Better Sign Shop Podcast

Bryant Gillespie: All right, guys.

Welcome to the next edition of
the better sign shop podcast.

I've got Peter Kourounis with me and Mike
Riley, still searching for his nickname.

What's new with you guys.

Peter Kourounis: I'm on vacation.

I'm enjoying a couple of days off.

It's been a wonderful, week so far.

I got two more days before I gotta
get back into the grind, but being

able to take some time away from
the sign shop and from all the other

things I've done is a blessing.

And I've been enjoying it very much.

I even got a nice tan going.

Michael Riley: It's nice.

Where are you?

Peter?

Peter Kourounis: I am doing a staycation.

I did not leave my house.

I did not leave my house.

I had some

plans to travel.

COVID derailed those plans a
little bit, but, it's been nice.

I got to take my son for
his first haircut today.

I got to take him out
for pizza and ice cream.

The other day we went and be
doing some pool days and we

went to the beach yesterday.

So it's been nice.

I'm not, I think I wanna do some stays a
little bit more often, to be honest, it's

been really nice and doesn't really cost
nearly as much as going on a vacation,

but eh, I've got to coup I got to meet
a couple of the local business owners.

I'm shopping for a car.

Huh?

It's been nice.

Not having

to worry about work.

Bryant Gillespie: I can't.

Yeah.

I don't think the shopping
for a car thing is you.

I think you're lying there, man.

You're not being

Peter Kourounis: no.

I just went on a major Twitter
rent earlier this morning against

Tesla, and I'm a huge Tesla fan.

I have a Tesla model three, and
man, they really got you because I'm

not allowed to buy out the lease.

I'm not allowed to make
the money off the car.

It's their car.

I've just been like renting the
car for three years from Tesla.

And now not my lease is over.

I'm like, yeah, what are you gonna do
to keep me as a customer with Tesla?

And they basically said, you

gotta give us like five or $6,000
to get you into another lease.

And, you'll pay all the fees and all the
stuff to transfer you into this lease.

And I'm like, all right,
I'm going back to Jeep.

See you later.

So now I'm looking at that
electric, Jeep Wrangler four by E.

but yeah, so I don't know.

I enjoy, shopping for cars.

Said nobody ever

Michael Riley: That's the
worst experience ever.

Peter Kourounis: What about you?

I'm sure you guys aren't on vacation.

So how's your week been?

Bryant Gillespie: Go ahead.

Michael Riley: my week's been a nightmare.

Bryant Gillespie: Sign burrito.

Michael Riley: a wild week.

I, my, my wife and I, had tickets to a
concert on the other side of the state.

And, we totally didn't realize that it was
on a Tuesday night until Tuesday morning.

Peter Kourounis: Hey, was
that nineties concert?

Michael Riley: yeah.

That's where we were.

And it was awesome.

It was,

Peter Kourounis: how was that?

Michael Riley: in garbage.

I was amazing.

It was so good.

Yeah.

It was an amazing concert.

It was actually, I'm a concert junkie.

Like I go to concerts all the time.

I made up in the hundreds of
concert in my life and in Alan S.

Morris, this is the
second time I've seen her.

And it's she stands like where she rises
above everybody else I've ever seen.

it's an amazing performance.

I'm only like a huge fan of
her music, but just it's crazy.

And this was the.

The rowdiest crowd I've ever seen
at a concert too, which is saying

something like there were so many
drunk women reliving their nineties

youth I felt really intimidated.

I was a little outta place,
but, yeah, it was a lot of fun.

It was great, but it was just, it
was stressful because we were like,

oh shit, we've middle of the day.

Like we have to drive four or
five hours to get through this

concert on a Tuesday night.

So we get a little poor
planning on our part.

So my week's been in

Peter Kourounis: what would
you say was Alen Moore?

Set's like biggest nineties hit and,

Michael Riley: Oh, you oughta know
that's her biggest song by far.

Peter Kourounis: You ought to

know.

I've always been a handed,
my pocket kind of fan.

I love that song

Michael Riley: good

soccer.

Peter Kourounis: for whatever
reason that's been my favorite.

But, at your concert, which one was
like where the crowd erupted, the one

that they enjoyed the most was it.

You ought to know.

Michael Riley: You ought know.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And actually, Bryan, I forgot, I
got a video of that for your wife.

Cuz you

Bryant Gillespie: Oh, yeah.

Yeah, no, definitely.

My wife would be the one, like she would
be in the middle of that, like tearing

off the brawl and throwing it on stage.

Like

Peter Kourounis: What

Michael Riley: it

was like, it was

Bryant Gillespie: smore set fan man.

Huge fan.

Michael Riley: yeah, it was a
really very energetic, wild show.

it was a good time.

I recommend to anybody listening, even if
you can't stand Alanis, morrisette it's

just, it's an incredible performance.

It's something to see.

it's worth going to I, that, I don't
know how she can sing the way she does.

Like it's she's got a voice
that's wild and so good times.

What about you, Brent?

What are you up to.

Bryant Gillespie: It's the
same old same all, man.

I'm just trying to keep
up with these three girls.

We had the babysitter out last week,
so we had the girls at home all week.

Absolutely drove my wife and I crazy.

And, I still was just trying
to catch up on work from that.

So we've been heads down this week.

other than that, not, not much has changed

Michael Riley: You need a vacation

Bryant Gillespie: the staycation,
listening to Peter talk.

I'm gonna go shop for cars.

I've got some of my old friends
from high school that do that.

So that could be like a reunion session
while they tried to reach in my pockets.

Michael Riley: isn't it sad.

This is what COVID has reduced us to
like now, instead of looking forward

to going to Hawaii or something, we're
like, yes, I'm gonna stay home for

a week and shop for a car like this.

this is my vacation.

that's where we're at.

As a society what's happened to us.

It's sad.

Peter Kourounis: Hey,

Bryant Gillespie: I think
that's an age and P.

Age thing, kids thing, man.

Michael Riley: Maybe that's
what it, maybe we've just grown

Bryant Gillespie: when you have a,
when you have three girls and the

youngest is a total Demonn seed,
she was supposed to be the chill

one, but she is a total Demonn man.

Like she gets in her feelings and
then she will hit you, kick you

and totally tear your house down.

She's like the big, bad Wolf in
a, like two foot high package.

that's my youngest

Michael Riley: So the idea
of going on vacation is just

Bryant Gillespie: or taking her even
to a restaurant is an adventure.

I, I took the kids to CVS to pick
up some medication the other day.

And everybody in CVS was just
looking at me and laughing.

And some of them were also
like, what the fuck, man?

Like, why is your kid
running all the aisles?

this was at seven 30, their
bedtime is seven 30 or eight.

