Better Sign Shop Podcast

Bryant Gillespie: Guys, welcome
to the fourth edition of the

better sign shop podcast.

I've got my friends, Mike
Riley and Peter Cark with me.

I don't, we still haven't settled
on a nickname for you yet.

Mike, are we gonna settle the
debate this time around or no?

Michael Riley: What are you thinking?

I can't live with sign money, Mike.

That's terrible.

maybe we could get

Bryant Gillespie: you like a
gold chain for the next one

Michael Riley: with a big clock on it.

Yeah, dude,

Bryant Gillespie: that would work.

Michael Riley: That'd be nice.

Our big Jim and I letter on it, maybe.

Peter Kourounis: What do you think about
letting our audience vote for a name?

If we put out a poll on our
Facebook channel, or do you think

about letting them just decide?

Michael Riley: I have very
mixed emotions about that.

I feel like it would be great for,
engaging with our audience, but

at the same time, I really don't
know if I, how I feel about that.

Peter Kourounis: Lila gave
me the sign, shop, Yoda name.

I didn't come up with that.

And I just accepted it.

I said, sure.

That sounds great.

Let's do it.

Michael Riley: All right.

Yeah.

Let's throw a pull up.

let's let him drag me through the mud.

I,

Bryant Gillespie: I, I think it's gonna
end up being signed money or signed bunny,

Michael Riley: like I'm
down with sign bunny.

that's been like my personal
brand for 15 years as the weird

dude in the pink bunny suit.

So I just lean into it.

but if the audience has a better
suggestion, I will, well, we'll leave

Peter Kourounis: it up to the
audience then that's what we'll do.

We'll put out a poll.

Hopefully when we record the next episode
number five, you'll have a new name.

Michael Riley: can't wait,
well, make can't wait.

Peter Kourounis: We'll make that announce.

We'll make that announcement.

this'll

Michael Riley: be fun.

Yeah.

Yeah, it will.

Bryant Gillespie: Okay, so what's
what's the new with you guys?

Peter Kourounis: Well, I just
got back from sunny, Florida.

Nice little convention.

Happy to be back where.

The weather is approximately in the
nineties and not upper one hundreds.

so it's nice to be back.

Bryant Gillespie: Don't walk
outside and start sweating.

Mike

Michael Riley: doesn't
like Florida at all.

I'm not a Florida fan, no offense
to our Florida listeners, but

well stick with my Oregon weather.

Peter Kourounis: I can easily
see why you don't like Florida.

I mean, it was, I went to Disney.

I went to Disney.

There's tons of kids running
around, but I have absolutely.

I was thinking about this the other day.

What is Disney's monthly electric bill
like, like that is, they think you got AC

in every room, all these like fireworks
and pyro techniques and lighting.

I'm thinking to myself, do they spend, is
it like 50 million a month in electric?

Like I have no idea.

Do they generate their own electric?

It caused it stem like a huge conversation
between me and my counterparts, but.

Because of all how hot it was.

It was so hot that if this was
like it, their ACS pumping out

64 degrees everywhere you go in
lobbies and restaurants, I'm like,

and it's all owned by Disney.

So I'm wondering myself,
what does that look like?

Michael Riley: Peter's having
an existential breakdown

over to Disney's power bill.

Yeah, man.

No, you know what I mean, think
about it's really super hot there.

So you want to go inside one
of the buildings and cool off.

Right?

Well, all those buildings
are trying to sell you shit.

So for them, it's probably just
a loss leader to get people,

to buy more stuff inside.

Unless they point they make a
billion dollars a minute too.

So it's dropping the bucket.

Peter Kourounis: Unbelievable.

Anyway, I'll go back.

I like Disney.

I like Epcot drinking in, in, in Germany
was like my favorite part of the trip.

Gotta love those grapefruit beers.

I had a couple of them.

They were really

Michael Riley: amazing.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

When it's 90 degrees outside.

Yeah, nothing better.

Yeah.

A hundred hundred, hundred degrees.

Peter Kourounis: well, anyway,
happy to be back I'm I'm in the, I'm

in the trenches now with my staff
and my partner at my sign shop.

There's a lot to catch up on, but
definitely, definitely happy to be

recording our next episode here.

Bryant Gillespie: Excellent.

Well, Mike, you got an update or no?

Michael Riley: outside of designing signs.

My life pretty much revolves
around this house renovation

that I'm in the middle of.

my, my future wife and I bought a house.

We were bored during COVID.

we just didn't have anything to
do cause everything was closed.

So we're like let's buy a
fixer upper and remodel it.

So two years ago we bought a house
that was definitely a fixer upper.

And we, got a $40,000 budget and
three month timeline to get it

remodeled and moved into we're.

August 1st will be the second anniversary.

