it.

And maybe that one client
and a few others are happy.

But next thing you know, You know,
they've done it again and again and again.

And then they have this product
that's bloated where a lot

of the features aren't used.

So we try really hard to interview a lot
of clients before we add another feature.

And I think we're gonna keep,
keep going down that path.

Yes, we do want to do
some more integrations.

We're actually interviewing someone
next week that kind of specializes

in integration so that we can
think about some of the important

things that we should integrate.

Like the requests, we've had a lot of
requests over the past couple years.

Can it integrate with
Google Calendar or whatever.

So, but yeah, our, we're, we're de they,
the application, the product is not

stagnant, I'll just put it that way.

We, we are constantly working on it
and, and doing little sprint releases.

Based on the customer feedback.

So we're gonna keep going
in that direction for now.

Unless, uh, someone out there in Beil
sign shop land has a couple mill they're

wanting to throw on sign tracker,
then we'll ramp up really quick.

You know, you took the win from my
sales on the next question there.

But, but ideally, your philosophy
on handling new feature request

is centered around a, a pretty
rigorous interview between mm-hmm.

You and a collection of clients,
not necessarily just one client.

So is this feature, uh, I guess, you
know, everybody likes to have a voice.

Mm-hmm.

So what is, what is the overall
thought process for you on

how your company handles.

Request, is it something
that they can respect?

Is it something that they think
is, it goes into a queue and over

promising and underdelivering?

What is

your process for that?

Yeah, I, I, you know, I'm your
typical sign sales guy, so I've had,

I've had bad habits in my life of
over-promising and un underdelivering,

but, but now that I'm, now that I'm

old

and wise, I've, uh,
I've stopped doing that.

Um, so basically when somebody, you know,
when we're pretty honest with them, right?

Like if, if somebody gives us a feature
request, we do respond right away.

It goes into, you know, um, a system
that we keep to track all those requests.

We respond right away.

We'll ask questions around,
and we keep, you know, notes on

the answers to those questions.

What, you know, what is your use case
based like, like why, why would you,

what would you use this feature for?

How would it help your business?

And then when we get enough people
that might ask and we let them

know, like we we'll honest with
them, like, this is a great idea.

We're gonna put this on our development.

Ideas board and um, ideas board.

There you go.

Yeah.

We're not gonna, you know, we're not
gonna promise it's going into the queue.

It'll go on the board, but, you know,
if we get enough, if we get 10 people

that ask for this feature, and it
seems like something that could be

added in a six to eight week sprint,
and we can talk to a few other folks a

around that suggestion, then we do it.

And so I love that

approach.

I love the approach, you know, tech
companies, not necessarily just in this

space, but when they hear a feature,
they're like, okay, let's get that done.

Oh, especially if they're an emerging
brand and they're looking to make their

current roster of customers really happy.

They're, I love that you said
the word bloated, because that's

what the product ends up being.

Is it?

Mm-hmm.

It kind of morphs into something.

Beyond what?

Beyond the original strategy.

Kind of like what we're doing
here in the Better Sign shop.

You know, I'll use our
own platform as an exp.

We are developing enhanced features,
but we are not coming up with a P O s.

Despite my numerous attempts.

We're not, we're not doing a

p, we're just not gonna do it.

And,

and, and the vision is clear and
we're continuingly taking and

speaking to people on a platform
that are asking us for features.

And I love the, I love
the, what'd you call it?

The, the ideas board.

Yeah.

I normally revert to a queue.

Yeah.

But the fact that there is like a step
before the queue there is I love that.

Yeah.

I, I love that very, very much
applaud to you for putting

something like that in play for you.

I, I think that's great.

I think that's going to lead to
a lot more success in the short

term and long term for you.

Good.

Thanks.

I, I'm gonna follow this up
with, I have two more, two

or three more questions left.

All right.

All right.

And, and I know we're running
a little short on time here,

so I'll make 'em quick, but.

For me

and I guess for the, the hundreds
of listeners that we have out there.

Why, and I'm, I'm sure you have a
queued up answer for this, so I'm

gonna just ask you why should our
listeners use the software over

others?

And I, you know, you don't want to just
say, well, look, it's designed, it's,

it's where, where, where can I go here?

I don't know if I have this queue up.

I don't wanna, I obviously, my first
thought is, well, it's, it's affordable,

but, but I don't want to, we don't wanna
just be known as like the affordable

solution in the sign industry.

