Better Sign Shop Podcast

Learn how to build a better
sign and print shop from a few

crusty sign guys who've made more
mistakes than they care to admit.

Conversations and advice on
pricing, sales, marketing,

workflow, growth, and more.

You are listening to The Better
Sign Shop podcast with your

hosts, Peter Unis, Michael Riley

and Bryant Gillespie.

Before we jump into the episode,
I'd like to give a shout out to

our sponsor, G C I Digital Imaging
Grand Format Printer to the Trade.

We talk a lot about outsourcing on the
podcast and the importance of having a.

Good partners and G C I Digital
Imaging is a good partner to have.

Owner TJ Beak and his team focus on
providing killer customer service just

the way grandmother used to make it.

If you're interested in learning
their approach to business, hop

back into the archives to episode
nine where the guys and I interview

TJ about customer experience.

So if you're looking for a high quality
trade printer for banners, wraps,

and other printed graphics that your
customers throw at you, check out

GCI Digital [email protected].

Alright guys, welcome back to another
episode of the Better Sign Shop podcast.

As always, while Peter, the sign
shop, Yoda is missing in action

today, I think he's on vacation.

Uh, so kudos to you, Peter.

Enjoy vacation.

My other co-host, Michael,
the Sign Design Magic.

Mike Samurai.

Chimichanga Chimichanga Burrito.

Tito The the All Around Sign guys.

Sign guy.

Michael Riley.

How are you my friend?

Good,

how are you?

You look good in the, the, the sweater

there, the sweat.

Yeah.

You know what, it was like 95 degrees
here last week and this week it's 50.

We've got the heat on.

It's ah, have the flu before
long with this crazy weather.

Yeah.

Never on the East coast.

We've been slammed with rain.

I got to spend Memorial Day cleaning up
my basement, which was, uh, had a nice bit

of standing water in it, so that was fun.

That's always fun.

That, that makes me, one of the
few things that makes me thankful

that I don't have a basement.

I've been there a few times
and it's always a nightmare.

It was supposed to be a man cave.

It is actually a kid's playroom.

You know, I was fortunate that we
put like the vinyl waterproof, like

planking floor down there because
I knew that this was gonna happen.

Happens like once a year whenever
we just get like a nasty rain.

But the worst part is just moving all the
stuff out of the way so you can flip the

couches over so that they dry properly.

It's just a pain.

And this is the room that you just had
remodeled not too long ago too, right?

Oh, I'll do that.

It's been like the pandemic.

It doesn't feel like that long
ago, but it was, it's honestly

like, uh, yeah, like three or four

years ago at this point.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's crazy, isn't it?

It feels like it was two months ago.

Yep.

Yeah.

Post pandemic time.

Yeah.

Boy.

So what's new with you, man?

What are you, what are you've been up to?

I don't, oh, not much.

Just, uh, just staying pretty busy,
uh, pretty steady with design work and,

uh, working more than I wish I was.

And, uh, just started painting the house.

Part of the house project has
progressed to, uh, the exterior

paint stage, so that's a lot of fun.

I could barely walk today.

I, I climbed up and down the,
uh, extension ladder like

five or 600 times yesterday.

My, uh, my, my step tracker on
my phone says I, I walked like

four and a half miles and it was
all up and down a ladder, so, oh,

you should have got a lift.

Yeah, if I could get one on
my yard, somebody, oh, hey.

Surely we've got somebody that
listens to the podcast that could

bring over a truck and just Yeah.

Right.

Set you up in the bucket.

Anybody in Oregon hook
me up free chimichangas.

Yeah.

Well, I'll tell you what, I'm happy to
be doing this episode of the podcast.

I don't.

I, I think this is the first one
since my emergency appendectomy.

So that was a fun experience.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I wasn't sure if you wanted to talk about
that, but how, how are you recovering?

Uh, yeah, I'm happy

to talk about it.

I, I will say word of advice to the
audience if you are over the age of 30,

and even if you're not, um, but more
so if you're over the age of 30, if you

are experiencing pains that are kind of
weird, you're not really sure what it is

or don't just ignore it, go to the doctor.

Um, I woke up, it was like a
Wednesday, several weeks ago.

Had some stomach pain.

I had assumed, just like I've had
acid reflux for years and, you

know, I fought with it on and off.

I'd assume it was something like that,
or maybe an ulcer, something non-serious.

Got involved in meetings and
kind of went away, ignored it.

By the time I got done with meetings and
like actually stopped, And sat down and

didn't have anything to do at the moment.

I was like, man, the pain is
really awful, so go get the kids.

My wife's driving like I'm
sweating in the passenger seat.

It's like we're getting up there
on the pain scale, like six,

six or eight maybe come back.

I call Mr.

Mike here because I'm
thinking that it's an ulcer.

Mike's like, Hey, try pickle juice.

I'm standing at the refrigerator
like trying not to gag and suck

back some of this pickle juice.

Wait 45 minutes to an
hour, still no relief.

And then the pain is just
mounting at this point.

Uh, go to the local urgent care.

Wait 45 minutes there, pacing around in
the actual like waiting room, thinking

okay, like making everybody uncomfortable.

They weren't sure if I was gonna
like shoot up the place or cough

and give everybody covid or
what was gonna happen, you know?

So finally I see the doctor
and they send me to the er.

It turns out I have a severe
acute appendicitis and have

to have emergency surgery.

Damn.

Buta, bing, buta, boon.

Well, I'm glad that you, you
know, it sucks, but I guess

it could have been worse.

I'm glad that you, um, were in
and out quick and seems like

you had a really quick recovery.

Sorry about the pickle juice.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

That was by far not the worst part of it.

It was pretty bad, but I'm sure it
wasn't, not the worst part of it.

Yeah.

For,

for now, modern medicine is great.

I've got three little scars on my stomach.

Like the, the worst part of that was I'm
a, this is probably tmmi for the audience,

but I'm a naturally pretty hairy guy.

So like, they shaved all of my belly
and left, like the top part kinda looked

like I was wearing like a, a hairy
bra, you know, it was like my kids

were laughing at me, so I had to just
go ahead and like shave all of it off.

Now I'm in like the Wolf Man stage.

Man, that makes me think of the
scene from, uh, the 40 year Old

Virgin where, uh, Steve Cor goes.

Oh, oh, Kelly Clarkson.

Yes.

That's, I think we need to see like a
side by side comparison of, of, of you

and, and Steve Corll from that moment.

Oh God.

See if, who

wore it best.

Yeah, babe.

That'll get the next
cease and desist letter.

A hundred percent.

Well, I'm glad that you, uh, recovered
so quickly and it wasn't, um, I

mean, I, I wish it was something
less serious for you, but I'm glad

it wasn't anything more serious.

And I, you know, really in, in the
long run, I, I'm glad it wasn't

an ulcer, cuz an ulcer is really
something you can't get rid of.

So at least this was something that Yeah.

Stuck temporarily, but
it's not a long-term thing,

so.

Yeah.

And the, the appendix is useless, so yeah.

Why not get rid

of it?

Did you keep it?

Did they like give it to you in a jar?

Uh, I didn't ask.

I, I should have though.

I did go back, feel like they
shoulda that I went back this You

could like, sent that to somebody.

Yeah.

The doctor said the path pathology
results came back and he said,

um, it did not rupture, but it
was very close to rupturing.

So

anyway, I guess they caught it in time.

I, I've heard that's just
like absolutely miserable.

If it does, does rupture.

It's a pretty, oh yeah.

I was, I was a total baby about it.

Like, I, I was, you know, I was
like, they asked for your pain

scale and I was like, oh, it's 10.

It's 10, it's 10.

And my wife's over there
like, eh, like childbirth bro.

Like, just come off of it a little bit.

But, uh,

that's hilarious.

Well, so I'm excited for
the episode today, man.

As am I I'm, I'm so close.

What

do we, what have we

got on the slate?

We have got, uh, gentleman by
the name of Shane Deford Canada.

He is, uh, been around for a long
time and he is a prolific sign,

carver sign, painter, sign designer.

The guy does just
absolutely phenomenal work.

I've been kind of social media stalking
this guy for a long time, most of my

career, I would say on, uh, he, his
work is just absolutely phenomenal.

It's on a, it's on another level.

I, I, there's a lot of really talented,
fantastic sign makers out there, but

something about Shane's work is just, I
don't know, it calls to me or something.

It's beautiful.

So really excited to have him on the show
and, uh, pick his brain a little bit.

And, uh, yeah,

I, I think for me it is, it kind
of goes back to like the signage

that you got in the business for.

Totally.

Yeah.

Like, yeah, everybody
gets into this industry.

They wanna make signs like he
makes, I mean, it's like, You the

pinnacle of handcrafted signage
that, you know, anybody would be

jealous to have this guy's portfolio.

Yeah.

Super excited about it.

Couple different threads I
think we're gonna touch on.

I know that like Shane was in the
industry for a long time, took a

break, I'm assuming because of burnout.

Uh, very real story for you and myself.

So curious to get his take on that.

And then, you know, I I, I feel
like there's a lot of folks out

there who want to do this type of
work, uh, but don't necessarily

know where to get started with it.

You know, like how do you, how do you
break into this side of the industry?

Yeah.

Yeah.

I'm excited to talk to him about
both of those topics for sure.

Especially the burnout topic.

I, I think that's, I mean, you know me,
I mean, I'm, I'm always kinda going off

on tangents about mental health and,
and uh, you know, keeping your head

about you in this industry cuz it, it
can, can definitely drive you crazy.

So I'm really anxious to talk to him about
his experience with, with burnout and

how he, you know, took some time off and
came back and recharged his batteries.