And we just crossed
the $200,000, marked on

So

Bryant Gillespie: you're way under
budget then way under budget.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

And we're, I mean, it's like half done.

Like we can live in it,
but the house is no joke.

It's only like halfway there.

We got a lot of work to go.

So the last week I've been
spending a lot of time in the yard.

We've completely demoed our yard
and I've got some excavation

equipment coming here tomorrow.

So if I'm not designing signs, I'm just
completely drenched and sweat outside.

And 90 degree, Oregon weather digging
holes in the yard and trying to revive it.

So that's pretty much all
I do my for time often.

Bryant Gillespie: How often do friends and
family give you like the money pit joke?

Michael Riley: Almost daily,
but I mean, like it's, I've

leaned into it at this point.

If anybody's ever seen that movie,
that is the most accurate portrayal of.

My life that you'll ever see it's
well, I actually, I can't watch it.

Money pit, old eighties movie with
Tom Hanks and Shelly long, they buy

a fixer upper and like everything
that can go wrong will go wrong.

and it's really, that's a funny
check it up, but yeah, it's worth it.

I can't bring myself to watch it
cuz I'll just start crying the

second it comes on, but yeah.

I, and I was laying in bed the other
day thinking okay, we paid, we spent

half a million dollars on this house.

Not including what we put into.

And then literally the only thing left
on this house is the land that it sits

on and the roof and the framing, like
everything else has been completely

ripped out of it and replaced.

So I spent a lot of money on a
pile of two by fours essentially.

And it's something I have
to live with every day.

Well, I wish I

Peter Kourounis: brand, it looks

Bryant Gillespie: nice, man.

It looks

Michael Riley: nice.

It's good.

Thank you.

It's getting there.

Peter Kourounis: I take it that
you did not hire like a contractor.

Michael Riley: No, I have done, he

Bryant Gillespie: signed money, Mike
dude, he could build his own house.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

I have done 99% of the
work on the house, myself.

The only thing that I've hired out
so far was a plumber to come in and

set our bathtub and our one of the
shower pans, because of everything

that goes in the building, a house,
most of it is a technical kind of

skill that you can easily learn.

Plumbing is a freaking art and there's
witchcraft involved and it's not for me.

So anything that involves like heavy
plumbing, I've outsourced, I have re

plumbed like half the house myself,
but I just didn't wanna mess with that.

But yeah, we've rewired the house.

All new flooring, subfloor,
drywall, insulation, like

everything down to the stubs is new.

And it's all been by.

Did you sold your

Peter Kourounis: pipes or
did you crimp your fittings?

I actually, I hear on, I hear
that crimping is becoming more and

more popular with piping a house.

Yeah.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

So I, I did a little bit of both.

I did some copper, which I'm
not a huge fan of, but I did.

And then most of it is actually re
plumbed with, the pecks plastic piping.

Yeah.

Yeah.

The press fit fittings.

which hopefully, I don't know,
like we only plan to stay in this,

like the, to add insult injury.

Like we plan to live in this house for two
or three more years in the room sell it.

So I don't really care if the
plumbing leaks, after we move out.

Peter Kourounis: I feel
bad for that home buyer.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

got the numbers, stumble,
belong to this podcast.

You're fucked.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

Whoever buys Mike's house do
not listen to this episode.

Bryant Gillespie: 5, 5, 5 main

Peter Kourounis: street, full
one, 800 plumber when you need it.

Michael Riley: We're we're keeping a blog
of our progress on the house actually.

So, maybe in the show notes, we'll
put a link to our blog up there.

If anybody wants to like
commiserate with me or just make

fun of me and say, what's asking,

Peter Kourounis: oh, that's nice.

So you are document.

So you are documenting the process.

Huh?

That's cute.

I like that.

I like that.

I would like to get that
link, send it to me.

I will look to, to see how you're

Michael Riley: doing.

Yeah.

Feel free to make all the
fun of me that you want.

Cuz I deserve

Bryant Gillespie: it.

He owe you want for the fast

Peter Kourounis: signs.

yeah, you guys just.

That's true.

I do owe you want, but I'm
not gonna make fun of anybody.

I'm the one that gets made
fun of, so it's been my life.

It's been my life.

So ask my buddy, Matt, my buddy,
Matt we're damn near 40 years old.

He still makes fun of me.

Like we're 10.

Bryant Gillespie: At least
you're not getting made of

fun of by your four year old.

Michael Riley: not yet.

Could

Peter Kourounis: we, not yet.

Bryant Gillespie: I've started
taking, Hey, our middle daughter

fishing a lot more and actually
just twice in the last week.

And we went once or twice before
she, nobody caught anything after

two and a half hours in the hot sun.

You just sitting there like she's,
I'd look over she's kicking rocks.

so finally this last time that we
went out, she caught like 12 fish.