There's reasons, you know, there's
reasons why we probably are priced

the way we're priced because
our target is for smaller shops.

But I would say, look, sign tracker.

We know that the majority of
our customers are not staring

at a computer all day, right?

Like, they need to get in, get some
information, store a file, make a

note, assign a task, and probably
gonna be out in the shop making signs

or out in the field installing signs.

So they're, they're a combination
of, you know, uh, owner operator.

So I think with sign tracker,
you know, it's, and especially if

you're transitioning from, let's
say even, even even a, like a

Trello app or something like that,
where you want a little bit more

functionality that's sign shop related.

But certainly if you're coming
from any kind of a whiteboard

paper folder, keep it in my head.

All those obviously places,
sign tracker's a great step

in, in, in the right direction.

We've had some customers
that have about grown us.

Um, we had a shop that had,
you know, 40 employees and they

needed a full e r P system.

Um, they needed bar coding and,
you know, Time tracking for, uh,

you know, for their cus for against
the job, you know, all that stuff.

And that's fine.

We were excited that they were
with us for five years and went

on to a, you know, Epicor, which
is like a big giant er p system.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, but I think for, for, if you look
at the makeup of most sign shops of,

you know, up to five, between five and
10 employees, sign tracker's ideal.

It's simple, it's affordable.

The support is great.

And so, yeah.

And you get to know me, Joe.

Yeah.

I, I, and I like

that.

So you are between, so your, your ideal
customer from your perspective that you're

targeting is a shop three to 10 employees.

Mm-hmm.

Is it that, is there a specific,
uh, industry, like can they do wrap?

Can they be wrap shops?

Can they be print shops?

Can they be vinyl, electrical?

What's the ideal shop look like?

Uh,

All of the above.

Um, all the above.

Yeah.

It's, it's all of the above.

So that's the other thing too, cuz
there are some, you know, some of the

applications that are out there that
are very specific to electric sign

shops, there's some that are very
specific to just vinyl shops, right?

So with sign tracker, it's pretty
flexible cuz really the only vari

variable in, in those different types
of products are gonna be the quoting

templates, the task templates that
you, and you can build them yourself.

You're, you're, you're,
it's really flexible.

So on the same quote worksheet
in sign tracker, you could do a

channel letter set, window vinyl,
and a box wrap all on one quote.

And you can manage it through the
system, that job, all on one ticket.

So, or divide it up into several tickets,
but it's really geared for the, the

shop that does a little, you know,
it's, it's fine for shops that just do

vehicle wraps, but it's real, it's really
flexible enough for shops that do I do a

little bit of everything kind of thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's which a lot of small,
a lot of small shops do that.

Right, that's

what I was gonna say.

Yeah.

Hey, like there's a, a lot of
convergence happening lately with

equipment costs going down and,
uh, just, you know, everybody

doing a little bit of everything.

Yeah.

Um, okay.

So I'm a, I'm a sign shop and I
have four employees and I'm doing

sub a million dollars in gross
sales, and I have over, let's just

say, over 300 customers in my book.

Majority of my book is probably made up
of 50 50 new business and repeat business.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and I decide, I meet you,
you walk into my shop and I

say, J and I see you seem like a
really fascinating human being.

I shake your hand and you tell
me all about sign tracker and

I decide this is really a good
opportunity for me to get in with a

software.

What does

the onboarding with your
software software look like for

a shop like me?

So, well, first we have a
14 day free trial, right?

No credit card.

Nothing.

And so as soon as someone signs up,
we reach out to them immediately.

I do, um, every week standing webinars.

So I would say like, Hey, you know,
come to our Wednesday webinar where

I do a complete overview of the
app, really focused on project,

the project flow side of the app.

And we ask questions and sort
of, you know, and we literally,

we'll show them like, Hey, this
is how you set your employees up.

This is how you set
your task templates up.

This is how to organize
your job flow board.

I mean, it comes pre-organized,
but if you, if, if your workflow

is a little different, we help
you change it and tweak it.

And so we get them kind of in
there getting used to entering

their jobs and used to the flow.

And then the more complicated
side, I think of any.

App in our industry is gonna
be the quoting side, right?

So on on.

Then once a week I have one webinar
that just focuses on quoting, you know,

the first webinar I will show them
like how the quotes feed into the jobs.