I mean, I think that's something
that probably everybody after, you

know, probably true of any industry
or career, but, uh, something that

probably everybody can, can relate
to, to some degree or another.

I know I can for sure.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Me as well.

Yeah.

You, uh, I, I definitely want to do
like a, a, a serious like mental health

episode, but I think this will be a
good primer leading up to that as well.

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

For sure.

All right, well, uh, let's bring him on.

All

right, here we are.

We've got Shane Deford.

Shane, welcome.

How are you

today?

I'm good, thanks.

Yeah.

Good to be here.

Awesome.

Thanks for asking me on the,
uh, on this podcast, Mike.

Well, I've

been, I've been geeking You

gotta set 'em up a little
better than that, dude.

Come on now.

I don't normally do the intros, man.

I don't Yeah, right on the spot.

I, I just, I just like, I did the, the
lead up to him before we brought 'em

on, so maybe you should do the intro.

We just gotta warm up.

We just gotta warm up.

Yeah.

A couple takes practice.

No, without a doubt.

Shane really doesn't
need any introduction.

If you don't know his name, you've seen
his work a hundred different places.

We were saying before we jumped on
with you, Shane, that like the work

that you do is like some of the, like
the work that we got into the industry

to do, like the really beautiful
carved signage that kind of blends

art and commerce at the same time.

Mm-hmm.

How, how was that?

Was that solid?

Yeah, that's good.

That okay?

Pretty much No, that I'm just
writing up my workshop here.

And that was, Basically what define
what sign makers should be so problem

solving with our full solutions.

So yeah.

You you got it.

Nailed it.

Perfect.

Well, uh, for those who may not be
familiar with you, why don't you kind

of go into your backstory a little bit?

Well, I was, um, I started
in 81, 82 as a sign writer.

I went to George Brown College
for sign writing, and I was a

sign writer for eight years.

And, you know, just plywood
signs, trucks, everything.

And I was okay.

I, I was a little bored with my work.

Uh, I felt I was stuck.

And to be honest, I was
going to leave the industry,

especially when plotters came on.

I thought, okay, that's it for me.

And then I met a mentor who's a,
a designer and a branding person,

and he said, so I'll help you out.

I'll mentor you.

And so for the next five years I
stayed, I opened up a studio in Crear

and, um, He taught me everything I
need to know about color marketing,

branding, design, and then I, you know,
taught myself how to carve at the same

time, and it just, things switched.

It was just like a, a switch.

It just changed everything, changed
the work, changed my clients, and

it just, um, it just showed me the
road to the never ending journey of

learning and improving and striving.

So I I, I'm curious about that,
Shane, you said that it kind of,

kind of switched your outlook
on, on the industry in general.

What, I mean, I think we can all take
a guess, but going from like just, you

know, flat pain and, you know, sight
signs and truck doors to the stuff that

you do, that, I, I don't think it's an
exaggeration to call it art, works of art.

I mean, these are, these, these
definitely take signage to an

elevated level that you rarely see.

Was it just that it became a better
creative outlet for you or what.

And it was more fulfilling or, or what,
what changed that, that made you enjoy it

again?

Yeah, I think it is shifted my
mind how I approached design and

approached the sign industry.

You know, I was very much a sign writer
and a sign link, and I learned, uh,

through the mentoring is that if I changed
the perception of sign making, so if I had

someone come into my shop, I, I would, uh,
I was, everything that represented sign

making, I, I was not, for instance, my
business cards looked like banker's cards.

My front room looked like a,
a, a studio as an art studio.

So everything, it was changing
the perception of writers.

And so through a series of process, I
would, could educate my client and get.

And get them to, to invest
more in the product.

So, and what I would do is
say, yeah, I, I can do that.

I had no idea how to do these things.

I just, I'll figure out how, how
I, someone says like throwing a

hat or a fence and I just kept
changing my hat or the fence and I

just had the right people coming in
my door and it was easy for them.

Once they were educated, they could
see it was a great investment.

And rather than selling, I would, I
would just educate them and they'd say,

well, I wanna spend this amount of money.

And it was it, it was effortless that way.

And then, After that it was up
to me to perform and to develop

my design skills and my sense of
color and shadow and all the rest.

And it was a learning curve for sure.

Do you remember like,

what the, like the do like one of
the first, or like second projects

that you did, like going from
like sign writing into actually

like carved like high end stuff?

Was that, do you Yeah.

Are there any that stick out to you?

Well, my sign was the first one and
I had to re carve it three or four

times cause it was crap the begin.

So every time I looked at it
like, I could do better now.

So yeah, it was, um, I remember my
first high relief carving because

it, I used a book called High
Relief Carving, I forget his name.

But anyways, I thought, okay,
this, this should work out.

And yeah, it was very fussy, overworked,
you know, I had lots to learn.

I was very tight looking work.

Uh, I was young too, and, and I was
just, the, the learning curve was

steep, but, Yeah, it's, it took a
while for me to grow into that part.

You know, I have a lot of work
that doesn't look very good.

It's okay.

So I look at that once in a while.

I think that's good.

You know, it's like follow
a journey, you know?

It's really about adopting this
process that just allows me to,

it's like a revealing process.

It allows me to keep to,
it's like removing what's

not necessary, if that makes

sense.

That, that, that's interesting.

If you.

I, I was studying, I, I went back through
your Instagram page and your website, kind

of studying some of your work the other
day to prepare for a conversation today.

And that's, that's an interesting
take on it, removing what

doesn't need to be there.

And I, I think that something that
all sign designers probably struggle

with to, to one degree or another
is, is, is the art of restraint and,

you know, where, what do we remove?

What, you know, what, what do we
take away from this to, to get the

point across without it looking, you
know, tacky or over rot or whatever.

Mm-hmm.

Um, and, and your, your work, I think
more than just about anybody else's,

I've seen definitely strikes a balance
between what's there and what's not

there and, and, and, and what color is
present and what color is not there.

I mean, you use a lot of monotone, you
know, color schemes or color tone on tone

and, and, and you use a lot of shadow to
create color, for lack of a better term.

That, and it's, it really, I
mean, I think it, it's strikes

you especially, it strikes me as
a designer anyway, to see how.

Simple and clean, and I'm not
try trying to get the right,

I'm, I'm not doing it justice.

There's like, there's a
word I'm looking for here.

Just, just very restrained, I guess.

I mean, your, your designs are incredibly
restrained and yet they're, they work

so well and it's, it's interesting to
see how, how you've accomplished that.

That is interesting.

Yeah.

I, um, one of the first things this mentor
told me was, it's always about one thing.

You have one thing going on the
sign and it's like everything

else is in support of that.

It's like an orchestra.

There's a main theme to
the, to the, to the piece.

Everything else is in support of that.

So, um, that was a, that
alone was a huge lesson.

And then when building approaching
design, I build a criteria.

So it's, it's storage.

So I gather as much
information as possible.

Uh, everything, even I don't analyze
it or, or think of design at the point

I just, I'm searching and gathering.

And then from that list I'll take a,
I'll build a criteria, all the key

points that describe that, that business,
that person, you know, it's things

about where they wanna be, what kind
of traffic is going by the door, the

architecture, their, their building,
the history of that, history of them.

So all of it just goes right.

It's like, it's like putting all
these ingredients into a recipe

and it gets distilled down.

It's gets boiled down
to the, it's essence.

So anytime I'm designing, I'll just
create, I'll look for that one thread

that runs through the whole design.

And of course I'll take into consideration
where it's going because it should

become part of the building or its
surroundings and that's what gives it,

its grounding and a sense of belonging.

So after that, anything I'm
designing or, or something, I

try to keep my mind out of it.

I don't think it through, I
just kind of feel it alone.

I.

Something that just comes up, pops up a
picture or an idea, and I'll put it in.

I won't question it, I'll just put it in.

And how I cross reference that is, does it
visually, does it align with the criteria?

For instance, if it's a, a shop that
sells leather chairs, does it feel

like it would be part of the chair,
for instance, as it, because colors and

designs and shapes are all emotional.

So what I try to do with the signs is
to communicate in an emotional way.

So it was there, they're essentially
visual cues and they have to

line up with this criteria.

So basically the criteria drives
the design as opposed to me

thinking what it should be.

So I think it's like a
bottom up feel, uh, approach.

Then top down, do you

have this criteria listed out, like at
the start of the process, or are you

like going through and like sketching,
like, okay, like here's the, the main

notes that I want to hit, or is it
just, it's all like up here or in

here?

Yeah, it is heart-centered because,
because, you know, people purchase

85% of our purchases are emotional.

So, and, and visual language
is an emotional language.

So you can, you know, inject
sense of smell and sound and

all these little cues in there.

You don't, it's not a conscious thing.

So when I, when I list this criteria,
I just gather, list the criteria.

I just, the criteria.

It's not, it's not about
what I think or my agenda.

I just list it and then
I just read through it.

I get a feel for this, for this thing.

And, um, and then I just start to
choose components, like, what are

the sign shape, like, where's it
gonna go, how big does it have to be?

So those questions have to be asked, but,
so this criteria just kind of guides it.

There's no, it's like method acting,
you know, you have to learn a,

everything, all the background stuff.

So, When you do, when you are
creating it, it's believable and

it's related closely to the business.

So if someone's driving by or walking
by, they gather so much information

from that, such a simple image that
it, it not only just entices people

to come in, but it targets the
right clientele for the business.

So, and that's a selling
point to the business as well.

In most, uh, when I people come
into my studio, the conversation

started with, I'm different.