I call it one, because I'd spent most of
the time loading her, pull up with worms

and untangling, whatever mess, but she had
the, the audacity after we were done to

tell me that I wasn't a good fisherman.

And that she could help me,
ah, learn how to catch fish.

Nice.

Peter Kourounis: That's
get right on the chin.

got to

Bryant Gillespie: all the time.

All right.

so today's topic.

This is a fun one.

apparently Mike's future wife said he's
not a football guy, so this will be fun.

The topic today is stop fumbling,
the handoff, like what does

stop fumbling the handoff mean?

Michael Riley: Well, apparently I'm not a
football guy, so I can't define that one.

You don't even know what
a handoff is or a fumble.

this is not true.

Go bucks.

I love football.

so a lot of the problems that we
regularly encounter in a lot of shops,

are communication breakdowns just from
one department to the next and, how jobs

can fall apart, fall through the cracks.

When it changes hands from say, sales
to design or design to production

or production to installation.

that where that handoff takes place.

I would say 80 to 90% of the
shops that, that I've worked with.

And I think Brian, you and
I have talked about this.

This is probably true for you too.

They all, in some ways shape or form
mess up that, that handoff there between

department and that a lot of times is not
the only factor, but one of the biggest

contributing factors to missed deadlines,
margin drain, customer experience.

Right?

Yeah.

pretty much any problem that a
sign shop faces seems like can be

tracked that back to that in some
way, shape or form in most cases,

Bryant Gillespie: you gotta
say shape form or fashion

Michael Riley: shape, form, or fashion.

Yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

We've got, I mean, West Virginia,
we've got a governor, his name's

big Jim and that is his tagline.

he started doing the COVID
briefings after he saw Andrew

Cuomo on there and he was, he.

He thought he was gonna
score popularity points.

And there was one where he was like
trying to put the mask on his face

and it covered his eyes and they
like everybody in the state started

making memes about him and stuff.

But, that's what he says, guys, we
gotta get vaccinated in whatever

shape, form, or fashion that you

to derail you there.

Oh, no, I we'll add some of the
memes to the show notes as well.

,
Michael Riley: I'm fascinated
by West Virginia politics.

So that's where my mind is at
now thinking about Joe mansion.

Bryant Gillespie: Oh yeah.

Yeah.

He's another character as well.

Michael Riley: He's a winner.

yeah, so I think that's a really
critical thing that, that every

shop owner, really needs to look at.

I mean, it, it falls in line with
what we, especially Peter always

preaching, systems and processes.

you, I think that's.

It's almost like such a big, all
inclusive thing that is just so woven

into a daily operation of your business.

That, I think a lot of
people almost miss it.

It's kinda like a forest for the trees
kind of thing, but it's definitely

something that I think should be
addressed in top of mind for every

sign shop owner is something that you
should always be trying to improve on as

efficiently moving that job from person
to person or department to department

with minimal, friction in there with

Bryant Gillespie: minimal loss.

Yeah.

and I think it, when you're small,
it's a lot easier, because there's four

or five people they're, everybody's
wearing different hats, but the

communication flows a lot easier at
that point, because it's like, Hey, I

could just reach out and yell at you,
especially if you're in a small facility.

Michael Riley: Right.

Or it's just you all day.

If you're just a one man shop,
there's nobody to hand it off to.

It's all in your head.

Bryant Gillespie: But yeah, as soon
as you start to grow, that handoff and

you start formalizing the different
roles and, and instead of one person

having three different roles, that
person just has one dedicated role.

this problem compounds at that point.

I think

Peter Kourounis: yeah, there's
a lot to be said about this.

This is a very interesting topic.

And Mike, I'm actually glad that you
wanted to run with this here on our fourth

episode, but you know, as you look through
a small shop or a large shops systems,

right, you have, let's just break it
down pretty simply for our listeners.

You'll have your sales department,
you'll have your design department,

your production and department, possibly
even your installation department.

So that might like you sent Brian,
that might be two or three people.

, but for the sake of this conversation,
let's just assume that you have

that broken down into departments.

Now one person handles two or
three of those roles then so be it.

But for the sake of this conversation,
let's break it down to sales production,

sorry, sales, design, production,
and installation in that flow.

So where does that break down?

It breaks down in the cracks
of each department, right?

So in between sales and design,
that's where it breaks down in

between design and production.

That's where it breaks down.

So what is the key differentiator there?

What's the common
denominator of that problem?

It seems to me like it
would be communication.

Right.

Would you agree with that?

That the common denominator
of where we can fumble the

handoff is in communication?

right.

would you agree?

Michael Riley: I agree.

Yeah.

It's definitely a fundamentally
a communication problem.

Peter Kourounis: So at the surface,
if you're having a communication

problem, that's where the plug in
the system needs to be generated.