But the second webinar, all I do is
like how to set up your materials, how

to set up your labor, and this come, it
comes with some stuff, but how to edit

those, um, how to, how to set up formula
items if you, if you use formula items.

And then how to build product
templates that feed into the

jobs to make quoting quicker.

So it after, uh, and they can come to
those like their, their live links on

our DA on the dashboard right inside
their app where they can click and just

join the webinar every week, two a week.

I also do a lot of
individual training too.

So if they feel like, you know,
cuz two or three sign shops will

show up every week at those things.

And sometimes people feel a
little intimidated about talking

about their shop or their needs.

So I will also set up one-on-one training
sessions with them too, if it's needed.

But we're committed to staying with them.

You know, and, and partnering
with them until they're using

the app and feeling like they're,
they're being successful with it.

So, yeah.

Nice.

That's what we do right now.

So it's a handholding approach.

Mm-hmm.

And it's free and it's free to sign up.

What is the typical, uh,
user signing up with?

Is there a price point that

they

are there, is guided towards?

Yep.

So it's two, for two users,
it's 49 bucks a month.

And if they sign up for a year,
usually on the first year, we give

them a 25% off coupon for their,
if they decide to go for the year.

So to get into it initially,
it's not a lot of money.

Yes.

It's nothing, it's not a lot of money.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then you get from three to
five users, it's 99 bucks a month,

which I mean, I, I would, I would
say those two groups make up about

half, you know, half the business.

And then, and once you get to six users,
then it's unlimited and it's 149 a month.

So that's it.

I mean, a hundred nine, a
hundred forty nine a month.

If it keeps you from, you know,
one banner job falling through

the cracks, it pays for itself.

You know?

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

So at

one, even at 1 49 a month, if I,
if I didn't have six employees,

it's not about our price, right?

We're not mm-hmm.

I'm sure you don't get a lot of
pushback on price in terms of signups.

Mm-hmm.

So what is the, what is the major piece?

What's the missing component here?

What are people asking for that you don't

have, or

what is it exactly that's
preventing you from having

more

than 500 users?

Yeah.

I, I would say, you know, and, and
the past, you know, the past few

years since we all sort of jumped ship
from our day jobs and started doing

this, first it was just two of us.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So it's been, it's been bandwidth on
development, you know, and band marketing.

But we're, we're getting, we're getting
some really good stride going now, but I

would say, you know, the, the big thing
that we're working on right now and.

Probably we should have done it
sooner, but we're doing it now.

So it's okay.

Is the ability, you can send
the contract out of sign track

or you can get it signed.

You can get approved.

All that information goes into QuickBooks.

So you can generate your invoices and
do your receivables and all that stuff.

But the ability to send the
proof and then accept credit

card payment right in the app.

I would say really, other than that,
sign Tracker has everything else.

The sign shop needs, and we know that
we don't have that and it makes me want

to, I should find something sharp and
stab myself in the eye, but, you know,

but, but we're working on it, right?

Yeah.

I'll, we won't do that.

We're working on it and it's,
it is our major push right now,

like that's what we're doing.

But other than that, I think
Sign Tracker has everything.

A shop, you know, a
smaller shop needs, right?

So you get into 25 employees, 20.

Not that we don't have customers,
we do have customers that have,

you know, 20 employees and 25
employees that do big electric.

Projects and they just like sign
tracker and they're sticking with it

and I'm sure they have other things
that help them with um, time tracking or

whatever, but, um, or inventory controls.

But, but I think, yeah, I think sign
trackers, I think once we have that

piece built and it's gonna happen
this year, then the rest of it's just

continuing to enhance it and listening to
customers and keeping on that same path.

I think that, I

think it's great.

Joe, I'm on your website right now.

I'm checking out a couple of things.

I mean people, how

could people find you?

Uh, they can find me.

Uh, they just go to sign-tracker.com
and, uh, and we're, you know, they

can, I'm just joe sign-tracker.com
so you're always welcome to send

me an email directly, you know.

Much to my, much to my wife's disapproval.

I usually give people my, all of
my customers, all our customers

have my cell phone, which could
make vacations very tricky.

Yes.

I, I don't know why you do

that, but because I, cuz I'm insane.

I mean, I do try, I do, I'm trying to get
better at that, you know, but, uh, but I,

I do try to make myself super accessible,
but they can reach [email protected].

Um, also, you know, I spend a lot of
time these days on Behind the Signs,

the Facebook group, behind the Signs.