So she ran the aisles in CVS
pharmacy made me chase her.

At one point, I actually asked the
cashier, if that was the only exit I

was like, Hey, is that the only exit?

Because she was just all over the place.

So

Michael Riley: Yeah,

Bryant Gillespie: that's
what I'm dealing with.

Michael Riley: that's unfortunate.

Bryant Gillespie: never dull.

We'll say that.

Michael Riley: I'm glad I don't have kids.

It's

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, no, it's
nice when you can give them back.

Now, I say all these things,
but I love my kids for anybody

listening, just so you know,

Michael Riley: he does.

I've witnessed it.

he's a great father.

Despite

Bryant Gillespie: Don't call

Michael Riley: drugstore chasing,
just ignore what they have to say.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

All right.

let's get into the topic today, guys.

What I feel like maybe Peter or my,
you guys should bring the topic today.

I'm the guy that's always doing the topic.

You guys introduce this.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

so this week, instead of picking
on one topic, we're gonna actually

just answer a few questions that
we've received from, our listeners.

So we appreciate you guys
sending questions in and, if

anybody listening has any other
questions hit us up, let us know.

And, we're gonna try and do a few
more of these kind of listener

Q and a, podcast episodes.

So instead of, like I said, picking
on just one topic, we'll try and cover

three or four and answer some questions.

So

Bryant Gillespie: Give
him the email address.

He doesn't know it's.

if you have questions.

You would like us to answer on the
air or, I guess this is recorded.

On the podcast, if you want us to
answer your questions, hit us up.

Hey, H E Y.

I had to think about that for a minute.

Hey, at better sign, shop.com.

Super simple.

Send us your questions.

We'll answer them.

Michael Riley: I'm gonna write that down.

So I don't forget it,

Peter Kourounis: it would be a
really cool idea if we, if in the

platform that we're building, if we
can make like a Q like a submit your

question for the podcast, little form.

Bryant Gillespie: yeah.

Peter Kourounis: I'm pretty neat.

Michael Riley: Yeah,

Bryant Gillespie: Little plug
for the platform there as well.

Peter Kourounis: Hey,

Michael Riley: that'd be cool.

Good idea.

Bryant Gillespie: All

Michael Riley: Peter,

take it away.

What's our first question.

Peter Kourounis: All right.

All right.

So we got our first question here.

I'm gonna read this out here.

I would love to hear an episode that
addresses minimum orders and how

to handle the walk-ins requesting
$50 for lettering and or sign jobs.

Also how minimums might apply to large
accounts that frequently request small

orders of two to three small PVC signs
in between larger orders, for example.

there's a couple of questions there.

It MI mixed in between one major
question and that's about minimum orders.

So how do we handle minimum

orders for walk-in customers
that are requesting $50 jobs?

I have a lot.

I have a lot, I could say about
this, but I'll let you guys,

I'll let you guys go first.

Brian, why don't you, why don't you

Bryant Gillespie: Let's
go with mayor MC cheese.

Just trying that on.

Do you like that one said, but I
couldn't get that costume though.

Really?

Michael Riley: one will pop up
on the, it's almost Halloween.

One of those Halloween stores that show
up in a closed down retail store will

definitely have a mayor MC cheese outfit.

And when it does, I will be wearing

Bryant Gillespie: I think he's the
forgotten McDonald's character.

Michael Riley: was the best too.

Peter Kourounis: All right.

Okay.

So Mike, let's come back to you.

Let's start with you here
for those walk-in customers.

For those shop owners that get a
lot of walk-in customers that are

requesting $50 sign jobs, lettering,
jobs, boat, lettering, car lettering,

whatever it is, do you handle that?

let's just take it one step at a time.

how do you go about addressing
those customers right now?

When it comes to minimum orders?

Michael Riley: I think first and
foremost, you need to decide what kind

of customer you want to service and what
type of work that you want to do, and

then set your minimum order accordingly.

So if you don't really want to do
boat numbers and boat names, and

those little sticker jobs for the
random guy walking off the street,

then set your minimum order is
something that they just can't afford.

So they're just gonna
naturally go someplace else.

I've talked about this before too,
but I also like, to have some place

that I can refer those people to.

So I'm not just sending 'em out on the
street, saying, Hey, I can't do this,

but XYZ sign, shop down the street.

I won't say the name can
handle this little job for you.

I think is, is a, is an
important thing to have.

if you're getting a lot of people
walking in the door for those types

of orders, then you just don't wanna
do, 'em just raise your minimum order

and say, we don't do the type of work.

I I it's, there's nothing
wrong with saying, I'm sorry,

we don't work for individuals.

We only work for businesses or we don't
do race car and boat graphics or whatever.

So I think it's, stepping back from the
immediate question and just determining

the market and that you wanna serve
and the type of work that you wanna

do, has to drive that decision.

and like I said, then set your
minimum order accordingly.

it's, it is a slippery slope
because you know the question.

Clearly says, like how do you apply
minimum orders to larger accounts?

And that's tough because, say you're
working for a commercial realtor

and normally they're doing big four
by eight site signs or bigger ones.

And they're a thousand dollars
plus tickets every time.

But then every once in a while, they're
gonna have a, Hey, we need to change

a single digit on one of these signs.

I just need to cover up DEC out to change
a phone number on one of these signs that

would always fall under your minimum.

You can't really get away with saying
to your biggest customer, sorry.

I gotta charge you my $150 minimum for
that job that should be, $15 or whatever.

So I think you, you have to recognize
where you have to make exceptions to that

as well, and be willing to accommodate.

Clients small requests, in pursuit of the
bigger picture there, which is keeping

them happy and keeping them buying those
thousand dollars jobs from you as well.

but it is a slippery slope and it's
really easy to fall off track with that

and let customers walk all over you too.

So you, part of, it's just, you
gotta have a spine and stand

up with people and say, no,

But you

gotta know when to do that.

Bryant Gillespie: I think this problem
comes like the root of this is when

you first start out, those are the type
of jobs that you cut your teeth on.

especially if you started your own shop.

Like those jobs are like the
average small, tiny vinyl job.

You do a lot of those.

And, when it's just you in a garage
or it's small retail space, those are,

those are still profitable, certainly.

but as you grow, obviously those
are not profitable and you have

to figure out the way out of it.

So I think you've given some good
tactics there as far as, have somebody

to refer those people to just actually.

Have a spine and say, no, Hey, we're
not gonna do this type of work.

I'm going to say something, from our
friend, Dylan Martin, the sales manager

of security signs that we had on our,
one of our recent AMAs within the

Facebook group is qualify, qualify.

so when that person comes
in, you'll qualify them.