If you need to fill those cracks,
it's inside the communication.

So what can you do as the owner of
your company to fill those cracks?

Now I have some ideas, in my shop for
many years, almost since the day I started

not quite since the day I started, but
almost morning meetings, morning rally

meetings, every morning, apple does it.

Every apple store does it.

That's where I got the idea
from morning rally meetings.

Let's go over some talking points.

Let's go over some points, any it's
15 minute meeting between 8, 8, 15

in the morning, or depending on what
time of the day you guys get started.

But if you could dedicate a
portion of your day to arriving

on that time before you put.

You're bag down or you
turn on your computer.

You're just gonna participate
in a rally meeting where okay.

Go through the pipeline once more,
anybody have any questions on what they

think that they're supposed to be doing?

Mike, you're gonna,
don't forget about this.

I may have forgot to tell you that
yesterday, but don't forget about

getting in touch with this guy today.

I want an answer from that problem, or I
want an answer from that customer today.

So just those healthy daily
reminders from in a team building

exercise can really go a long way.

Bryant Gillespie: do you guys have
a fast signs, like song that you

sing or like a chant or anything?

Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

Hey, Hey,

Michael Riley: fast signs.

Hey, Hey, fast

Peter Kourounis: signs.

Yeah, no, no, we don't.

We don't do a seance or a song or
a kumbaya or anything else that

you Virginians want to call it?

No mean I,

Bryant Gillespie: I have got a couple
cousins that used to work for Walmart

back in the day when they used to
do all that, like the rah rah stuff.

Peter Kourounis: I mean, listen, if
you're listen, there's a bunch of brands.

One that comes to mind right now is
called horsepower brands and they

ha they're like amazing at that.

You know, the whole clapping, applauding
rooting for your colleague to succeed.

If they succeed, we
succeed like that culture.

To me, one of the best
types of cultures there are.

So if you can infuse that
type of RA rawness into your

business, I'm in favor of it.

Even if you have four people or
40 people, that to me is, it's

exciting for your customer base.

You wanna announce that do blogs
on it, do video content on it.

Because that to me is a big differentiator
between what you're, what you could do

and what your competition is not doing.

So that's just another fact toy that
I like to throw in here, but getting

back to my point, Communication.

those rally meetings tend to lead to other
types of communication points, right?

Maybe you want to have a once a week
meeting for two hours with your staff,

put it in the middle of the week
on a Wednesday, so that you had the

beginning of the week to talk about
and what you're doing the rest of the

week to talk about, that's a really
great glue point sticky point so that

you can mend these cracks that you
have in your system in communication.

I'm not saying that there's any

Bryant Gillespie: the
concept of a team meeting.

Oh, go ahead.

Sorry.

I jumped right in.

I thought you were done.

Go ahead.

I killed him.

Michael Riley: He just crashed.

He just like, he shut down.

Peter Kourounis: Why do you interrupt me?

Yeah.

I, why, what is it about, what is,
what was it about my last sentence

that made you think I was done?

I don't know.

Okay.

Bryant Gillespie: Don't do it.

It's the internet.

it's slow.

It's slow.

Peter Kourounis: Yeah.

Yeah.

Blame, blame your internet, the internet.

Bryant Gillespie: You got it.

Slow internet.

I got it.

Peter Kourounis: very good point.

There it is.

So you were saying you really
like the idea of a weekly meeting.

Go ahead.

Bryant Gillespie: Going.

I do.

I do like the idea of a weekly
meeting and I wish more shops

would actually implement that.

and number one is just, you gotta have
that FaceTime between departments, because

communication is all about relationships.

And when you're a small shop, those
relationships come pretty easy because

you're working right alongside everybody.

But if you've got a formal structure
and you've got 10, 15, 20 employees,

you've gotta have that FaceTime
between departments, whether that's

just department heads that are working
together with each other, But you

gotta have that time and space for them
to come together and say, okay, Hey,

here's the list of priorities this week?

what are some of the challenges
that, that you guys are having?

What are some of the
issues that have came up?

How can we help if I'm sales out?

How can I help design?

Or if I'm design, how can I help you guys?

I think those,

Peter Kourounis: yeah, if you come,
if you come into those meetings with

the, as an owner, I'm speaking to my
owners right now, not the employee side.

If you're owner, if you're an owner and
you're coming into those meetings and

you have absolutely no idea what to talk
about, I wanna tell you that's okay.

I wanna tell you I've done that many
times where I just wanted to like,

take the temperature of my team.

I wanted see what I could do to help,
or if they were seeing something

that they didn't like, I wanted to
hear about, it was an open forum.

So if you don't have an agenda to
these meetings, here's a little tip.