I'm more expensive than anyone,
but this is what you're gonna get.

And I'm a designer first and a
sign expert first, and I just

happened to craft my own signs.

But I'm not a signed guy, so to speak.

So right away, and I aligned myself in
the language and the surroundings as.

As an architect would.

So their perception has changed.

So if you can change their perception, now
you're having a different conversation,

now you can start talking about what their
investment will be and and educating them.

And sometimes I'll say, you
know, go think about it.

Don't, you don't have
to de decide right now.

It was, I wanted the work, but I never.

Pushed it.

Uh, you know, I just, you know,
go home and think about it and

if you're still interested,
we'll we can make an appointment.

There was never a walk-in
traffic to be my appointment.

Yeah, right, right.

Just a little hard to cut.

Yeah, well, exclusive.

So those little exclusive paints
and two, you know, with the signed

company, they, even when I had nothing
and I didn't have any money, I didn't

have any business, I tried to make
my front of my shop look successful.

And I was told years ago that people
with money wanna be part of success.

So it was always psychology involved,
but it was just everything I could

just to not appear as a assigned guy.

That sounds, uh, it
sounds counterintuitive.

No.

Yeah, I, I would say it runs counter
to like, what most of the audience

does is like, Hey, we are sign guys.

Like we need to advertise.

We need like giant channel
letters out front of our shop.

We need like a, a giant showroom with
every single thing that showcases every

sign, particular product that we sell.

Uh, so it's, it's interesting to
hear you say things like that.

Like, Hey, immediately, like I'm shifting
gears into like, I'm not a signed guy.

Yeah.

And I have to background on that.

You know, I was doing a lot of, uh,
truck lettering and crappy little a

hundred dollars signs with names on it.

And I worked for the ministry Natural
Resources making no dogs on the

beach signs, just so I could be, you
know, I just didn't jump into it.

It was like a concept that I,
I believed in and long, it's

a long game strategy, but it.

Put me into areas that I
wouldn't normally get into.

You know about being a consultant.

I consult with, uh, municipalities
as well and, and streetscape.

And so, yeah, it's, it's a long, it's
not gonna, it doesn't happen overnight,

but, and there was times too where I
would refuse work that would come back

to haunt me if I wouldn't put my name on
anything that was not of quality design.

Gotcha.

And, and like those projects that you
turned down, were they at points where

like you had enough work coming in
that it, like you could turn that away?

Or was it no painful?

Was it painful at the time
of like, Hey, I, I can really

use this money, but, but I,

it drove my wife crazy
saying, what are you doing?

I said, no, believe me, it's gonna work.

Cause sometimes, you know, I
had to, when people come in,

I had to evaluate them too.

Had to parse them.

It was, do you wanna hire me
and do I wanna work for you?

They have to get it.

If they don't get it, then
it's, It's gonna be an

expensive long process for them.

So I had, yeah, there was times where
I had to refuse the work, but it's like

anything, sacrifices have to be made.

I, I feel like you've just obliterated
every sign guys business model and like

the first 10 minutes here I'm looking.

Well, there is, you know, and that's, it's
the kind of thing if you wanna go into

making these types of signs, you know,
for me, I had to be, I had to be creative.

I had to always be challenged.

And I, I got bored easy.

But there was a place, you know, some
people command and I said, I, I don't

want all this, I just want a sign.

And I said, it's fine.

I had a, I never said I couldn't or
wouldn't I, I wouldn't turn them away.

I would say, here's
someone that could take.

Better care of your needs.

And they, you know, wrap people do
wraps and large format printing.

They do that really well, but they could
also have two parts of their business.

They could have a premium
handcrafted business and, you know,

the regular stuff that comes in
that, the day job, so to speak.

But there's something, for me, it was
not only challenges me and pushes me,

but also it just gets better clients too.

I find, you know, you're less, less
about price, more about the quality.

Okay.

But that really resonates.

Mike, you look deep in thought.

Yeah,

no, I,

I, um, it looked like some of my clients
that come in the door, it's like, okay,

the are just turning in my head.

I'm like, I'm like thinking, okay,
I've gotta like rewrite all the copies.

No, I, I, I mean, I mean, I, I love it.

I think I, I've heard people in
this industry, you know, say, or

may or maybe wonder like, is sign
shop a dirty word or is sign guy?

Like, is that a bad thing?

Do we wanna be a sign shop or not?

And, and it is really interesting to like,
I mean, you are taking sign shop model

and like, just we're talking about fires.

I mean, you're just setting a fire to it.

And it's, and I, and I, and I love
it and it's, I, I wish that it, it

was possible for everybody in this
industry to do what you're doing.

I mean, in reality, you know, depending
on the market you're in, in, in your,

your skill level, obviously it's not,
I mean, you, you've got the, you,

you've got the toolbox to back up,
you know, being a little choosy on it.

But it's, it's awesome.

I mean, I'm, I am, I, I am, I'm,
I'm sitting here thinking like, how,

how can I, How can I be like Shane?

Well, you know, I, you
know, I think it can apply.

I had a lot of guys come to my workshops.

I had CNC machines and they, I
didn't abandon the sign crafting.

I just, I just wanted to appear.

That sign crafting was not some guy
in the back corner when I started out.

You know, they'd said, pull
this, don't drink on the job.

Cuz that's what Signwriter do.

And, and so it was like lifting the
craft cuz on my sign I said, you

know, Shane Erford sign crafter.

And it was a, it was
like a, an honored craft.

And, but that had to change
perceptions with people.

But even if you any sign shop that
does any type of work, it's the same

approach in the way of, I'm a designer
first, I'm a sign expert and I, you

don't tell me what you want because
that's not letting me do my job.

You tell me everything about
your business and I'll.

And I'll bring it in and I'll turn around
and I'll give you the de design you need

so that, that's a whole switch around.

Because I know a lot of sign shops
and myself, I get frustrated.

People come in and this is what I want.

I saw this down the road,
I like this other thing.

So you create this
Frankenstein, so to speak.

Clients not happy.

You're not happy.

And they tend to be, they
don't really value what you do.

So they're crapping about money
in the bottom line all the time.

And instead of coming back at
it, turning it, reverse the flow

and said, I'm a signed expert.

So that changes everything and, and
educate why that's important and what.

What value they get it out of that.

Yeah.

You can say, you can go to a shop
and they, you tell 'em what you want

and God bless, but this is why I how
I do it, and this is why I do it.

So whether it's a wrap or any kind
of signage, it is design oriented.

You know, I, I feel like maybe you're
not really backing away from the idea of

being a sign maker or a signwriter or sign
painter or whatever you wanna call it.

Mm.

I kind of feel like you're just
sort of pushing that title back to

what it used to be and what it Yeah.

What it should be.

You know, it's not like
you're changing it.

You're, I, you know, I would argue the,
probably the vinyl slingers out there

maybe are the ones that have say that.

I don't mean that in a bad way
against them, but, you know,

I, but you know what I mean,

like, you know, read the room.

Mike, read

the

room.

No, I don't care.

I mean, I've been there.

I've, I've, look, I've sl I have,
I have flung my share of vinyl.

And polluted our visual world
more than I ever should have.

And I, I'm the first, yeah.

I'm the, I'm the first one to admit that.

And anybody in this industry
who's been doing this long enough

needs to be humble enough to
step back and say, you know what?

This isn't where I thought I
was gonna go with this and this.

You know, I'm not doing the type of work
that I wanted to do, and I'm, I'm not the

type of sign maker that I wanted to be.

And I think Shane's attitude here,
or, or outlook on it, I think is the

reason that he is doing, you know, the
type of work that we all wish we were.

I'm gonna get on the soapbox a minute
and say like, I think a lot of it is

driven by the equipment and like the, the
technology and like the manufacturers.

It's like, Hey, how fast can you print?

How wide can you print?

Like, you know, a lot
of it is driven by that.

Totally.

And, and just cost mean I've been
equipment being stupid cheap compared

to what it used to be as well.

Where, yeah.

Like, and it's all we test that on.

Yeah.

It's all about the

payment price.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Or the equipment being so stupid expensive
that now you feel beholden to it and

you've got to, you know, churn out
vinyl by the pound or crappy banners

and, you know, stickers all day long.

Just just to make your, you know, your
payment on the printer every month.

I mean, you know, we've
all been there too.

And then that suddenly you're like,
you're working for the printer leasing

company and trying to pay that thing off
instead of making signs that you wanna

make, you know, I mean, I, I, and then so

comes along with a faster
machine or a better machine.

And, you know, I think it too, I think
people are, are shops, you know, if

they're tired of just losing jobs or
people shopping for the lowest price

and they all look the same, you know, I
heard Tom mention that it's just all in

the mud, you know, it's just trying to
grab, grab the best fruit off the truck.

But I think if.

Even a vi like I had, there's
nothing wrong cuz I'm a sign crafter.

You're straight through, you know, man
laddering carving, but I have nothing

against vinyl or C n C machines.

But you're right, it if they tend to lean
on that too heavily, it's just a tool.

The designs first just design to the
criteria designed to the business,

adds value to their design, which
adds value to the signs sign what

adds value to their business, and
they start to rise above the rest.

It's like, yeah, okay, you could, everyone
else has CNC machines, everyone else

has vinyl cutters, but we are designed
and we're going to make you money

by having you invest in our company.

And the fact that we are designers,
not just pretty, not pretty, but

strategic connective design that
will the psychology of design.

So yeah, that's, that's not a big reach.

You know, I, I think it's a good
business model for most sign shops,

regardless how they do their work.

Cuz it doesn't matter how anyone does it.