They take them through the process, and a
very quickly, if it's just an individual,

you should be able to qualify them out.

but if it is, let's say it's just,
somebody who's the could be like a

vice president of some corporation,
but maybe he does want boat letters,

have a conversation with that person,
suss that out and figure out if that

warrant's doing that particular job.

I really like what you said about having
a guideline instead of a hard and fast.

you gotta have some flexibility
there because certainly those

large clients do come in or call
in and need just like a tiny job.

So you gotta have a firm grasp of your
customer base and understand who your

best clients are and make sure you
educate your team on that as well.

If I've got person at the front
counter who doesn't know that, John's

electrical service is, one of our
best customers, then that's a problem

because they're going to, treat them
the same way that they would, any random

person that walks in off the street.

one of the other ways that I really
like to handle walk-ins is just lock

the doors and go appointment only.

I've talked to a lot of shops that were
forced to go appointment only because of

COVID and it worked out better for them.

So they just stuck with that.

So I really like that approach as well.

Peter, you've got a book on this one,

Peter Kourounis: I do.

Bryant Gillespie: out

Peter Kourounis: Yeah, no, not,

no, I don't have a book on this,
but I have a lot to say about this

and I'm just gonna cut right to it.

I'm gonna give you the short and sweet.

You shouldn't be selling anything
in your shop nowadays for $50.

if you are a shop that's
selling this for $50.

I question.

The level of that you have in your, as a
business owner, you wanna make a quick 50

bucks, but I don't, I'm begged to question
how much profit you're actually making off

of that to interrupt your operations, to
interrupt what you're doing to handle a

walk-in customer, to comes into your shop,
to buy something for $50 is, much time are

you preparing to put that order together?

the end?

How much time are you putting
together to do the estimate, to

do the order to take the money?

I understand that you don't wanna say
no to a customer that walked in a door,

but that's why shops across the country.

Shops in our mastermind shops
in our Facebook group, they've

all raised their prices.

So you have to, and they've
raised their prices for a reason.

Inflation gas is damn
near still $5 a gallon.

there's no way you're
making money on $50 anymore.

even if it's a quick throw black
vinyl into your plotter, cut some

letters out, weed them, mask them.

I be, I bet you, you made like
five bucks on that job, Yeah.

I get it.

The shop owner right now is like,
Ooh, a square foot of black vinyl

is like pennies per square foot.

It costs me pennies.

But on the surface you still
have an overhead expenses.

You have your shop rate, you have labor,
insurance, all of these other things

that are gonna go into each and every
order that you have to take into account.

So walk-in customers that
want something for $50.

They get shown the door.

I think that's the
quickest and easiest way.

I could say that they get shown the door.

They walk in, they walk out, I'll
put a giant sign in my lobby that

says 200, $200 minimum order.

Now I have talked to some shop owners
that don't believe in putting a

minimum order that high, that they
would normally sell a job for $50.

But if it is $50 and let's just for
arguments sake, say it's some D O

T numbers for a truck, they would
immediately double their price.

So I normally charge 50.

I would charge them a hundred and I've
been okay with that strategy from a few

different perspectives, but then I wonder.

those shop owners that are saying a
hundred dollars, isn't worth their time.

I guess that depends on
the size of your shop.

If you have 30 people working under
your guidance there, a hundred

dollars, doesn't push the needle.

If you're a two or three man shop and you
can take that a hundred dollars and then

go buy lunch for your team, alright, you
can, and you have some time available

then maybe your plotter is not running.

I can see that working for
different size shops, but you

have to double your normal price.

And, in my shop for D O T letters,
I didn't sell it for less than $150.

one color cut vinyl, 150 bucks.

I would interrupt my operations for that.

But now I've raised that price as well.

So for smaller shops, you could
certainly do that strategy as well.

If you didn't want to put
in a minimum order amount.

Now, the second question

here from the same person is how
does this apply with larger accounts

that frequently request to three
orders, in, in a short frequency.

I think this is the wrench.

this is the wrench in
that equation there, Mike.

So let's kind of circle back to you first.

we talked about minimums and I
stand that, $50 is not something,

but if you have a, an account.

First of all.

I question how my, in my opinion,
how large of an account are they, if

they are buying $50 items from you,
I wouldn't consider that a large

account, but I'd like to hear from you
guys first, what you would do here.

If they're ordering in more
frequency, do, are you a little

bit more lenient on those minimums?

Michael Riley: before I answer
that, I want to back up and also

talk about the idea of a minimum, a
quote, unquote minimum order, just

from more like an abstract level.

I don't really like using
the term minimum order.

And if a client says, Hey, I need this.

And you say, okay, well that's under our
minimum, so I've gotta charge you this

$200 or whatever it is that immediately
puts kind of a negative feeling in that

customer's mind, oh, I'm not big enough
for them, or they're gonna charge me

a lot more than this really should be.

Just because they feel like it's
too big of a convenient, like

there's some negative feelings
that are gonna be attached to that

from the customer's, standpoint.

So I'm on the fence on how I feel
about even saying, Hey, we have

this minimum charge and it's this.

And putting that out there and hanging
up a sign that says our minimum order

is X dollars and telling customers,
Hey, you're under our minimum.

It just makes them feel
small and insignificant.

And really if you really wanna get
down to it, The, I, you don't need

a minimum if you're pricing things
correctly anyway, because no matter

what the size of that job is, even if
it's really small, if you're really

pricing it the way you should be pricing
it and doing your math and making

sure you're covering your overhead.

And like you said, Peter, the time to sit
there and talk to the customer and design

it and write up the invoice and collect
the check and take the check to the bank.

I there's time in that.

And if you're doing estimating and pricing
correctly, you're accounting for all that.

And just by, by accounting for all
that, by default, you're charging what

your minimum should be for that job.

Anyway, you just gotta think about it
a little bit and do the math correctly.

And I, so I think it, I think a lot
of shops could benefit from taking

that approach by just saying, instead
of you're under a minimum ceremony

charge 200 bucks, but just saying.

This job costs this much period, and you
don't really, there's not really a need to

explain why it costs that much, or whether
it's under minimum or anything like that.

Just tell em, this is
what it's gonna cost you.

I think there's a little psychological
warfare there with this that I think

you can overcome by just charging what
you gotta charge for it, regardless

of what the job is and that which is
gonna make your minimum fluctuate,

depending on what the job is.

If it's a, it's a vinyl decal or
something like that, it's probably

gonna be less of a minimum than a,
a real estate sign or something.

But I think you can go a long
way towards making the customer

feel better about using you.

If you don't immediately step
onto this negative, you're under

our minimum because your job is
so insignificant kind of stance.