If you put your meeting in the week
of, in the middle of the week, on a

Wednesday, if you're open Monday to
Friday and you put it on a week on a

Wednesday, talk about what happened to
the past two days and talk about what

you're gonna do the next two days.

It's a very simple conversation.

Make it an hour.

If you wanna have it for two hours,
I recommend you could do that too.

But this is a way it's
a culture building time.

It's a way to glue your cracks in
your system, but when you infuse

technology into it, which is my
next point, I want to bring in.

So don't interrupt me again.

Bryant, when you bring in the technology
piece, how are you able to really

supercharge your communication?

Right?

So just like in our, just
like in our, better sign shop

community group on Facebook, like
everybody communicates there.

If you can create a forum for
which employees can communicate

with owners in and out of the.

Right.

Managers are in and outta the office,
salesmen are in and outta the office,

installers are in and out of the shop.

So if you could create like a group
chat, a slack channel, a wor a Facebook

workplace community group for your
business, depending on your size, this

is a really great opportunity to just
put in a great place, different channels.

if you have ideas, create a allowing
your staff to have a voice with

technologies, a really great tip.

Number two, if you will, for what I
think is a great way of com padding

your communication, improving upon your
communication with your team, and also

subsequently building up your culture.

Would anybody like to comment on that?

Michael Riley: Yeah, I, I,
a hundred percent agree with

what Peter just said there.

I think removing friction from the
communication process is critical.

And with technology now, you mentioned
slack, I think slack is great, cuz you

can, message anybody at any time and get
a response right back on a job without

having anything fall through the cracks.

And you can even automate, Brian
and speak to this, but you can

obviously, automate some things to
automatically send messages in slack.

If a job reaches a certain milestone
in your system or whatever.

So slack is definitely a,
a really powerful tool.

To help eliminate some
of that friction in the

Peter Kourounis: conversation process.

All right.

So for our, for, so for our listeners out
there, Mike, let, I'm gonna put Brian on

the spot here for our listeners out there
that for our listeners out there that are

don't use slack, don't know what slack is.

We use slack here at the
better sign shop community.

We use slack to communicate with one
on our, I don't even have Mike's cell

phone number, but I do communicate
with Mike every day through slack.

So Bryant, here's an interesting
question for our listeners.

Give them a tip.

What type of automations can they
do within the slack environment

that can help improve poor
communication within the team?

Bryant Gillespie: Poor communication
within the team with slack?

yeah.

So with slack, one of the nice
things and it basically slack is

nothing more than like a team.

A work oriented group chat, basically
you set up different channels.

I can message someone directly.

the nice thing about slack is all
these integrations that it has, like

these apps that are built into it.

or you could use something like
SAP here or some of these other, no

cold, no code tools to actually pipe
information from the different apps.

So, let's say if something happens
inside the design department, maybe

you're using Trello or some other
system to do your design management.

If somebody adds a comment to
a card inside Trello, you could

potentially post that in slack.

and slack kind of becomes the
hub for team communication.

so there's a lot of
little things like that.

It's really hard to spout
something off the cuff without

knowing the specific use case.

what kind of tools people are
using, but it is really nice that

you can put information right.

Where you are likely to see it most.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

One I like you mentioned there,
it would be like you said, Trello.

So if you have, different columns that
are Trello board for, each department,

you've got a column for design and one
for prepress and one for printing, and

then one for whatever you can, when
that card is drugged from saving the

prepress column to the print column or
whatever, you can set up an automation

that, sends a slack message to your
printer operator that says, Hey,

this job has been released to you.

Basically.

They just get a, you can use it almost
just as a notification system, as much as

a, two-way communication tool, that will
ping them on their phone or whatever.

Assuming they've got the slack app on
their phone, it just keeps everybody

on the same page and moving forward.

And that's, I think that's a really,
something like that's a really great one,

whether using Trello or air table or.

Whatever tool you're using, you
can usually set up some sort of

a similar integration like that.

When a job changes status.

Peter Kourounis: One of the
things that I use in my shop,

I, we use slack in our shop.

So when our POS system, when
a customer makes a payment,

it'll notify the sales staff.

When, you could do that in an email,
but if you have multiple members of

your staff, if the owner wants to
know, if the salesperson wants to

know, if the CSR wants to know, you
can centralize those communications to

know oh, we got received the payment.

now what has to happen in
our next step of our process?

Or if a design was approved, it'll not
only will it alert the designer, but the

alert will come into a design channel.

And all the members, including the
owner, maybe the project manager, maybe

that designer will all be notified.

So a little bit of a way to bring in more
communication, because we all have emails,

but we don't read each other's emails.

In other words, I have my email,
Brian has his, so if he gets an alert,

only Brian will be able to know.

So if you bring that alert into a public
space where everybody can be notified

of what's going on, that's not even an
automation, that's just simply changing

the email address in your POS to notify
when this alert happens, set it up to this

slack channel address instead so that,
everybody can see it in a public form.