It's, I know you guys, uh, agree.

It's, it's all about the design.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

There's definitely a lot of shops out
there that just have a vinyl cutter or

wide format printer that are producing
absolutely phenomenal, mind-blowing,

beautiful work that is designed, you
know, designed first, designed forward.

Mm-hmm.

So, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, I agree totally on that.

Okay.

So, plugging along, you're making your
signs, eventually you hit a wall, right?

I mean, you, you stepped away from
the industry for a little while.

Yeah.

You know, that's, uh,
I worked all the time.

I, I mean, I loved it.

I mentioned to Bryant before, I said,
I get up at three in the morning.

I was like, you know, I'm gonna work.

I, I have some, or I would fall asleep
and a design would pop in my, I'm

gonna go down there and make that.

And many times I'd work around the
clock and I loved what I did and I

had a young family, two buildings
and, and renovating and, you know,

I'd have to be honest, a bad marriage.

And I just thought if I just work
harder, longer, things can get

through the other side of it.

You know,

you hit me right in the heart.

Unbelievably familiar.

Yeah.

That, and then I just feel it coming.

I felt that it was just my
bone marrow was being, my life.

Energy was leaving me.

And I was doing workshops
and I was still designing.

It was like I was not
connected to myself anymore.

So I, I think, um, One
day, I, I came in the shop.

I couldn't do it anymore.

I couldn't pick up my tools.

It was the strangest phenomenon.

I just stood there.

I said, I can't.

So I, I just, same day I ended, said,
I don't wanna be married anymore.

I don't wanna do this anymore.

I was like, I'm just, I'm just toast.

So it, that was tough.

That was a hard wall to hit.

And it's a cautionary tale.

And I, you know, I was gonna go off
and be a cop, do something different.

That was my plan, only because I
just couldn't do the work anymore.

Nothing wrong at work.

I was, business was great.

Um, it was going exactly
where I wanted to go.

Uh, but it just, yeah, I just, I had
nothing, nothing, nothing in the gas tank.

So, yeah, I just took hiatus.

I thought, you know, I'll
give it a bit of time.

I'll come back to sign crafting
and it's, I did one last year.

Uh, I designed it and they
couldn't find someone to make it.

So I thought, ah, I'll make it.

And it was, it was tough.

It was like swallowing
glass, to be honest.

But, you know, I stood at the end of
it, I thought, oh my God, I love this.

I love sign making.

I love the whole idea that having
something draw it from their

stuff and form out of thin air.

And there it is in three dimension,
interacting with the landscape and people

and yeah, there's nothing like it really.

It's, it brings in design, psychology,
you know, environmental design, you

know, have to bring in so much knowledge.

You know, I've learned about so many
things cuz every job I do, the design

part of the criteria is, is research.

You know, for, if it's an old
building, when was the building built?

How would they have thought
about things back then?

They, they wouldn't have brought
in certain things so, And what

that does is make it look like it.

The sign was established
same time the building was.

So, and that's, yeah, so
it, I I love the craft.

I really do.

I just burn burnout's.

Not good.

And what, what, what year
did you hit the wall?

2010.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

And, and you were away
until just last year?

Yeah, pretty much.

Wow.

I did one, I did one, uh, one carving.

But yeah, essentially until last
year, I, I, you know, design logos and

package design and the same approach
to all of it, but it just didn't

have the same satisfaction as sign
crafting and working with my hands.

Okay.

So talk to me about the period.

In between like you
were a, a cop for a bit.

No, I did.

I, oh yeah.

Oh, you, I applied, yeah, I applied for
it, but there was hiring freeze on that.

Well, that, how am I gonna do now?

Right.

Oh, gotcha.

I hung out onto all my equipment
and carving tools and uh, you

know, I, I still studied design,
I still, you know, approach, you

know, package design and, and the
rest, you know, I enjoyed all that.

It was okay, but it just
didn't have that thing.

So I just, I became a better designer,
I think, cuz I still follow that

path of discovery and, and just, you
essentially, you just get, I just,

with good design, it finds you, so
you need just to get out of the way.

So I, that was the practice.

So each project that came along was
practicing that and I designed a few

signs as well, so, Yeah, it was, it was
tough because it was so much part of my

life, so much part of my identity and,
and I was, you know, in a community

assigned community and in the small
community where I, I had my business

for 25 years, so it was, yeah, it's
a kinda lost my identity for a while.

I, it resonates with love with the craft.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Something love with the craft.

Yeah.

And, and, and it was most frustrating
time of my life cuz something I loved to

do that I could do well and I had such a,
a healthy business, I just couldn't even

look, I couldn't even open my toolbox.

I went to, they asked me to come
in and fill in for someone at the,

one of the letterhead meets down
at the Sign museum Cincinnati.

And I was, I had to
show them how to carve.

I didn't wanna do it.

I woke up in the morning,
I said, I can't do this.

I just like, I'll just
tell 'em how to do it.

So, but that, you know, that's
how, that's how strong burnout

is when you hit that wall.

It's a hard road back.

And I, I think it's for anybody
who, who just, it's imbalance.

And I think the way to fix it is just
kind of swing it, you know, the benzo

has swing back the other way before
it finds its, you know, center again.

And what

worked well for you to, to
come back from the burnout?

I think, yeah.

I had to, I had to, for me personally,
I had to get rid of, I had to come to

an understanding about how I came to
burnout and, and let go of the past.

You know, I was this, or
I did that or I had this.

And so I had to let all that go.

And it's like, here I am standing
here now and I still love what I do.

So I just kind of, and it
with that was that simple.

And I love my sign crafting days.

Not so much, but I'm going more
into carving the same approach to

architectural carving, but that
allows me to really go further into

the elaborate work carving and such.

But, um, still signs, you
know, designing signs.

Yeah.

I still, I still do that.

Okay.

Do you think there's a way to
avoid burnout or do you think it's

just like part of the process,
uh, like part of the journey?

No, I, I think it, yeah, fine.

You know, for me, like I, I don't know
that I, I would be sitting here today

without like, flaming out as hard as
I did back when I was, you know, mid

twenties of working 60, 80 hours a week
and yeah, not taking care of myself and

just burning the candle at both ends.

You know, my dad, I should
have learned from my father.

He was a, had his own iron, iron
shop fabricating iron, and he said,

if I can't make my living nine
to five, then I, I won't do it.

And he always took time to, I.

To do other things.

I think, you know, as in design, as in
nature, as in life, if we don't, uh,

work towards balance, imbalances will,
something will force us to find, to

go the other way, will, whether it's
health, whether it's emotional health, or

whether it's, whatever it may be, it just
forces you to find centric and it wants

to find center so it'll correct itself.

It's usually in harsh ways.

The farther you go, the longer you go,
the more harsh the pullback is on it.

So, yeah, it's brutal And uh, you know,
a lot of people thought, what if he,

you know, if I'm leaving the industry,
what does it hold for the rest of us?

But I don't think they ever, the
story was ever out there about me

burning up personally as I did.

You know, everything basically collapsed.

Marriage, business, everything.

So, yeah, just kind I, you know, I
just jumped out of a moving vehicle.

That's what I

did.

But hey, I was so loved.

I luck of the craft.

Yeah, I, I mean, if, if the vehicle's
going off the cliff, like what else are

you gonna do at that point, you know what,

I wish I would've heard that Let go.

That could save me some time.

Yeah.

So

in, in hindsight, do you feel like
hitting that wall could have been

preventable or at least you could have
slammed on the brakes earlier so you

didn't hit it as hard or Absolutely.

Was it totally inevitable no matter
what you, you could have done?

Was it just

gonna happen?

No, I, um, yeah, I could have easily
prevented it by taking more time to,

so I'm not working today, I'm not
at, this are my times and that's it.

Nothing more.

And then balance it with more fun
things, you know, there was a time I

didn't get outta my workloads, I just.

You know, I, at first I had my, we lived
upstairs, my studio was downstairs,

so there was times where I would leave
the building for, for a week at a time.

And yeah, I could have
prevented a lot of that.

Just balance, balance, life
more, exercise, more fun, you

know, work hard, play hard.

I just worked hard.

That's it.

Yeah.

This one, uh, definitely
hits hard for, for me.

I, I'm a notorious workaholic.

I, I, yeah, I, for whatever reason, I
mean, I, it's this weird, like, sadistic

pleasure that I find and just working
and working and working and, um, as I've,

as I've gotten older, I've definitely
tried to, Keep myself off of that path.

And, and, you know, I've experienced
very similar to what you have.

I mean, I, mm-hmm.

I hit a wall at 500 miles an
hour and it was, it was tough.

And marriage didn't survive.

Sold the business fortunately.

But burnout's burnout is really tough.

And yeah, I feel like I'm on the
verge of it again, and I'm, and I'm,

I'm like trying to look, look back
and, and, and figure out how to, you

know, how to not have it happen again.

And it's, it's tough because like when
you, when you're, when you do ultimately

enjoy what you do and you are a workaholic
and that work is, is fulfilling to you,

like, it's, it's really hard to look at
that objectively and say, listen, this

is not a, you know, a healthy place
to be and I need to step away from

it, or I need to go do something else.

Yeah.

And that's a tough place to be.

I think for me it was, um, I mean, I
loved what I did and, and everything

else, but there was something else
underneath it was, you know, just.

You always have to look back to
our early beginnings, but my dad

was a workaholic and that's how
you showed love for your family.

That's how what you did for your family
and you just, oh yeah, shit hits a fan.

You just work harder.

So that's a recipe for high
speed collision if there was one.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think it's just understanding
why we are a workaholics.