Bryant Gillespie: Mayor MCee with
the, the killer answer there.

I like that a lot, man.

Michael Riley: It's not something that
I did in my shop and, you know, having

sold my shop and look back, I think
like it's kind of shitty of me in a

way to like, you know, tell customers
like, nah, you're just not important.

So I gotta charge you a arm
and a leg to make time for you.

that's kind of how it comes across.

and I've really started thinking about
that now that I've dealt with other

businesses and companies a lot more.

and I've been the customer being
told that that doesn't really feel

that good from a customer standpoint.

But if the price was the same, if I
went to a garage and I, needed some

work done on my vehicle and they
said, ah, you're under a minimum.

So I gotta charge you this versus
I've gotta charge you this.

Or this is the price.

I would've thought a lot better if they
just said, this is what it's gonna cost

you versus you're under our minimum.

So I've gotta charge you this.

Peter Kourounis: So let me push
back on that just a minute.

Cuz I am a shop that uses the term
order, minimum order a lot, but

it often precedent before the next
statement, which is, is there anything

else that you can get or that you
would want to get to that minimum?

we use it as a upselling
opportunity, right?

we are pricing correctly.

Our formulas are pretty concrete,
but we have a $200 minimum.

So if there's, if that A-frame
sign is not what they're, I'm

sorry, let me use another one.

if that real estate sign for $80 is
not hitting that minimum, then I might

use that for maybe let's get two or
three and let's maybe get you some

business cards or some other things.

Do you want it installed?

I'll use that as a way
to get there, right?

Maybe it actually end up with a price
that's over $200 in most cases, because I

use it as an opportunity to present value.

So what do you, what would you say to
the shops that are doing it that way in

terms of the terminology of minimum order?

Michael Riley: That's the way I
approached it at my shop too, was Hey,

I got charge you $200 for this, but
for that $200, instead of giving you

one sticker, I'm gonna give you 15.

And that, that usually helped put the
customer's mind at ease a little bit.

at least I'm getting more than one
for that money, but I don't know.

I still feel a little bit differently
about it now than I did back then.

just being on the other side
of the equation a little bit

more, And it's a tough one.

I don't really know if there's
a good answer to that because a

lot of it's gonna depend on the
exact, the type of sign it is.

it's gonna change a lot depending on
what it is, but I guess I would ask,

like, why is your two, your minimum $200?

Like where is that?

and I'm not questioning that's a bad idea.

I'm just curious how you came up with the
number $200 or what justifies it to you.

And then secondly, let's say your
$80 real estate sign example, right?

if you, minimum is $200, but you can
manufacture this product for $80,

one of those is the real number.

Peter Kourounis: I think the reason
why your minimums are probably

elevated or your minimum order has
now been installed is because of

what's going on in the industry.

our suppliers there's supply chain issues.

There are people asking
more money for payroll.

I've brought in a salesperson which
elevated my shop rate per hour.

So when you really look at my 75
$80 an hour shop rate, and then you

look at the materials and then the
profit margins that you wish to make

in order to be in this business.

You're in that $200 threshold.

That's what's gonna push the
needle for us in my shop.

It may not be your shop for
the listeners out there.

Not advising you to take $200, but
I have a six or seven person shop.

And my overhead, my shop rate
is a little about 80 bucks.

Now it used to be 45 when I first started.

I'm in that area of I'm in that area
of, having to pay a lot more money for

good labor, have to pay for materials
that are elevated in by the suppliers.

And I'm not in this to
make 10 bucks on a job.

I don't that

doesn't push the needle.

Michael Riley: so you're basically,
you're in a roundabout way.

You're saying there's an economy
of scale there manufacturing.

So it costs you a lot more to manufacture
one of those real estate signs.

And it does manufacture for five of
'em because you're, you're compounding

the labor to make it's the same labor
to make one is it doesn't make five.

Which goes back to what I'm saying
is if somebody comes in and says they

want a one, single real estate sign is
$80, really like the cost of that, or

shouldn't that really be priced on a
sliding scale based on the quantity and

manufacturing efficiencies, included
in that if you want one of these,

things being equal, this really is going
to CU it's going, I gotta charge you $200.

Not cause that's a minimum.

It's just what it takes me to manufacture
it and I'll make my margin on it.

Peter Kourounis: there was once a day
as a science job owner, where if a

real estate agent came in and said, I
needed one estate sign for my, for sale

sign to put in a lawn, it would be $80.

There was once a day where that was the
case, but a little bit of education, a

little bit of learning what it takes to
be a successful business in this market.

If that real estate agent came in
and said, listen, I'm a new agent.

I want, I need to get some signs.

I'd tell 'em.

how many listings do you have or
how many listings do you want?

Now that I'm talking to them about their
business, providing the value and saying,

you're gonna need open house signs.

You're gonna need, if you're gonna have
at least three listings, you're gonna

need at least three, four sale signs.

You're gonna need some business cards,
some listing brochures and flyers.

So I'm now getting them over that minimum.

Where, okay.

Yeah, there is the quantity scale or
the volume scale of how much those signs

should be, because I know now we're
talking a little bit, I'm not talking to

a customer that wants to buy for $200,
talking to a customer that wants to buy

maybe even $2,000 worth of signage to
get their business going again, maybe.

And that goes

back to the very first thing that you
said is what type of customer do you want?

And that's the type of
customer I, I work with.

I don't work with agents that come in
and say, I need one open house sign

and tell 'em it's $200 or it, or,
and, or there's the door, because it's

gotta be that way.

Doesn't push the needle for me
in my shop to do an $80 job.

Michael Riley: So what we're, so
essentially we're saying the same

thing, we're just presenting it to
the customer two different ways.

You're just saying my minimum's 200 bucks
and that sign is under that minimum.

So you've gotta buy a few
to justify the cost of that.

And I'm saying, instead of saying
it's under the minimum, I'm just

saying, why not present it as, Hey
one costs $200, two costs, a hundred

dollars, a piece, three costs.

$80 a piece.

And so in that way, they're, you're
empowering that customer to, make

the decision, to spend more money
versus like trying to backdoor

them in to spending more money.

and I'm not saying that's a
bad, I'm not trying to knock you

when I say that, Peter, I hope
you don't take offense of that.

I'm just, I'm saying that's the perception
from the customer sometimes I think,

and I've felt that when I've been
told, Hey, that's under the minimum,

but if I were given, the choice of
spending $200 on one or $250 on three,

and a price breakdown accordingly, I
feel like, Hey, I made a good decision

Peter Kourounis: I hear
what you're saying.

I think the approach is
just how you phrase it.

I think you've been

Michael Riley: That's what I'm saying.