So that's another way.

And just another tip of how
slack is a really great tool.

I think I did a video on
slack of many months ago on my

former YouTube channel here.

And I believe Slack's a really great tool.

To help, not only create that game
plan, but also enforce the game plan.

If you're gonna emphasize communication,
as your primary bottleneck in

your cracks in your system.

Well then firming up that
communication with technology is a

really great opportunity to do that.

And, you can monitor everybody's
engagement, you can see, who's

actually paying attention.

Who's not paying attention.

So it's a really great from a manager
and owner's perspective, really great

tool to help, communicate better.

Yeah.

But again, solve that problem.

I'm gonna,

Bryant Gillespie: I'm
gonna throw one more out.

there's an app that I've been using.

I've put a couple clients onto this.

It's called missive is the name of it.

M I S S I V E if you're looking
for it, it's missive app.com.

It is actually a team inbox.

So instead of everybody having their own
like separate inbox, all your emails would

come into one single source of truth,
one inbox that everybody shares, and then

they can collaborate inside that inbox.

and one of the things that I really like
about it, it, it functions like a regular

email client, like an outlook or Gmail.

But the difference is if I, if you're
on my team inside submissive, I can

mention your name and we can have our
own conversation inside an email thread.

So if I need to get your input
before I have to send out an email

to a client, maybe about a quote
or, know, maybe Hey, what are,

what were the design specs on this?

Again?

I can mention it right.

In context of that email, you could
see the email chain reply right

back to me, or even help me write
the draft email to the client.

Wow.

So you kind of short circuit
that like taking it from

email and posting it in slack?

Peter Kourounis: yeah.

That's there really is like an app.

There really is an app for
everything isn't there.

Yeah.

There is.

I mean, that sounds so cool.

I didn't even know about that,
but, yeah, that sounds great too.

And that might be a little easier
for some of our non technologically

savvy listeners out there.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

it does take a while to get used to, and
like I've one of the clients has even been

able to do SMS messages through there.

So like they've got set up where
somebody can text message the

business and those text messages
go right into the same inbox.

Right.

So they've got emails, texts
right in the same place.

Michael Riley: I wanna go back and hit
on something else that Peter talked

about there early on is, and that's
just a team meeting in the morning.

I think.

I think that's something that a lot
of people miss as well or overlook the

importance of is just a face to face
interface with everybody on your team.

I see a lot of shops that don't do that.

And I also, the flip side of
that is I also see a lot of

shops that take it too far.

It, I think having a morning kickoff
meeting with your team, is critical,

but it doesn't have to me really
more than five or 10 minutes,

in most cases, just, quickly run
through what's being done today.

A and really the point of that
meeting, shouldn't be telling

people how to do their jobs, right?

Like your staff knows how to do their job.

There's your staff knows how to
read your work orders and know

knows how to go through your work
and progress list and everything.

If they don't, you have a bigger problem.

And that meeting isn't
the place to address that.

Right.

But it's a great opportunity for
your staff to raise questions and

concerns about active jobs that they
otherwise may not have time to, or may

not feel like they've got a platform
to, part of effective communication

in a sh in a shop is making sure
you give everybody involved, a

free, safe space to ask questions.

Even if those are really dumb questions
that, that, they feel like, or you

may feel like shouldn't be asked.

I, if they have the question, they need to
be able to ask it and get a direct answer

to it so they can go on with their day
and without giving them that platform.

And that space to do that
job will go into production.

And they're probably just gonna
say, screw it, I'm gonna do it.

However, I feel like I can do it
without, any of that clarification.

And that's a lot of times
where mistakes happen.

So shops that implement just a
quick morning, a quick morning

rundown type meeting, where they
address those concerns and questions

tend to operate a lot, smoother.

in my shop, I did a
morning meeting like that.

That was, generally wasn't more
than 10 minutes or so, just going

through the day's priorities and
what needs to be addressed and what

questions and concerns the staff has.

And then every Monday morning, we did
a larger, more like a full blown, 30

to 45 minute production meeting where
we really went into detail, the week's

priorities, things that are going on.

And that's, and we've talked
about this in the past too.

We had a Kaban type or Kaizen type session
where, everybody was, encouraged to bring.

Fresh ideas to the table to
improve processes and flows.

but that can be a separate
conversation from just a quick morning.

Hey, let's all get on the same page
type of a meeting, but that's critical.

Don't overlook that, too many shops do.

so it's really important to, to,
that's a great way to get buy in from

your staff too, and get them all,
excited about what you're doing and

encourage them to take ownership.

And what they're doing,

Bryant Gillespie: would you say that
needs to happen like at the shop level?

Let's say there's a shop
with 1520 employees.