You know, some people are alcoholics,
you know, and I was neurotic too.

Part of my thing too, I was very
neurotic when I was lettering science.

The letters had to be perfect.

I spent so much energy worrying about
such details of my work and it, I

had to come to grips with that too.

So, yeah, I think.

Working too hard.

Burnout is us, the end result of
something deeper, something more

profound, because there's something
that doesn't, we know the wall's coming

and we know we're picking up speed,
but some way we say, I don't know.

What did you,

yeah.

If you go, if you go fast
enough, you'll go through it

or you just hoping you
won't hit the wall sometime.

Yeah.

You just,

I, I think that's the
mentality everybody takes.

Okay.

I see that wall coming.

I'm just, I'm just gonna speed
up and hope I just break right

through it and I'll be fine.

Right.

Yeah.

No choice.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, it's a's kind of, it's a
joke, but I think it's really true.

I mean, and it's, and you're right too.

I mean, I think there's a societal
pressure on, on us that that's

how we have to provide and
that's what, you know, like this.

Subconscious measure of success we have
is how hard we work and how much we work.

And if you, you took a day off,
then you're, you're not successful.

You're not providing for your family,
you're lazy or, or whatever it is.

And it's hard to overcome
that mental block too.

And that's something that I
definitely, you know, struggle with.

And, and, and still too, to this
day, I mean, I'm, I'm getting better

at forcing myself to take days off.

And there are times I come in and sit
down in my office and I, you know, I've

got a stack of signs, I've got a design,
and I, I just, I, I physically, like you

said, you couldn't pick up your tools.

Like sometimes I can't touch that mouse.

Yeah, yeah.

And I just have to get up and,
you know, and, and walk away.

And it's the worst feeling
in the world sometimes It

is.

It's like there's a force field around it.

Yeah.

It's weird.

You just, Yeah, it's like magnetically,
like repelling your hand and it,

and it's, and then it's hard not to
fall down like this hole of kind of

beating yourself over it, you know?

And, and it's a vicious cycle.

I can touch the mouse, Mike.

I just can't, like, I
just stare at the screen.

Like, you just kind of move around.

You throw it around and click on stuff
like, oh, hey, hey, here's something.

Let me click on it a hundred times
and just move it around a little.

I'm

working,

I know.

I, I'm a, a bagpiper and I knew this,
uh, this guy he played since he was

a kid and he was, you know, grade one
piper and he was always go practicing,

practicing until one day he said, my
hands wouldn't, fingers wouldn't move.

And it wasn't anything physical.

It was an emotional, it's like
your body's like enough, no more.

You know, it's, it's like, you
know, it's just something says no.

So, and especially when we're younger
and think full of everything and.

And then we just keep going, you know?

And I burnt out small burns along the way,
but once the big one happened, I, I never,

I don't think I ever came back fully.

Like there's something in me that just
kind of blew, blew something and, and it

just didn't get, it just doesn't fit back.

Do,

do you think that you, do you think
that something like broke in you

when you hit that wall and, and
it just hasn't, can't repair it?

Or do you think that something
changed in your priorities or

your outlook changed in, in you?

I think yeah, just approach

it differently now.

Bit of both, I think, you know.

Yeah.

I find, you know, there
was a song by Blue Rodeo.

It's like, you know, he is basically,
it blew apart and then some of

the pieces went put, were put back
together, but they were wrong with

some of them missing, you know?

Yeah.

And it's a weird psychological,
um, It's a powerful thing.

Like I, you think, oh,
burn, well, I get tired.

You get, you know, exhausted.

But no idea.

The emotional toll it takes and you
know, that I couldn't touch my tools.

I, I'd open my tool, but
I really feel nauseous.

I get such a strong thing.

Yeah.

And I just kept pushing.

And I think it's just, I dunno if
something got broken, I think it

just, I think, um, you know, if you
pull something out, you know, and

it, it just won't grow back anymore.

Like if you just keep mm-hmm.

For me, if I just, I pushed it and
pushed it and pushed it and once it

just broke, it just never came back.

It never regenerated.

So I feel like there's a piece missing.

I don't have the same push or drive,
but the love of the craft, but I don't

have the, the longevity in there.

I don't, and part of it's too
is like, ah, I just don't, I

don't wanna do that anymore.

Yeah, I think for me it was
like the patience was the, the

part that didn't come back.

Like the, the, the willingness to like
sit down at every minute detail because

that was, yeah, I used to think that
was part of why the work was great is

like obsessing over every little detail.

Uh,

I hear you.

You know, that's why I
couldn't sign craft anymore.

Couldn't make, cuz I'd spent hours,
you know, everything was so crafted

to such a fine touch and I just
didn't have that in me anymore.

Yeah, it's a strange,
it's a strange phenomenon.

It's, um, it was gonna some
it's gonna say something.

I forget what it was.

It's

funny you, you're talking about, you
know, I was, I've been thinking just

about my career here, but Brian, I
mean, you know, I'm in the middle of

this ridiculous house renovation too.

And, um, Shane Shaney the backstory
here during Covid, my wife and I

got bored and we bought a fixture
upper house and completely gutted

it down to the studs and have.

Are restoring it and renovating it,
and for like nine months straight.

That's all I did.

I mean, it was, it was 12, 16 hour
days of this house and it, and it's,

we're not doing just like a, you
know, like a DIY type flip on it.

Everything's gray.

I mean it, like, I, I
handmade all the trim.

I, I've handcrafted all these beams,
hand laid, all this hardwood floor.

I mean, every single square inch
house is touched by my hands, but

nine months of doing it all day, every
day, like eating, breathing, sleeping.

This house, I hit a wall two years
ago and like, I can barely, I can

barely bring myself to even, like,
vacuum the house now, let alone

make it's, it's only half done.

Right.

But I just can't, I can't

do anything on it.

I think it was so bad, Shane.

I had to send him, um, do you
remember the, the show home

improvement with, uh, Tim, the tool
man, Taylor and his assistant Al?

Yeah.

I got on, uh, cameo, which is a
service where you can like order videos

from celebrities to your friends.

It's, it's great fun.

I ordered a video from Al for
Mike and his wife to give them

a pep talk about renovating his

house.

It was, it was the greatest thing too.

And I, and I, I tell you
what, like I really needed it.

Like, it was, it was great to hear from
Al Borland in his flannel shirt that like,

oh my gosh, you know, there was light at
the end of the tunnel and you're gonna

get there and remodeling is hard, but.

Yeah, but I mean, it was the same thing.

I'm, I'm just listening, talk about, you
know, obsessing here of these details and

like, you know, I must have spent 30, 40,
50 hours driving around trying to find

just the right type of nail for my floor.

You know, not even, you know,
let alone actually, you know,

driving all those nails in.

And it's, like I said, we just
started painting in front of the

house and, and we went through 40,
45 different color samples until we

picked a color that we like and just
obsessing over all these details.

Yeah.

And it just, you know,
it, it drives you nuts.

I think there's point
in talking about that.

I think there's something to that, you
know, getting so deep in the weeds and

obsessing over things that nobody else
would even notice, but you, that really

leads down that path of, of burnout.

And I, and I think that,
that that obsession.

I think anybody who's really great
at what they do, ha you know,

has that obsession or that that
obsessive quality within them.

And I think it's probably
what makes them great.

I, it would help me a lot,
as I heard along the way was

the illusion of perfection.

You know, there's no such thing as
perfection and that released a lot of

stuff for me, I think too, part of being
the business sign business, having your

partner, having like a good partner.

You know, that was part of my burnout
too, is like I had someone that

would just like sabotage and, you
know, spend money and, you know,

I wanted a break in a lot of ways.

Like I said, I'm re needs.

I need a break, but so a partner's
big, big deal and a good home life too.

I mean, it's all connected.

There's no separation.

I think signing

that's a really good point.

I mean, that's a, this is a difficult
industry and it's an exhausting

industry and one that takes a lot of
tolls on, on you and, and you know,

having a spouse or you know, somebody
at home that's supportive of you, or

if they're actively in that business.

I mean, you've gotta be working
together towards the same goal.

And it sounds like you were kind of
in a similar boat as me, where, you

know, we were definitely not working
in the same direction and constantly

trying to undermine each other and,
and that definitely, I mean, it's,

it's really hard to do good work when
you're, you know, fighting your own

internal battles and demons like that.

It, it just, and it's not conducive
to creative life, a creative life.

No, it's not.

No,

it, it, it's not.

And it, and it makes, I mean,
come hell or high water, you.

If you're a creative person,
you're gonna live that life and

that's what you've gotta pursue.

And there's no, there's no
way you can get off that path.

I mean, you know, creative
person can't go work in a factory

all day long and be satisfied.

That's just not how it works.

No.

So creative person has to be, you know,
pursuing a creative job and, and it's

so easy to be derailed from that and
everything, just that kind of emotional,

you know, baggage makes creativity the
part of your brain that, that is creative.

I mean, it almost makes
it stop functioning

in

a way.

It is.

It comes from, yeah, that good place.

You know, I always think creativity
is more of a, a, an allowing.

So if there's other things, you know,
clamping down on it or heavy sitting

heavy on it, it's just hard to do.

And, and that was always in my
amazement when I was still designing.

I don't know where these designs
are coming from, but, you know,

I discovered though, and it was
through that process, you know,

people say, well, you're talented or,
you know, I, you love what you do.

It's like, well, it's
really not comes from me.

All I do is facilitate.

The process of coming
through me and I've heard it.

Others, other authors like novelists
talk about it, music composers and

many other, and they talk about,
it's just they get out of the way and

they allow things to come through.