Peter Kourounis: been, you haven't been
a big fan of saying my minimum order is,

but if you're phrasing this in a way where
one is 200, Two is $100, whatever it is.

And you're giving the customer the
connotation of being a positive

customer experience, still allowing
them to make a decision then yes,

that's that consultative approach
that I'm very much in love with, but

let's get back to that question here.

What if it's a big client, how
are you handling the customer

from a per perspective of $50
items being proposed there?

Michael Riley: no good

answer for that.

Bryant Gillespie: it's like
Nike, baby, you just do

Michael Riley: You just do it

Bryant Gillespie: on you gotta qualify
the account, obviously like a large

account for shop a, maybe $25,000 a
year, whereas, a large account for

somebody else, maybe a hundred thousand
dollars a year, $300,000 a year.

So you obviously gotta
qualify the account.

and we don't have any hard numbers
here in the question of what's a

large account, but if it's a good
account and they spend a lot of money

with me, I'm gonna take care of them
because that's that's business, baby.

Michael Riley: You have to, you
can't give those guys a reason to go

someplace else for the cheap stuff,
because that place is gonna try

to get the rest of their work too.

And if that place is willing to sell
the cheap stuff, they're probably gonna

undercut you in price everywhere else.

So it's one of those situations where
they've got you between a rock and a

hard place, and you sorta, you gotta
play ball with them a little bit, like

you said, I it, you can't completely
shoot yourself in the foot and, lose

money,

Bryant Gillespie: have to make.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I still have to make money on the job

Michael Riley: you've

gotta treat them.

You've gotta treat them fairly
and yourself fairly, I think.

and a lot of times that means not,
letting them under your minimum or,

I talked about this on a previous
episode, two about the idea of.

having a way to fast track jobs through
your shop, whether it's setting up

a assigned shop with an assigned
shop, if you're larger and you've

got a, a dedicated small production
department with one person that's just

there for rush jobs and, or running
those small types of jobs through.

I if you're bigger and you can justify
doing that's a way to squeeze those

jobs through for the good customers
in a more efficient manner without

completely losing money on the job.

If you were to just, you don't have
to insert that into your typical

or your regular daily workflow.

Not everybody can justify doing
that, but if you can, it's a way to

ease the pain on this and be able
to service those clients better.

but.

But unfortunately the reality is if wanna
keep those big customers happy and coming

back to you, sometimes that means you've
gotta break your own rules and essentially

do them some favors here and there.

and a smart shop owner is gonna figure
out, what their needs are gonna be, and

try to predict that as much as possible,
and maybe have these things ready to

go on the shelf, or maybe you work out
a way if they're just buying, the same

things over and over again, but they
just need 'em on a as needed basis.

Maybe maybe you inventory them for
them and just pull 'em off a shelf.

and that way you can take
advantage of that, quantity,

volume, manufacturing, efficiency.

Bryant Gillespie: I like that.

It goes back to Peter's consultative
approach, Hey, why are they buying

these two to three small PVC signs?

is it like, are they doing that regularly?

Or, yeah, maybe you could, like you
said, sell them more warehouse 'em for

them, provide some value somewhere else.

So like they come in they're on the

Michael Riley: Or even if it's a
different phone number every time,

maybe it's just a, you have the blanks
precut and PREPA for them ready to go.

And

Peter Kourounis: that's a
good, that's a good strategy.

If this is something that they're ordering
a lot of, you might wanna prepare some

inventory to make it easier to produce.

That's interesting.

I have a small take on
this, just a small take.

I agree with everything.

Brian said, you just
gotta go ahead and do it.

you signed up that account.

There in my eyes, there is a difference
between a customer and an account.

I don't know how you guys feel about
this, but in my shop, whenever I've

trained some sign shop owners, they've
always talked about getting the customer

and nurturing them to become an account.

The sign shop owners that make 10
to 12, 15 million out there, work

their accounts and all, and get 80%
of their business from their current

accounts that they are working with.

So nurturing people from an customer to
an account is, is part of that strategy.

Now, what is the difference in,
what are the benefits of either when

somebody becomes an account, maybe your
it's your shop policy to install no

minimums because they are in account.

This is a value add to become
an account with your customer or

with your, with your business.

if you're treating your.

if this was phrased as a, how do I
handle those everyday large customers?

I would say, first you have
to turn those customers into

accounts and then nurture them.

But if you are handling, if you're,
there are no minimums with accounts,

whatever they want is what you're going
to give them because they are an account.

Now, some shirt, some shops will still
have their order minimums, and those

accounts will know those minimums.

But for tho for us everyday shops
that are small, medium size.

If you wanna take a customer and turn
them into an account where they're

gonna order from you all the time, and
you're gonna enforce, volume discounts

and maybe, some eCommerce way of buying
products from you for ease of customer

experience, take the minimums out.

That's my advice.

Take the minimums out because
that's a value add to become an

account, working with your shop.

Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna go
on record here and say that I

don't like the term large account.

I like good account or great account
instead of large, because to me, and

especially at this stage of my career,
I wanna work with people that I trust.

I like doing business with.

so I would qualify that as a good
account, if it's a good account, that

means there's mutual trust and respect.

And these guys aren't gonna be
taking advantage of you all the time.

if they are, that could be a bad account.

if they're constantly hoing me for Hey,
let's say they spend $25,000 a year with

me, but every week I've got rush jobs.

And there are these tiny little
PVC signs that we're talking about.

To me, that's a, not a great
account, because there's not

that mutual respect there.

I wanna work with people that are good
accounts that like, Hey, shit happens.

like the customers are gonna no
different than in a, in our shop.

The customers are gonna have
some shit come up and they

need somebody to help 'em out.

And that's why we're here.

So if it's a good relationship, there's
naturally some give and take there.

Peter Kourounis: Good point.

Good point.

Good point.

Very good point.

I like that a lot.

All right, let's go to
our second question here.

that's a great, that was a great
first topic or good question.

I enjoyed that one.

I hope our listeners did here too.

How much should you be paying
yourself as the owner of a sign shop?

Bam, right in your face hits you with
the most frequently asked question that

I get with all my sign shop clients.

How much should I be buying myself?

If I'm a first time sign shop owner.

If I'm a, if I've been in this business
for five years, am I paying myself enough?

I love this question.

I think.

on the mind of any sign shop owner.

I see.

Brian's raising his hand.

Brian, what would you
like to say here first?

Bryant Gillespie: $1 million,

Peter Kourounis: you should
be paying yourself what Bryan.

Bryant Gillespie: $1 million.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah, I don't
know about that, but, maybe if

you had like a larger operation,
you could be doing that, but no.