Is that happen at the shop level
or is that like by department?

Michael Riley: I think that the,
like the bigger, like I said,

like the Monday morning meeting,
like that's a little bit longer.

I feel like that's more appropriate
to have the entire shop involved.

all departments, an all hands on
deck type meeting, because there's a

lot of alignment that has to happen
from department two department.

I think the quick morning rundown type
meeting that you do every morning,

doesn't need to involve the entire shop
necessarily, especially if you're a larger

shop with 20, 30, 40 employees or more
that can become a really cumbersome thing

to organize and get everybody together.

But I, I think that should
at least be done on a, on a

department by department basis.

The sales team should have
a quick meeting like that.

The production team should have a quick
meeting like that design should and so on,

and you can all do it at the same time.

So the entire shop is meeting,
doing this at the same time.

and then most of the larger shops
that I've worked with that really

are divided up into, hard and fast
departments with each department has

a manager or department head in it.

most of those shops that I've seen
prior to doing these individual,

department type rundowns, the department
heads will all meet for five or 10

minutes first, and they'll all align
and be on the same page for the day.

And then they'll go and distill
that information down, see their.

Their individual respected departments.

that can be done the first
30 minutes of your day.

sounds like a, a big time commitment
if you're doing it every single day,

but, I think the benefits of it far
outweigh, spending a few minutes,

aligning with everybody else in the shop.

Bryant Gillespie: yeah.

I agree with you a hundred percent.

I think that alignment, if you
have managers in each department,

if they're not communicating well,
then you're up shit Creek, right?

Michael Riley: Like it's bad.

and it's amazing in this industry,
like that's really pervasive.

I've talked to so many shop owners
that they don't do anything to make

sure that installation team is on
the same page as the production team.

And if you.

if you're producing a lot of say
electrical science, channel letters,

monument science, things like that.

The installation part of it is part and
parcel of production really in, in the two

key together and have to go hand in hand.

And if there's no, no daily alignment
between those two teams, when something

comes outta production, it's gonna be just
a complete shock to installation, right?

and then installation's caught with
their pants down and they've gotta

figure out how now to get this sign on
the wall, but doing those daily rundowns

really quickly between departments.

Well, you're, your sales team can,
your sales manager can say, Hey

production, we've got this job coming
down the line and be prepared for.

And a production can say, Hey,
this set of channel letters is

three days out for being completed.

So installation, you need to, be thinking
about getting that on the schedule now

versus in three days when we get it done.

tho those little things like that
can save fires on the back end.

If you just put a little bit of
forth on, into communicating.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah.

I wanna back up for a minute and ask
both of you, Michael Peter, as far as

what are some of the symptoms of this
miscommunication or this fumbling, the

handoff for, let's say we're talking to
an owner out there that, may or may not

know that they're having this problem
or they're not sure the root cause.

Like what are some of the symptoms that
they can be able to pick up on that?

Okay.

Hey, we've got a problem
here at these handoff points.

Peter Kourounis: Well, a lot of
that might actually come from the

customer, customer complaints.

If you have some customer
complaints and it's set it around

communication, there that's a
telltale sign of it being a problem.

If that's happening more frequently,
you might wanna address that.

If you're having customer,
I'm sorry, not customer.

If you're having employee arguments
or altercations, or maybe even just a

disagreement of some sort, and that's
becoming a more common occurrence.

That's another sign, sometimes the, yeah,
the signs are not gonna be something

that you have to like search for.

You'll they'll be front and center.

They're usually fires
that you have to put out.

Right.

Where does the fire start from?

Is it a communication issue?

Is it a disagreement?

Is it, he said, she said, is
it, you forgot to do this?

And I put it here that
told you to do this.

So those things are gonna come naturally.

They'll if you're an, if you're an owner
and you're saying that you don't have

these problems, I don't believe you.

but.

Because listen, you're small.

Most of us are small business owners.

You're medium sized business owners.

You're gonna have problems.

If you don't have problems, call me.

I want to invest in your business.

I, I'm not

Bryant Gillespie: saying
they don't have problems.

I'm just saying they might not
realize okay, here's this is

actually the root of the problem.

And not just, like
something on the surface.

Peter Kourounis: I don't know if Mike's
going to agree with me or not, but what

I'm trying to say is that the problems
will present themselves, you don't,

as an owner, you're not gonna have
to look for what caused that problem.

You're gonna know

Michael Riley: that I definitely
agree the problems are gonna be

there and you're going to see them.

I think a lot of, from what I've seen,
a lot of shop owners fail to recognize

why those problems are there though.

what's causing them.

One of the things that I've seen
at the most that I think at least

internally is a great indicator, is.

It's just the level of frustration
that your staff has, especially

past the sales department.