We have our, on our website,
sign-tracker.com, we have our, um,

TOLLFREE number and all that stuff, uh,
published right on the top of the screen.

So, yeah, any, you can reach out
to us, all those, all those ways.

Excellent.

So, Joe, one of the things that I, I think
is just like watching you interact on

Behind the Signs and just with your own
audience, I get the sense that you're a

guy like me that likes Talking Shop, that
may be like your favorite part of the job.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so I'm assuming you talk with
a lot of shop owners and mm-hmm.

Like, one thing that, that comes
up a lot on our coaching calls,

or even like the, the mastermind
calls that we do is like the, the

mental side of owning a sign shop.

Mm-hmm.

And this is kind of shifting away
from the software talk, but, uh,

one concept that we've seen come up
a lot is the, this making this jump

from being a technician to an owner.

And, and like hearing you describe your.

Like your journey into the, the
sign industry At first, it, it

seems like you kind of came in
as a, like an owner mindset.

Mm-hmm.

At, at that very first shop
that you started at of mm-hmm.

Like, Hey, I'm in my evening time,
I'm gonna sit down and knock out

some forms so things run smoother.

But I would say on the, the side
tracker side, you probably deal with

a lot of folks who are starting out
in their own side shop after working

as a installer, production person, or
a designer as a, at a different shop.

Mm-hmm.

Would, would you say that's true?

Like, do you interact with
a lot of people like that?

Yes.

Yes.

And so I, I saw that question
that you, uh, sent to me.

You know, the, the making the shift from
being a technician to an owner and, you

know, and I, uh, I think I went through
that at a younger age cuz I, you know, I.

My first business I lived in,
I lived in Southern California.

I was in the Marine Corps.

Long story, I won't tell you all that
stuff, but I was in the Marine Corps

for a few years and then after I got
outta the Marine Corps, I went to,

uh, college to become a minister.

And so when I graduated, I had a
degree in religion and I don't, I

don't know, man, I was like looking
in the newspaper under the religion

section for jobs and there is none.

Right, right, right.

So I had a janitorial company, so I
was out cleaning offices, you know, and

one, one night, it was like four in the
morning, I was just exhausted to the bone.

I had three kids to feed.

My wife is in college full-time.

And I thought, this has gotta
be a better way to do this.

You know, so I can't just be cleaning
offices until the sun comes up every day.

It's gonna kill me.

And I think it's the idea that how can
I, how can I go from doing the work to.

Managing the work and
bringing the work in.

And, you know, if you, if you think
about sign shops, you know, almost

every, oh, not almost everyone.

This is certainly some that start off
as an entrepreneurial mindset and they

look at it as a great opportunity.

But I think a lot of, um, a lot of sign
shops stop with exactly that, right?

On Monday, the installer shows up by
Friday, he's so pissed off at his boss.

He says, screw it.

I'm outta here.

I'm gonna go start my own shop.

And whether it's a designer
or an installer, whatever.

And then they get out there and
they, they're still really good at

being an installer, but they don't
even know where to begin to make

that shift as a business owner.

And I think for, for me, I always
try to say people, first of all,

sales, think about your company
as not an install company.

You are a sales organization.

That does insults.

Right?

So you, you need, you
need, you know, that's

a good's a, it's a good shift to

start there to do.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Start there.

And then a lot of times they'll
say, well, I'm not really a salesy

kind of person, you know, I, look,
I'm not a used car salesman, kind

of a guy either, but nobody is this
passionate about your business than you.

You know, and nobody's gonna tell
your story about why you started

that business better than you.

And so you gotta, I feel like you, you
have to go out and make those connections

with people as a, I'm not just a
sign, like, oh, I'm just a signed guy.

No, you're a business owner.

You know?

Right.

And so, and, and here's why you
would like to work with my business.

Now, it could be that you're going
back to your shop and like, holy crap,

how am I gonna get all this work done?

I gotta go do it myself.

But then I think the second sta, the
second stage there is trust, right?

So you hire people.

I hear this a lot where it's
like, oh man, what's, what's

the bottleneck at your shop?

Well, I can't get quotes out the door.

Why can't get quotes out the door?

Because the owner keeps
everything in his head.

What's your schedule?

I don't know.

He keeps it all in his head, or
she keeps it all in her head.

And somehow you get a, you get a
shift out of that thinking and trust

the people that you hire, right?