How do, how do we tackle this here, Mike?

how do we go about factoring in how much
somebody should be paying themselves?

where do we even start with that question?

Michael Riley: it's, that is
the million dollar question.

the advice that I'm, I have been given
time and time again, is to pay yourself

a reasonable, small salary, whatever
that may be something that's in line

with, upper management at your business,
whatever that looks like to your business,

and then, take owner draws periodically.

but don't think you should go
into it trying to pay yourself

some humongous and, exorbitant
paycheck cuz they're, you're just.

too much in taxes.

so yeah, small base salary plus
draws as needed outta the profit.

I obviously a lot of that's gonna depend
on what, how much money your business

makes and how healthy it is financially.

And that's only, only, you know
that, but, it should be at the end

of the day or at the end of the year,
it should be more than you would,

make working for somebody else.

That's for sure.

so I'll say that, there's a
lot of perks owning a business

that, that become, de facto pay.

I used to Bartter and trade everything
that I could, and that's a great way to

save tax money and still get a lot of
stuff that you'd otherwise pay cash for.

And that becomes income as well.

but I don't know, beyond that.

Peter Kourounis: All
right, Brian, I'll come

to you.

Bryant Gillespie: first and
foremost, it definitely depends on

the stage that you're at, right?

If you're a one man operation, you're
doing a hundred thousand dollars in

sales, that's totally different than
if you've got $2 million in revenue and

you've got 20 people working for you.

So it is very difficult for us to say,
Hey, the number is 50,000 or 75,000 as a

salary or a hundred thousand or 200,000,
it's not gonna be possible for us to

throw out a number that's gonna work here.

but I'm in favor of what
Mike says that you gotta pay

yourself a reasonable salary.

And all too often, I talk to owners and
they forget this, that and especially

if you're not just an owner, If you're
involved in the day to day operations,

you've gotta pay pay yourself, a salary
there, but as an owner, you should

be able to make profit on that as

Peter Kourounis: that's the
answer I was looking for.

Yes.

I, 100% agree with that while we can't
tell you how much you should be paying,

you have to factor in the first question.

Are you a key employee for your operation?

If you are, if you do all the design
work for your business, because

you might be a graphic designer,
if you do all the installs for your

wraps, because you were certified
as your wrap shops, wrap installer.

If you do all the installs for your
sign shop, because you enjoy being in

the bucket and installing those big
exterior signs, you have to consider

yourself a paid employee for those tasks.

you have to, you can't do that
work for free and just live off

the profits of your business.

You have to pay yourself a salary for the,
what that role is that could be, you can

reduce your salary if you'd like to be, to
make a little bit more on the profit side,

but you have to be, it has to be fair.

and just as the words that I would
use in terms of that, now, if you

are an owner and that's all you do is
own the business and you layered in a

general manager to run the operations.

That's a different conversation because as
an owner, You can make just the profits,

the returns on the business each year
and consider the owner discretionary,

the owner, discretionary expenses of
the benefits of being a business owner.

And I think Mike was alluding to
some of that with the bartering and

things of that nature, but you can
expense almost anything you want for

personal expenses through the business.

you, your gas and being one of them.

You'll if your car payment, if you
use your car for your business,

you can expense that as well.

All of those pieces are
the owner benefits to.

To your business.

And I think that's something to be
going into this as well, is that you

could take into all the benefits of
business ownership when accounting for

what that salary should be coming in.

If you're age, if you're a passive
owner, semi passive like myself,

I don't take a salary, in my shop.

I don't because I live, I'm happy just
making the return on the investment, the

return to net profits and distributing
that between me and my business partner.

I don't find it to be anything more
because I'm not a key employee.

I'm not sitting in the shop every day.

I'm not in the shop doing installs
or design work every day, putting

in 50, 40 hours a week, any longer.

That was what I was doing before.

So if you're like me, if you're a
sign shop owner like myself, listening

to this, that might be your answer.

But if you are a qualified
employee, Doing anything in the

shop that makes your shop run.

You have to consider yourself an
employee as well and pay yourself a

fair and just, wage for that role.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

O otherwise, when you go to
sell or exit the business, you

just shoot yourself in the foot.

Because if you try to sell to somebody
who's gonna be a passive owner or, or

a semi passive owner, as you mentioned,
they've gotta find somebody to replace

you, presumably, unless you're gonna
continue to work in the business.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

And think about that.

How many shop owners do we talk
to every week that are in very

infused in their operation?

If you took them out, their
business doesn't exist.

So you have to be paying yourself because
if you ever wanted to talk about an exit

strategy, selling your business or selling
it to your partner or whatever the case

is, When you look at your profit and loss,
if there's a zero next to your labor.

I, one of my first questions
is how much are you paying?

How much are you getting?

And if that number is not reflected
well, then your business numbers

are a little skewed and that might
make it a little bit more of a

challenge to, to exit your business.

So you definitely want to
include what you're paying

yourself on your books as well.

That's just a little helpful
tip, little factoid there as

part of that second question.

Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna give the, I'm
gonna give the end all be all on this one.

Peter Kourounis: ahead.

Bryant Gillespie: get an expert accountant
and potentially a financial advisor and

work with them to go over your numbers and

Michael Riley: Yeah.

I a hundred percent agree with that.

Do not try to figure
this out for yourself.

if you own a business act like
it hire a financial planner.

you just, you need to do that.

You, any business owner, who's more than
minimum wage working in their business.

They've got assets that they
need to protect and take care of.

And they've got tax burdens
that they need to minimize and

you can't do that on your own.

I don't care how smart you think you are.

You're not a, you're not a
financial expert signed guys.

So don't try to be one, hire a
financial planner, hire, a good CPA

and pay them well to do what they
do, cuz they're gonna make you money.

And they're gonna make
sure you don't get audited.

Bryant Gillespie: we're gonna get flamed
on the Facebook groups now, because you

said you can't be a financial expert and

Michael Riley: yeah.

I'm I'm sure we'll get somebody
who disagrees with, but.

Good.

Good luck.

Bryant Gillespie: Okay.

All right.

I'm gonna do the intro
on this next question.

This is from one of the
Facebook groups, the sign shop

talk, or sign industry groups.

How can I get new leads
for my sign company?

I feel like this is a huge one.

We could probably do a
whole episode on this one.

the second question is what
has worked well for you all.

so this is one of those ones that
just man, people throw this out there

and you see like people just blasting
the shotgun approach on this one.

So I'm curious to hear your guys' take

Peter Kourounis: Hey, man, I gotta tell
you, these are these three questions.

These are amazing questions.

I think that they are very
heavily talked about and

discussed topics in this industry.