So even when I was physically and
emotionally and mentally exhausted,

I still had these designs.

I was just like, it was as if I
was almost an observer as well.

But it takes the pressure off.

But I think it's a good way to think
of design cuz there's no pressure.

It just set it up so things come
through you and it's basically

designing from in, in intuition.

Yeah.

This is the part that I really wanted
to talk about of like what your creative

process looks like and just mm-hmm.

Like how you achieve that, that
flow because it like looking

at your work, it's easy to see.

Like, I like if I look at it and I try
to picture like, how would I have come

up with this like, I could form no words
as to like how something like that would

come together, but I feel like it's a,
like a series of steps and like mm-hmm.

To get into flow.

Maybe I, I don't know.

Like what, what do you, like, what
does your creative process look like?

How would you describe it to everybody?

Mm-hmm.

So, going into understanding
that it comes through me.

So, you know, when I gave my workshops, I
said it's almost like, or opening a portal

and letting things come through because I,
it might be a little deep for sign making,

but it's true for everything I believe.

And everything's connected to everything.

And I think good design connects
us to everything, to each other.

And we're all part of the universe.

We're all part of the same thing.

We're ourselves are, are
arranged as the golden means.

So there's a, that's why.

When we see certain faces or see
certain buildings or something,

it's all within that golden means.

So there's a connection there.

And then the book, uh, the old
way of seeing talks about that

we're innately all good designers.

We're innate.

Yeah.

Put it right here, folks.

That's it.

And so

we'll drop it in the show

notes for sure.

Yeah.

And it's like, great book.

I think everyone should read it because
it changes, can change our whole society.

Like if you're surrounded by good
design, with good design, meaning

authentic, universal design, that
we feel better, we function better.

Everything there's,
we're all in that flow.

So as a designer to get there, I need to,
when I design something, it's never about,

I, I like this, or I think it should have
that there's, I'm, I'm out of the picture.

I'm a facilitator period.

And I let my clients know.

It's not about what you want.

It's not about what I want.

It's your story.

But how it's gonna come about is.

It's going to come forth.

It will, it will find me and it
will find the solutions for you.

So, so yeah, I just, again, that cri
writing criteria, getting in, in the

feel of it, repeating the criteria.

And to be honest, if I'm just relaxed,
I have good, nice classical music

plan or some old jazz and I'm just
in a good place and there's a picture

usually comes up, pops on the page and
I'll look at it or else what I'll do.

If that's not happening, I'll
go and for instance, I dunno if

what signs you're familiar with,
there's a bank cafe has a B on it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

That's one that sticks out in my mind.

Mm-hmm.

So I think.

Okay.

Didn't want the bank.

It was a former bank.

So what started was, I gather everything
else, what they wanted to achieve, who

they wanted as a client who was coming
into town, the history of the town.

And she wanted to look, feel as if it was
always established, always been there.

So I'm thinking, okay, the pioneers
of the time, I did a little research.

What they did was plant apple trees
and created bee colonies cuz the

bees were the health of the farm and
health of the natural environment.

So I thought, oh, and then I looked
in the bees, and bees were community,

which lined up with the bank, cafes
and wellbeing and everything else.

I said, well, there we go.

There's a B.

That's the one thing, it's
gonna be the B'S going on it.

So, and what I'm doing too, when I,
when I'm going through this criteria,

I'm scribbling I, my hands scribbling.

I don't.

I don't, I don't look at other signs.

I don't look at anything.

I just, it's all about the topic and I'm
thinking, so now, so inside it has, it's

a really tall, it's classic bank building.

So I have really tall ceilings
with heavy cornice and, and

classic, uh, metal ceilings.

So I left, okay, should have the reach.

And then I thought, I'm playing it.

So I'm just playing as well.

And I'm playing around.

It's like, well, there's honeycomb.

Well, in the honeycomb there's these
little edges, you know, the sides.

And I just cool with the line.

So the whole, I'm just intuitively
sketching and I think, oh,

there's something there.

And I, I came across the sketch of that.

It is such a rough scribble, but
I'm just getting the feel of it.

And so I'm looking back at the
storyline, getting the feel.

So now I have in the top cap was the
cornice and the up, you know, up lines.

And the honey corner across the
top just says, traditionally

they would've done back then how
they would've built the molding.

And then the teardrop is basically
honey that has a drip, you

know, just a, a drop of honey.

And it has a nice feel to it.

If you look at that shape.

It exists so many places in nature
and we identify with that, you know,

it's very, uh, and two, the shape
holds, the bee like cradles it as well.

And so the bees in the middle.

So there's a lot of.

Then I'll go through crafts
referencing of, of design elements.

You know, the border all are
naturally proportion and they're

all related to each other.

So every aspect of that
sign is support of that B.

And there's nothing on that sign
that is just put on there cuz it's

pretty, or I've seen it down there.

It's cool, you know, it's just
kind of this natural process.

And I cross reference it with good design.

Does that work?

Why does that work?

You know, the shadow of the, the
upright with all the geometric shapes

and then you have so strong geometric
shapes, contrast to the organic shape.

It's a really nice, it's like you always
look for contrast, whether it's texture,

color, dark and light, and then colors.

You know, why those colors, you
know, some recede, some proceed.

So, and then the idea of just a bit
of gold and a, so it's decade, so

they're saying was gourmet fruit or.

Extraordinary food with a gourmet twist.

So it was,

yeah, I, I can remember seeing that one.

And it's like, that's the exact,
that's how I would describe it.

This is like a gourmet sign.

I mean, it's,

yeah.

So, so the process is, I wasn't,
I never thought, how am I gonna

design this or what should I do?

Or I start looking at other,
don't look at anything else.

And actually my, my inspiration,
I look at glass blowers.

I go to the museum, I
look there at painters.

You know, I hear like everything.

I don't look at signs and the, that's such

a good tip.

Yeah.

Like, hey, because that's usually like
the first place that people started.

And I can remember back when I was
like throwing out 20 designs a week.

It was like, Hey, hey.

That's the first thing I would do is like,
okay, like I gotta get pretty good idea.

Let me Google this and see like what
everybody else has put together for Yeah.

This type of business or something, you

know?

And it's a, and it's
an easy common mistake.

And I did that for eight years until I
met my mentor and he said, he says no.

And it's, I call it top down stuff.

He's tried to make it work and, and it
doesn't work because it's not authentic.

It's coming from our heads.

It's our minds are very
limited in their ability.

You know, I like the saying of,
we never saw anything by thinking.

And so it's more of a, from the
ground up, it's more of a felt thing.

And it makes sense
because, you know, when I.

So a client comes to me and, and so
after I've designed it, I sit down and I

reiterate their business and the criteria
I've made, and they, they agreed to that.

I said, so, and here's the design.

I don't show them design right off.

Usually it's a half hour conversation
before I present design and then

say, here have these elements, uh,
communicate these values you have.

And then, and then it's okay.

Some say, okay, what happens?

I think with a lot of sign companies,
the client goes home and they ask their

janitor or their friends or their husband
or their wife, whether they think of the

design and they'll put it in the 2 cents.

And I, so I usually give them the advice.

I say, if you ask.

People in your life, your opinion on this.

I said ask 'em how it makes them feel.

Cuz that's the language
we're, we're using.

And that's the language that's
gonna get people in your store.

You're essentially, you wanna seduce them.

I, I had a lot of clients where they
say, I had people come into my store

and they didn't, they said I was, I
saw you sign and I had to come in here.

Where do you do?

How can I sign up?

And I think it's because when
you design that way, there's

a, there's an intuitive natural
elements that go into it, you know?

Um, I think, and then in
the book you'll read that.

And I think that's, there's
a lot of power to that.

You know, especially,
we don't see it a lot.

We see square buildings and really bad
architecture, and we're surrounded by,

you know, disconnected food, you know,
fast food, disconnected architecture,

you know, bigger, cheaper, faster.

Like how, yeah.

Yes.

And our society is like, we're just.

It's like eating fat, junk food.

You just want more and more and
more and the more you eat, the

more you fast you want to go.

And I think, you know,
you just get numb to that.

But then there's something that speaks
to our true nature in all of us,

our true beings as part of nature.

That's why we all love going in nature,
not just cuz there's birds tweeting

and it's fresh airs because we look
around and we see ourselves in nature

proportionately and and structurally.

So there's something in that that's
quite powerful and such a great tool

for sign designer and also ultimately,
your client who's going to have.

Lots of people come through and the right
people come through through their doors.

And the thing is, you know, typical
too, a lot of them have a business

and they spend all this money inside.

I said they have no idea what's inside
unless you get them in the door.

Not just people, but the right clientele.

So it's a whole art and science to that
and whole psychology to it as well.

I just, I look at Mike and like,
I, I dunno if you, you just like

put him in like a design coma or

Mike's at a trance right now.

I know.

I used to my workshops, I'd have
a whole day of that and just take

I, what I do, put my designs up
and I deconstruct, deconstruct.

And it's like worlds within
worlds within worlds.

It's, it's like something so simple.

They can say so much.

I think that's when they, I think
when people look at the design

set, Created that I've done.

They see, they feel it, but they just
don't know what it is they say it's

so simple, but they're say so much.

I think it's along those lines.

I think we're all great designers.

We just, our heads get in the way,
you know, and it's easy to do in

our world, you know, it's just
fast, cheap, and, and lots of it.

Yeah.

So if you were to, oh, Mike,
I'm sorry, I interrupted you.

I, I heard you take a breath.

You're about to launch into it.

Oh,

no, no, you're fine man.

Go ahead.

Okay.