That's where maybe system
development comes in place.

So if you're a great installer, you
love installing, but want to own and

install business, you're gonna have to
make these shifts in, you know, your

thinking about who you are and about
what you do at the business as far as

business development, like the work
you guys are doing with shop owners.

Great.

Um, I mean, what we do pro helping
provide systems and tools, great.

But they have to decide themselves that
they're gonna take these things and use

them to grow the business and grow people.

To run the business with them.

And if, and if they can't make
that shift, look, if you're a great

installer out there and you don't
think you can do all that stuff, just

go find a better company to work for.

Don't go start your own shop
cuz it'll drive you nuts.

I, I

agreed.

Agreed.

That yeah.

That's a, that's my
sentiment almost exactly.

Of like, Hey, if, if you're not
a business owner, it's okay.

Like, if, if that's not in your dna,
n a, it's not what makes you happy.

Like just because you can't make a
great living at the current shop that

you're at or, you know, or, or maybe
you've started out on your own and

you're going through this, like, it's
not too late to go the other way.

And there's no, there's plenty of shops
out there that are successful and treat

their employees well and pay well.

Mm-hmm.

And things like that.

Mm-hmm.

It's just, just a matter of finding them.

Yeah.

They're out there.

The other, one thing that I wanted to
touch on before we let you go was just

like the, the mental health aspect.

I think you had, um, Sherry Walling
on like an episode of your podcast.

Mm-hmm.

And I loved her book of how to, I forget
the name of it now, how to like, be an

entrepreneur without losing your shit.

Yeah.

And I, I re, I've read through that
book and I really like a lot of what

she said resonated with me because
I am, I'm like, I would call myself

a recovering workaholic of mm-hmm.

Like, I, I w you could
ask my wife and she might.

Say, not recovering or, but, but
certainly, you know, the, the

mental side of the, this industry,
like, we don't talk about a lot.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I talk to a lot of shop owners
that are working 60, 80 hours a week.

Mm-hmm.

And I, I think as you and I both
know, Pete knows it's usually not a

great recipe for success or mm-hmm.

Like, future success.

And I know you had some of your
own struggles with, uh, like

overwork at your sign shop, and
I, I've heard you talk about like

alcohol and, and things like that.

Would you care to expand on
that just a little bit for our

listeners?

Sure.

Yeah.

I, I, I'm, I'm comfortable
talking about, about that.

So, you know, I think, I think
our brains need relief, right?

Like, we, we need relief.

We can't keep up with a 50, 60 plus hour
work week and keep our shit together.

It just doesn't work.

Um, and so, You have to do something
and, and just what we were talking

about earlier, maybe it's a, a
matter of like building a team

and trusting and letting go.

And, but you know, for me, you know,
I, I tend to be a control freak.

You know, I'm a little better
now that I'm a little older.

But, um, and so I would stay at the shop.

I was your typical guy that would
stay, work weekends and stay there,

you know, 40, 50 hours a week.

And, you know, and I, look, I
grew up in the seventies, right?

So if it wasn't tied down, you'd snorted
or smoke it, but, um, or drink it.

But, uh, you know, but, but, you know,
but if it, but you know, I mean, in

my, but then I got married really young
and I couldn't afford any of that crap.

And besides, I was trying
to be a better person.

And, uh, so I didn't, I didn't really
drink through my twenties and, and

into my thirties or any of that stuff.

But then, You know, work life started
just becoming harder and harder.

And I found myself like, oh, I'll
have a beer after work, or go out

with clients and have some drinks,
or, you know, and this thing kind

of, you know, it snowballed, right?

So you do, you start doing one thing
to relieve the pressure, and ultimately

we know it doesn't work and, but
you tend to do more and more of it.

So I found myself, you know, year after
year del developing a, a bad habit

with it as a way of relieving pressure.

And so, um, towards the end when I
finally did, did stop drinking, um,

yeah, it was, it was becoming a problem.

I'm not talking about vodka bottles
under the kitchen sink kind of drinking,

but it was every single night, you
know, and some days going, going to

work, you know, a little hungover.

So for me, what happened was I was in
between starting my, uh, in between

selling SciTech International.

And starting, uh, studio
o with my daughter.

Um, I did work for a couple years
for another sign shop while we

were building sign tracker, selling
signs and, and, uh, I would stay at

that shop super late doing quotes.