So we recently did an episode
about marketing and we talked a

little bit about how do you get
your leads and things like that.

So we definitely encourage
you to watch that episode.

on our marketing efforts, but what's
worked well for me being that I'm a sign

shop owner and these other guys are not,
one of those really interesting things is

that I really enjoy creating a strategy
around the product that I want to sell.

so that includes like landing pages,
press releases, articles, testimonials

from customers where we'll talk,
like if I wanted to do something on,

I don't know, let's just call it.

let's see.

let me think of one.

I've done recently.

Sign service.

Okay.

Sign service.

you're fixing broken signs.

Okay.

That is a profitable
service for my business.

I got a couple of bucket trucks.

I got a couple of tech missions.

I need to fix the signs that are
looking decrepit in my local market.

You like that word?

Decrepit?

I like that word.

anyway.

So I created a whole strategy around.

This particular case, so to attract new
business, so that included Facebook ads,

directing them to my landing page for them
to fill out a form, to upload the picture

of their sign for instant quotes, paper,
click ads, also, competition ads as well.

Like I'd like to piggyback off the
keywords of what my competitors are

doing in this space, but it's all
directing them into the funnel for which.

New leads are coming in for people
that are saying, Hey, my sign's

broken and I need to get it fixed.

And how much is it to get fixed?

that's the question that you have to
answer on those landing pages, but

I'm directing now in influx of new
customers based off of sign service.

So I'm showing pictures of like really
funny looking signs when letters are out.

I'm, I'll post up a couple
in the Facebook group here.

So you could see a couple of funny
ones that really make those ads

engaging, but that's been working for
me to get new leads in the company.

and you could do that with almost
any service, if you want to, if

you wanna specialize in real estate
signs, make real estate landing pages.

If you wanna specialize in, color
conversions on cars or paint correction,

or, Paint protection, whatever it is that
you wanna do, you can do those as well.

Channel letters, monument signs,
way finding signage, you could do

all sorts of really creative ad
strategies based around directing that

to specific built out landing pages
and a nice funnel into your system.

At least that's my advice on
what's worked well for me lately.

Bryant Gillespie: the key for me and what
you said there, Peter is you narrowed

down your focus on signed service in this
instance, too many people don't qualify

that Hey, I just wanna grow my shop.

I want more customers.

And my first question is always,
what kind of customers do you want?

And they're like the kind that
pay the kind that have money.

I value money.

That was one of the responses.

The other day.

Other Facebook group was I value money.

I was like, well, me too.

And I want more customers.

But, when you narrow that focus down, it
becomes way easier to give you something.

Action.

So just like you said, Hey, I
wanna promote sign service, but

we haven't done enough of that.

Or, Hey, that's actual really profitable
for us because we, make connections

with other customers that, that may have
not purchased the sign from us before.

so once you narrow down that focus,
it becomes really a lot easier.

So you could do that based on the service
that you're trying to pitch or sell like

service or channel letters or exterior
signs or, vehicle wraps, whatever that is.

You could also do that
based on customers as well.

Hey, I want to work with commercial
real estate agents, or I wanna work with

developers that are building condos.

I wanted to work with marketing
managers at larger corporations.

and once you do that, getting those SI
those leads that you want, that's the

first step, it becomes a lot easier when
you know what it is you're trying to

sell or who you're trying to sell it to.

because then you can do some
more research, find out you where

those marketing managers hang out,
what they do, how they, how did

they go about purchasing signs?

what is that purchasing process like
for that particular type of customer?

and Hey, that really informs
your marketing efforts.

So then you could go after that group
of people specifically, like either in

Facebook ads, as you mentioned, cold
emailing, some of those people with, just

like a quick little email about, Hey,
here's what we could help you guys with.

Here's some other company
that we helped with.

so yeah, I think that's the first step
in, in this process is narrow your focus

on what clients you wanna serve or, or
what you're actually, what type of leads

Michael Riley: Yeah,
that's really good advice.

Bryant.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah, let me ask you
this, Brian, since you're like the

marketing guru out of the three of
us, I consider you more of a marketing

expert than myself.

Maybe.

I don't know how Mike feels, but wanna
make sure I give you the accolades there

Bryant Gillespie: tell
my wife that I'm a guru?

I feel like she would be very

Peter Kourounis: Oh yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: to a guru.

Peter Kourounis: let me ask you this
because I get the sense that we have a

ton of sign shop owners, both small and
large that are doing paper, click ads.

Google ads and bunching up all
their services into one ad.

Like we're a sign shop for signs.

We do interior exterior
trade show, real estate.

We do car wraps, vehicle wraps,
awnings channel letters, monuments,

and everything else in between.

How do you think that strategy works?

Bryant Gillespie: I, I think on
some levels it probably does.

Or people wouldn't do it.

yeah.

something is better.

Something is better than nothing.

I'll start with that.

I think if you're, if you haven't, if
you're not running any ads, as we talked

about, and one of the first episodes that
we did, you gotta keep the faucet running.

if you're not running ads now
and you start running ads, that's

better than not running ads.

Assuming you've got the budget for it.

but, I certainly think there's
better approaches where, like we

just talked about that you, you
should be just blanketing, Hey,

we're the most amazing sign shop.

Hey, we do everything.

we I'm of the mindset that when you,
this might have been a quote from,

maybe Seth Goden or something like that.

And maybe I'm still in this from
Mike, I'm not sure, but like when you

speak to everyone, you're talking to
no one, that's the that's like the,

my take on marketing in a nutshell
is if you're saying everybody is our,

you're gonna have a really hard time
versus the shop that has narrowed down

and said, okay, we serve developers.

We make the process of selling your
condo or your apartment building

twice as easy as the next guy.

and that's huge.

and then, certainly you could run
ads on that you could do specific

targeting on Facebook is really
good for that type of targeting.

if you are doing Google ads, you could
set up those ads around those keywords.

It goes back to what your customer
is actually searching for.

But, yeah, I think that's the way to
approach it instead of just shotgun

blasting, random ads for we do everything,

Michael Riley: And let's not forget too,
like the value of just like human face to

face networking as well, which I think is
ignored a lot with, the rise of internet

marketing and click per pay or pay per
click ads and everything like that.

But.

just go interface with people
that are, are your market.

And I'm, I have mixed emotions about
most networking groups, like BNI type

groups and stuff like that, where
you've got, 15 people sitting around a

table in the morning and one of 'em is
a dentist and one of 'em is a realtor.

And one of they're gonna generate
some leads for you, but they're

not gonna be very targeted leads.