All right.

I was gonna say, SHA like if you had
to give like the average sign shop that

is doing like the standard stuff out
there, like one or two bits of advice

right now, what would you tell them?

How can they be better?

Yeah.

You know, this isn't gonna,
doesn't happen overnight, and I.

You know, you have to carry
on with business and commerce.

I think if there's something creative
in you that you want to express, or

you're feeling frustrated with your
work, frustrated with your clients,

or, or frustrated with not getting the
jobs you want, or competing on price,

hold on, then start injecting that.

Start, start bringing the designer to
the fore, uh, and go learn about design.

You know, don't look at other
science, don't look at other things.

If you are looking at other
things, don't look at science,

but look at things you see.

Just could be anything.

Architecture or what, what someone's
dress, you know how they dress.

And try to understand what is it in that,
that I really like and try to understand.

So if you try to understand.

Design that way and start to
educate yourself on design.

There's some good books out there, and
even just the fundamentals of design

and color theory and all the rest, and
just start injecting it into your work.

Start coming forward and say,
you know, I'm a designer first.

We are a design oriented company
and this is the value and this

is how we, this is why you should
come to us instead of someone else.

Does anyone get assigned anywhere?

You know, and, and mediocre signs
are everywhere and it's, it's not

a judgment call, it's just the fact
that they're not designed well.

It's like McDonald's, it's still
food, but it's not healthy.

It doesn't do anybody any good
other than the bottom line.

So yeah, I would just tell him to
start to become better designers and,

and look into what that is and, and
stop looking at other people's signs.

You can look at them and say,
that's, that's wonderful, but

that's someone else's solution
for a very specific problem.

And, but if you wanna, if you
insist on looking at science,

what is it about that you like?

I mean, take away the goal, take away
all the, the glitz and, and the bells

and whistles, and it should stand
as black and white image without any

color, without anything like that.

And I, I, that's another
thing with design too.

It'd have to stand in on two dimension
if, and then all the three dimension

does is enhance those features.

It just tunes that design a little more.

So, yeah, just, and you know what?

Get away from the computer.

Start, start sketching.

Start.

You know, we have, I heard a
scientist say once that we have

ancestral memory in our hand.

And I know a lot of intuition
comes through our hands.

So, You're not even aware of what you're
doing sometimes, and you think, oh,

what that is cool and what's going on?

So you follow it.

So yeah, get out, start sketching,
start using your hands and look at type,

like typography too is misunderstood.

I only use about three or four typefaces
and type has a, uh, an expression and

has, uh, expression, uh, in so many ways.

You know, the, like Roman lettering
and some block lettering, gothic

lettering is all proportion to our
human body, you know, so there's,

there's a connection there.

So educate yourselves.

Mike a makes better designer, just

a handful of typeface.

I asked Mike for a
recommendation the other day.

He gave me like, he's like 12.

I was designing a t-shirt for
my kids' preschool graduation.

He's like, here's 12 possible ones.

I was like, dude, I came to
you because I just wanted one.

Like that's,

I never give my clients choice either.

I never, I don't do three designs.

I do one design.

Yeah, it's so true.

You know, I, you know, my, when
I was first getting mentored,

he said, it's so simple.

I have to think of as, it's either
circles, rectangles, or triangles

or circle squares and triangles.

That was it.

Everything in the world
is of those things.

So it's, I always say it's a, you
know, English is my second language

and visual language is my first.

And I think, you know, as people as
human race, we have tens of thousands

of years of development in that area.

So if we, if we understand
that, the more we can understand

it and it'll be lifetimes.

Before we can articulate it, but
if we can understand that somewhat,

we can communicate through signs
or any, any other visual medium.

I think it's all about connection.

Bottom line.

We all wanna connect, you know,
whether it's doing more, doing more

drugs or working or, or searching for
that, you know, the next product that

you're gonna throw in the garbage.

It is just, we want connection.

So I think good design does that.

And you know, I always think it was, um,
people have always liked my signs, but

I think it's not, not because they're
signs because of this other, they just

connect with it on a, on a deeper level.

Yeah, yeah.

That, that we don't normally
do in, in everyday life.

So, you know, there is, there is a
place in the sign industry for that.

If anything, there's a big opening for
that because everybody's going this

way and you can go do the other thing.

And even if it's just really good
design, understand becoming the sign

experts, the design experts, no, it's
just in the way of, you know, this

is how I think your sign should look.

It's like this is the solutions
for your, for your business.

Very powerful.

Mike, what were, did you
remember what you were gonna say?

No.

No.

This is either

very encouraging or very discouraging.

No, my, my brain is, is running
a million miles an hour.

I'm, I'm thinking of, there's a lot of
parallels with what Shane is saying to

what Dan Antonelli said when we had him
on, you know, he, he, he talked a lot

about psychology of, of branding and
marketing and, and, you know, the thought

processes and psychology behind consumer
buying patterns and everything like that.

What, what attracts a
person to, to something.

So I'm thinking a lot about, about
that and I, I, I love Shanes.

Suggestion to, you know, if you're looking
for inspiration, don't look at signs.

I think that's something that on a
daily basis, I'm on Google images, like

I, because I after a while, like, how
many monument signs can you design for?

They all start looking
exactly the same, you know?

And I, and I love the.

The advice to, to not look at
signs, to look at anything else.

And, and I, you know, I, I think that
the rules of good design apply to

anything that is designed, whether
it's a sign or whether it's a, you

know, a mouse or car or, or anything.

You know, good design is good design
and I, I think there's probably a lot

that you can, a lot of inspiration
that you can gain from looking at other

well-designed objects or things that
have nothing to do with signage or

typography or advertising or anything.

Uh, is, is interesting when you're
talking to our, remember Toyota,

that they design a, a lot of their.

Cars at first with by hand.

Mm-hmm.

So their idea is that human
body kinetics create lines that

are within the golden mean.

So, and everything they
do is a lot of hands-on.

And what happens, you sit in a Toyota or
you look at a Toyota, you just feel good.

And when you sit, I've heard people
said, I love my to, it just sin.

It just feels right.

It fits.

But I don't think they're
talking physically.

I think emotionally, like it's a
really, it's very interesting as we,

you know, no matter how sophisticated
we become, we are still the same.

We still get lit up by the same
things we did thousands of years ago.

Right.

Jillian thing.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah.

It's interesting when
you describe it that way.

Let's transition to the future, Shane.

Mm-hmm.

What's, what's the future for
you and for your business?

Like, what is, what is the, the future?

Well, I think, you know, You know, where
I am, uh, in my life and my career.

I would love to, I always, in my workshops
too, I'm not just doing two more,

but in the workshops I said like, I'm
just wanna hand off what I was given.

Like, it's not like I know everything
and this is the way to do it.

It's more or less showing
how to open a door instead of

tell 'em what door to open.

So I just wanna pass on the knowledge
that was given to me because it is

such a simple concept, but is so
overlooked and missed in today's society.

And I think it'll just make the world a
better place and, and make your business

more run better, more satisfying, and,
Better clients, but so many signs I

see everywhere, it's just so, there's
such disconnection around there.

So I, I want, hopefully in some form
I pass that forward, whether it's

someone suggested Zoom, cuz it's,
it's expensive to come, you know,

to get on a flight to pay for the
workshop and, and the rest of it.

But perhaps a book, uh, someone
mentioned, you know, book with all

of the design philosophy, all the
processes, all the pictures deconstructed.

So it's just one book you can
keep on hand and just kind of re

remind yourself how to go about,
not to get in your head too much.

So, I mean, perhaps a book for
me, but as far as work goes, you

know, always be a sign sign guy.

I always design signs
and consult that way.

Um, but my focus now is to
go into hand carving fully.

Cause I missed that, that part and I
never got a chance to fully explore that.

So, and it's the same approach
as I did with signs, but now I'm.

It can go and create art.

It's more art than Yeah.

Than just functional.

Yeah.

And that carving, that's, they've
been staring at me the whole time.

We've doing the podcast
behind me, right, yeah.

Behind you is like, ugh.

It's amazing, man.

And, and to think, like, when I
look at stuff like that, I, I just,

I'm like, I could never do that.

But I, I, I, I'm sure like at
one point you were probably

feeling the same way there.

It's, it's so interesting you said that,
you know, I feel I've learned so much

about life through my work, and not
just through the work, but striving to,

as you say, you know, to keep getting
better, to, I want to do more and better.

And with carving was a big one because
when I first started carving, I

think, I think I know what I'm doing.

I get it.

So, and it's just this mess.

It's like chunks missing.

And I think I, I can't
see anything anymore.

And I think it's like life, right?

It's like we just kind of, I
thought I knew what I was doing.

Now I'm just in this mess, soap.

How I started was I think, okay, I'm
gonna break it down into small pieces.

And I picked my highest and the lowest
points of the carving and now I'm just

going to break it down to simple steps.

And so by the time you
finished, you arrived.

But I could never look at that.

People like, I think we just carve it.

It's like, no, it's a series of
processes and steps to get to that point.

And at the end it just looks complex,
but it's complex cuz there's many layers,

but I can only do one layer at a time.

So there's a, I think a
lot of people could carve.

I think, uh, I used to have a little bit
of carving classes and I say, we all know

an apple, so we'll carve an apple first.

And it's amazing, um, how well
people can carve and, and.

Do this kind

of work, especially when you
can turn, turn your head off

always away, right?

Yeah, yeah.

I know.

Yeah.

So, uh, this is a, like
a, a tougher question.

What do you wanna be remembered for?

That is a good

question.

Um, I have a hard time with that question.