And uh, sadly there was a
brewery in that parking lot.

And so we got to know that the
guys at the shop would go over

every night, drink, drinking.

It just became an every night ordeal.

And so, uh, one night I was sitting at
my desk, I'm like three pints into doing

some quotes cause it was a smaller shop,
so I had to do my own quotes and stuff.

And one of the guys from the shop
just came up and said, Joe, he, he

was pretty just blatant in my face.

I think you're an alcoholic.

Ah, no.

You know, and, but he, he invited
me to an AA meeting and I went and

I started hearing all these stories.

I'm like, holy crap, maybe
I am an alcoholic, you know?

So I decided to take a 30 day
break on alcohol and it's turned

into going on 10 years, so.

Wow.

Yeah.

But, you know, it doesn't mean that my
addicted brain has necessarily shut off.

I just took up running, I became like,
I became like the sign guy Fort Gump.

And so in, in 10 years I've run, uh,
20 marathons, a half a dozen trail,

runs a 50 mile trail run mountain runs.

I've done four half Iron Mans
and I'm looking at my ribbon

wall over there, but, oh, nice.

Okay.

So, yeah, so just act, you know, for me
it was like developing, uh, a spiritual

life, a better sense of self-worth.

And a lot of, uh, a hell of a
lot of exercising, you know,

and, uh, and yeah, it's worked.

You know, I, I definitely
feel like a happier, less

stressed out person these days.

Well, you, you definitely answered where
I was gonna take that next was like,

you know, what are, were the skills and
like the strategies that you developed

to, to combat the stress in instead
of, you know, I, I would say it like

misusing alcohol because I, I've been
there as well of like, Hey, I have

way too many beers a couple days in a
row, and I'm like, wait, like I, you

know, this is, this is not healthy.

So, yeah.

That's great.

You took up running.

And I would, I would encourage, like all
of our listeners, like if you're a shop

owner and you don't take time out of
the day to exercise, just like for me,

I throw on a 30 pound, uh, BR backpack.

I've got a, like a flat weight
that sits in my backpack.

I an hour every day.

That's what I do to, that's awesome.

To, to de-stress.

But if you don't have that, like
you gotta start because you, you

can't keep it all up here like Joe

said.

No, you can't.

And, and, and it's different
for everybody, right?

Like, so you might, you know, you
might find that meditation, I use

the Calm app, which is really good.

Um, and I'm, I wish I could say I
meditated every day, but I do try to

run, you know, at least four to five
days a week and bike a few days a week.

And you just gotta find
what works for you.

And, and I, I don't know if you, you know,
I don't know if you watched the whole

episode with Sherry Walling, the interview
that I did, but you know, I like what she

says a lot too, is get to a point your day
where you say that's it enough is enough.

I mean, there's gonna be times
when you push yourself and you're

gonna work those, you know, 15 hour
days cuz you gotta get stuff done.

But take a break point
and say, okay, I'm done.

I leave it here, breathe in whatever
you need to do to separate yourself

mentally from the work and go home
with your family and enjoy that.

You know, and uh, maybe it's hitting
the gym on the way home for 45 minutes.

Who knows?

But you gotta do something for sure.

Perfect.

Well, Joe, uh, we
appreciate you coming on.

It's been a, a really
interesting conversation.

I was glad to, to have you back and, uh,
you know, I, I've really enjoyed this.

Looking forward to what you
guys do next with Sound Tracker.

Definitely keep us up to speed so we can,
you know, inform our audience on what you

guys are up to when you get that, uh, that
proof and pay feature that I know that'll

be very helpful for a lot of folks.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I appreciate you guys and I think
you're doing great work out there too.

You know, there's not, there's not
enough people out there helping

sign shop owners and, and you know,
we all need that support for sure.

So you guys are doing great work too.

Absolutely.

Pete got any closing comments?

This was one of my favorites.

Thank you so much, Joe.

I'm probably gonna touch base
with you a little bit offline.

I got some clients I think would
be great for your software.

All right.

Uh, love to connect with you a little
bit offline on that, but thank you

so much for jumping on here with us.

Um, I just sent Brian a private message.

I said this is not gonna be our
last time speaking with him and

having him on the show here.

Uh, thank you again for jumping
on and telling your story.

I, I, I learned a little bit.

I'm sure our listeners

did too.

Well, I appreciate you guys very much.

All excellent.

Thanks Jim.

Bye.

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