And like Brian said, I it's you're
putting yourself in those groups and

telling 'em that you're everything to
everybody all the time, which really

just makes you nothing and nobody.

but there are much more targeted ways to
network with people that you can really

get in the door with the industries
and clients that you wanna serve.

if you do a lot of say hospital
signage and ADA sign packages for large

commercial buildings or office buildings,
things like that, like there are.

There are groups specifically for
building owners and, property managers and

building managers and things like that.

And if you cultivate relationships in
groups like that, you, that becomes a

really great referral network for you
for the type of work that you wanna do.

it takes a long time though.

I think that's the problem with a lot of
that face to face type networking is it's,

there's not a, not an immediate return
on it, cuz you're building a relationship

with somebody you need to prove to these
people that they can trust you and that

you can live up to, their expectations.

and when you've proven yourself, then
they become an amazing source of leads.

They become a lead generator for you.

They're happy client is a better
salesperson than, your own salesperson,

a hundred percent of the time.

approaching your clients like that
and your networking efforts like that?

I think really goes a long way
towards, creating a built in lead

generator without having to do a whole
lot of work outside of be present.

Bryant Gillespie: Oh, sorry.

I missed what

Michael Riley: look like
a deer in headlights.

Bryant Gillespie: Oh yeah.

My wife came in.

Peter Kourounis: heard that we called you
a guru and was like, who are these idiots?

Bryant Gillespie: I think
something else that Mike said

there is really key as well.

Is there whether you're running ads
or, doing face to face networking,

making cold calls, cold, whatever.

there are no shortcuts to doing, to
being successful at generating new leads.

there's some things have a quicker
return than others, but to do it well

and be successful with it, it takes time.

don't go into any of these strategies
thinking you're gonna turn around

and get a hundred leads by spending
a hundred dollars on Facebook ads

or that you're gonna go to one
networking event and come away with a

hundred thousand dollars in business.

it's just not how it works.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah,
you gotta keep at it.

You have to keep pushing.

It's gotta be part of
your everyday routine.

It's gotta be part of your monthly
strategy bus, hiring a business

development managers and other
opportunity that's worked really

well for us is somebody that's
being the face of your business.

And.

Going out and introducing some
introducing yourself to some

companies and things of that nature.

But one thing that's actually really
well done well with us with that

service angle is that it really does
get you in front of business owners

with a, in a warm lead kind of way.

Like their sign is broken.

They know it is and where they're,
we're coming there to help them fix it.

And then that often leads to conversations
about new signage or valuing the

repair versus getting something new.

And also the other services that
we can then, sell this customer.

So if you're not doing service,
I find it to be very lucrative.

If that's something that also, you
guys want to jump into there, this was

Bryant Gillespie: don't wanna
jump into science service.

Peter Kourounis: I don't wanna jump
into, I didn't wanna jump into it either

until I found out how profitable it was.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

one tactic that I've got for that.

Now, maybe I've said this on
one of the other episodes.

I'm not sure where I picked this
up, but if you wanna do service.

and you're looking for more leads,
find somebody's kid that's 16 that

just got a license offer to pay them
X amount per lead that they generate.

They drive around, go find
signs that are broken.

Take a picture of it.

Note the address, try to get contact
info, set them up like a simple

job form or something like that.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah, we call
those people night Watchers and,

and we pay them and we pay them
a dollar, a photo, a dollar of

Bryant Gillespie: a dollar of photo.

Peter Kourounis: of submiss submission.

They can, if they go around
often enough, believe it or.

The people that are also doing
night watch for me are also Uber

drivers, Uber, each drivers, or Uber

Bryant Gillespie: Ah,

yeah, there you go.

Peter Kourounis: so we, some of them,
I pay them $2 if they're not doing them

as frequently, but if they drove five
miles, they might find 20 signs that

are broken and get paid $20 or $40.

It's really great little, side hustle that
we've created with our night watch team.

And yes, they're often very
young, new drivers, just looking

to make a good, whatever.

However many they submit
is how much they make.

then we call them in the morning
we schedule appointments and we're

out doing service the next day.

Little great tip there.

Bryant Gillespie: Love it.

Love it.

I like this format guys.

I think it was a great episode.

Great questions.

Peter Kourounis: me too.

Keep those questions coming.

Bryant Gillespie: If you have
questions for us, you'd like them to

be answered on the podcast by a guru.

everybody wants to be a guru.

Honestly, I don't call me a guru.

I don't.

I take that back.

You could tell my wife I'm a guru though.

that looks good for me.

Uh, but, uh, if, if you've got
questions, you'd like the three of

us to answer on the podcast, email us
at Hey, better sign, shop.com again.

That's Hey, better sign.

shop.com.

Shall we get into, rapid takeaways?

Peter Kourounis: There's three questions.

There's three of us.

We'll take one of us for each
takeaway for each question.

Okay.

How's that sound?

Bryant Gillespie: Mayor MC cheese

Michael Riley: minimums.

Think about how you present your minimums
to your customer and consider just

charging what you should for a sign.

Instead of telling a customer you've
gotta charge 'em a minimum and see if it.

Presents an opportunity to make a
happy customer and sell more signs.

All

right.

how much should you be paying
yourself as the owner of a sign shop?

Peter.

Peter Kourounis: 1 million?

Michael Riley: That's why I chose

Peter Kourounis: No, no, no, no.

Michael Riley: you.

Did it

Peter Kourounis: I had to do it.

I had to throw it in there.

Give him my, give him my,
give him my impression, how

much you be charging yourself.

Listen, you guys gotta look at what you're
doing in your jobs and make a just and

fair assessment of what that is valued
at as your business take into account.

Some of the other pieces, how
much you're able to expense.

And some of the other benefits of being
an owner like Mike said, consider the

draw a low salary, a draw each week
as a really great opportunity there.

But also like we all said here consult
with a CPA, a financial advisor,

financial planner on having you help
or helping you make those, those

final decisions there Bryant the

marketing guy.

I didn't call you a

guru.

The marketing guy,

Bryant Gillespie: I appreciate that.

How can I get new leads
for my signed company?

Narrow down your focus, narrow down
your focus, pick the customers you

wanna serve that will inform how you
go about getting those new leads.

It is as simple as that.

Peter Kourounis: Very good.

Bryant Gillespie: If you like the podcast,
definitely check out our mastermind group.

You could find that on the website,
better sign, shop.com, poke around.

You'll find it.

we've also got a Facebook
group for shop owners.

It's exclusively for shop owners.

we've gotta answer some
questions before we let you in.

We do AMAs there with experts.

We've got a group chat
with all the owners.

There, there are no topics that
are off limits pricing is allowed.

and there's some other deep
discussions that we go into that

obviously I cannot talk about here.

It's all top secret stuff.

Check us out.