I kept, you know, coming up with nothing.

But I think, cause I thought my
work was never about me at all.

And I'm always uncomfortable when people
say, you have lots of talent or love,

you know, or I'm the master of this.

It's like, no, I'm not.

I'm just found a way to communicate
to something bigger than myself.

And I, I just learned to
facilitate and, and I'm glad it,

it's taught me that humility.

But I think if anything, if I
remembered for anything, I think it

would be that I honored the craft.

I was steadfast in my honoring of
the craft and didn't compromise

in any way with that, you know?

I

love that.

Yeah.

It, it, it, it definitely
comes through in your work.

A hundred percent.

So,

yeah.

Thanks Mike.

Are you just, I think I've disturbed.

I see it.

He's, he's like a little,
like, I dunno, anything.

I dunno.

Shane broke me.

That's step one though, right?

Oh yeah.

Mission accomplished.

Yeah.

You can't fix

anything that's not broken, right?

No, I, I, I, I have, I have his Instagram
and stuff open over here on my other

screen, so I'm kind of scrolling through
it as he is talking and looking at all

these signs and stuff and just, it's been,
it's been a little while since I look

at some of your work and, and it's just,
you know, part of it makes me just wanna

like, throw my hands and quit, you know?

Right now.

Screw it.

Uh, your, your, your walk through
life is really interesting and,

and really resonates with me.

It sounds like we've kind of had some,
some similar experiences with, with, with

hitting that wall and, and, and burnout.

So I, I'm just, I'm really, I apologize.

I don't mean to be quite so, so quiet.

I know I'm usually not quite the,
the quiet guy on these, but I'm just

kind of absorbing what he's saying.

It really, a lot of it really hits
home and it's, it's very pertinent to,

you know, kind of some of the things
that I'm dealing with right now.

Burnout work and, and
thinking about the future.

And yeah, for that matter, what
do I wanna be remembered for?

You know?

And I don't wanna be remembered
as being a workaholic.

Yeah.

I think that's my biggest fear myself.

Mm-hmm.

Um, especially to my kids of
like, I, I don't want to be

remembered as that to my kids.

Like, uh, hey, like, dad was
working, I, this big thing

happened and dad wasn't here.

That's big.

Oh my God, that's huge.

And I was lucky enough to work
downstairs and my kids would come

down and, and for a lot of it, for a
lot of years they wanna talk to me.

It was down in my shop.

So they'd come down, I'd stop what
I was doing and, and give them full

attention and, and talk with them.

But I didn't go on camping trips.

I didn't go hardly anywhere with
them cuz I was working all the

time with such great regret.

But I have to say though, for
my kids, every time they smell

sawdust or the smell of wood,
they think of those fond memories.

So as, hopefully I got
quality time in there.

But yeah, life.

So life's tough when you have regret.

Regret's a tough one cause you
can't do anything about that.

But guys are still in the position.

I think it, I think it's just striking
balance, just creating, creating balance

and understanding why you feel the need
to work so hard and you think of, you

know, just this whole conversation I.

You know, Dirk Rampling, his
work, are you familiar with Dirk?

He's in Australia.

Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So they came, took my workshop, his,
and through the workshop he had the same

expression as Mike, actually, more so his
eyes on him, he looked so tired, he just

like, like exasperated and beleaguered.

And it took him, he, it took him,
uh, he went back home and it slowly

absorbed, uh, into him, like processed.

And he approached his work
entirely different and differently.

And it just, he work in a matter of
few months to switched right over

completely into a whole other level
of design and did doing his own thing.

It didn't look like anyone
else's, which was pretty cool.

So, yeah, it's, it, it is, it's
like learning a new golf swing.

It's a brute at first, but after
a while it's so, so simple in.

And it's application.

And, um, Shane, tell us about
the workshops real quick.

Mm-hmm.

I know we've mm-hmm.

We've, you know, hinted around
at them a little bit, but,

um, just give us the Yeah.

Elevator pitch on those things.

Yeah.

Well, I think, you know, I, I call it,
it's, it's just a rethink on design

and it's pretty much what we've talked
about, and it's just a whole shift.

It's a, a full weekend.

People have taken it before they,
you know, it's game changer.

Danowski took it and he uses a
lot of it in his, his business.

It is, uh, it is like a, a light
bulb moment for a lot of people,

and it's changed the way they, they
do business and, and, and design.

Uh, it's three day workshop starts Friday
and goes till, uh, Sunday afternoon.

The, um, a lot of it's in class de
uh, dissecting or deconstructing

design and selling signs and.

Pretty much everything we've talked
about is the full package on that.

And also at the end of it, they, um,
they get a free design consultation

on one, uh, project for me.

Good for a year.

The first one is in, is this weekend,
and the second one is July 14th to 16th.

And, um, I have, if you know,
uh, Roger Cox, he's coming, he

had a host of signs, um, yeah.

Gary,

Gary Johnson.

His signs are unbelievable too.

Yeah, that's, that's another
one that's worth looking up if

you guys have never seen it.

Yeah.

And, uh, Noel, Noel, ham.

Ham, she does sign signs in Chatham.

She's been sign crafted quite a bit.

Yeah.

That name sounds familiar.

I've heard it.

Yeah.

Sign it.

Yeah.

Caught.

I'm sorry.

Sorry, Noel.

I forget your last name.

Uh,

that's okay.

Yeah.

We'll, we'll try to include
all these in the show

notes for sure.

Yeah.

And Gary Johnson of Great American
Sign Company, so he's coming and, and

a few others have expressed interest.

So it's interesting though.

I thought I'd get more, but you
know, it could be signs of the times.

I mean, I used to do them.

I, they were full all the time.

But, um, you know, it's
a, it's a commitment.

Not just come to the workshop, but to
wanting to change how you do business.

And, and a lot of people
think, I can't just be on me.

That that's not, not the way at all.

I mean, if you saw my work before, It
was, it was mediocre at, at best it was.

And um, I keep it around.

It's just like, well,

yeah, yeah, sometimes you
gotta keep yourself humble.

Certainly Uhhuh.

It's just like, you know, it's
like playing in the wrong ballpark.

It's all by myself thinking
I'm doing a great job until

I go over to the other ones.

Oh, this is how you play baseball.

There you go.

That's so cool.

Well, Shane, uh, can't thank
you enough for coming on, man.

This has been such an
interesting conversation.

Definitely one of my favorite
episodes that we've recorded so far.

Uh, just we hit on so many
different things and it's.

Uh, I'm kind of like Mike in some
aspects, but I, I could still move my

mouth and words come out, so we're good.

We're good there.

Yeah.

I, Shane, I, I apologize advance.

It's, I feel like I'm gonna like, no,
like, in like two days you're gonna get

an email from me with like 8,000 questions
and thoughts and like, as this stuff just

like works its way through my brain and
all it, you know, hits me Exactly once

I'm like, oh, I should've asked him this.

I should've asked him
this, so I apologize.

Cause I'm gonna overwhelm
you with questions

pretty soon.

That's why, you know, that's why
I was telling my clients if I saw

that same look, I think just go home
and let it absorb in, come back.

Call, man, what a marinate.

You let him marinate.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But I, yeah, I've enjoyed this a lot.

I feel like I sit down at a
kitchen table with you guys.

The only thing missing is a beer at hand.

So it's, I've enjoyed it a lot.

It's been great.

It's great to talk to
sign, sign people as well.

I don't, we'll

have to invite Shane to our next
happy hour, uh, podcast episode.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That last one was a little rowdy.

Yeah.

Since you had alcohol.

Anything.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, I'm, I'm definitely more,
more verbose when I had a bottle

of that Costco Chardonnay.

There you go.

Yeah.

That's all it takes to get
my Matt or Mike in the flow.

I can't even say his name.

Yeah.

Shane, really, really awesome.

Um, talking to you.

I'm actually gonna, um, look up
your, Design versus here in a minute

and, uh, maybe see if we can come
out there to the July one, cuz it

I'd love to participate in that.

Yeah,

for sure.

And I think that one will be, you know
what, I've, it's just gonna be such a

great exchange of good sign people, you
know, Roger and, and Noella and Gary.

And, and if you guys came, I think
it would be a really, uh, memorable,

uh, event, you know, a small group.

Yeah,

I, I'd love to, I I'd love to.

I I've been wanting to get out to,
you know, I did, I did j Cook's

Science School years ago, like 25
years ago or something like that.

And that was the last one I did.

And, um, you know, I thought about
doing Dan's up in, up there in Canada

too, but I don't really, I don't
make signs anymore, so I don't know

how much I would, I would get from
his, but I, I, this, this definitely

appeals to me a lot, so, um mm-hmm.

I'm hoping I, I get to meet
you in person here in the next

couple months.

It'd be great to see you.

And, uh, Pauling Wood's a beautiful area.

It's stunning.

Truly, we have the nigro
department in Georgia and Bay.

Yeah, it's pretty

area.

I've been up in that area before.

It is, it is lovely.

Especially in July and
not the middle of winter.

Yeah,

that's such right.

That's got skis strapped to your feet.

Yeah.

Beautiful.

All right, Shane, thanks again.

Yeah,

thanks.

Pleasure, man.

Yeah, awesome, Shane.

Uh, let's keep in touch too.

I'd like that.

But hopefully you'll see, uh, both of you,
one of you at the, uh, workshop in July.

That'd be amazing.

Yeah,

I'm gonna try to come.

I'd love to be there.

Super person.

So.

All right.

Thank you for your time.

Really appreciate it.

It was a great talking to,
it was a great pleasure.

Great listening to you.

All right, thanks.

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