I mean, once you get to design
production and installation, you

can usually read the pulse of your
employees and a a good conscientious

employee wants to do a good job.

And they, in order to do a good job, you
can't really have that many surprises

that just pop up throughout your day and
completely derail what you're working on,

whether you're designing, whether you are,
40 feet up in a bucket truck, or whether

you're fabricating a set of channel
letters, get into a flow, you get into the

zone and you wanna keep working on that.

And when you have an interruption
to that flow, it's frustrating

and it's legitimately frustrating.

and even, your dude, that's just glue
and trim cap channel letter faces it.

If he's constantly having to change
gears throughout the day, and he's.

Oh crap.

I, they just threw this rush job
at me or this one just popped up

and I didn't know about now I've
gotta switch gears and do that.

That can be really
frustrating to that person.

And that prevents him
from doing his best work.

And again, a conscientious employee
wants to do their best work and

they don't like those things
that prevent them from doing it.

So watching that, that employee
frustration level, I think is a really

great indicator of this because that's
a lot of the times what it's related to.

I, I agree customer feedback as well.

although a lot of times, I mean, not
that it really matters in the context

of this, but a lot of times that can be
a lagging indicator of what's going on.

Cause really you don't get the feedback
from the customer until it's too late.

I mean, you can still use it to, to look
forward and solve problems, but you know,

in, in the heat of the moment, you're not
gonna be able to rely on that right then.

And there

Bryant Gillespie: one of the
ones that I would point out is if

customers are following up with you.

if you're, if you told them that
you were gonna give them a quote a

week ago and they're following up
on that quote, that's a problem.

If you are in production and
a customer is following up and

asking, Hey, where's my job at?

That's a big problem or
a big symptom of that's

Peter Kourounis: a react.

That's a reactive approach.

your shop's being reactive at that.

At that point, you're not being
proactive with your communication.

Absolutely good point.

good point.

And Mike, good point there on the
delayed barometer of when you know, the

customer's gonna give you the information
before, when it's too late, right.

They're already upset.

So you have to, if it's an
employee dispute, that's one thing,

but you have to be the owner.

That's gonna find out those
answers before the customer gets.

But yes, I agree with you there too.

good point all the way around,

Michael Riley: another big area of
communication breakdown that I see

all too often, especially from.

The seat that I'm in currently
as a designer is, the quality of

the design request to your design
department from theoretically your

sales department, sales team, right

Bryant Gillespie: name the sales team.

Michael Riley: I feel like
that's a common thing.

No, it is.

And a lot of times it's, it is
legitimate too because sales people,

I hope no sales people that are
listening to this take offense of those.

I don't mean this offensively, but
sales people are a different breed

and they don't necessarily think
things through, in a systematic way.

In most cases, some do, we just did
the AMA with Dylan and he is somebody

who is very systematic in the way
he purchased sales, but that's rare.

And that's why Dylan's a really good
sales manager and runs a really good

sales team because he's very process
driven, but most of them are sales is

just a completely chaotic department.

It's pretty much go sell
anything you can to anybody.

However, you have to close
the sale, make it happen.

And that's the mentality that a lot
of sales people operate on is just

there, there Hells on closing the deal.

and then once it's closed, they wanna
move on to the next sale as quickly as

possible because that's their livelihood.

That's how they put food on the table.

and in the process of that, generally
the handoff between sales and the

next department in line, which
is usually sales or estimating or

designer estimating, usually that
handoff is pretty rough at best.

So I, I think developing some sort
of system or process or just form,

if nothing else, that your sales
team is required to fill out, jump

through some hoops to communicate that
information effectively to the next

person in line is really critical.

I mean, everybody's gotten an email from
an, a salesperson that says, I need a

channel letter sign that says Bob's used
tires and that's all the detail you get.

and then that's a
designer's nightmare, right?

It is.

And it happens to us on a daily basis.

I can relate.

I

Peter Kourounis: can relate.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

I mean it, and then you like,
okay, well, what color, how

big, what, where are my photos?

Or, and that's two, go ahead.

Two

Peter Kourounis: key words for you there.

Mike required fields.

right.

Well, yeah, I mean, I've, that's gonna

Michael Riley: solve the problem.

I've seen shops that are two, $2
million plus at revenue and the

design request process is the sales
rep just forwards the email string

from their client to the designer.

Oh, it's awful.

Oh, it's awful.

like how the hell designer supposed
to figure out what to do with that?

I mean, you want your designers to
sit there for 45 minutes and read

through an email thread to figure
out what this customer wants.

That's insane, but that's
standard operating procedure for

a shocking number of sign shops.

And that's such bad business, it's it?

It makes me cry.

I lose sleep for forget at night.

yeah,

Bryant Gillespie: don't make sense.

Money cry.

Don't make a promise.

Yeah.

Peter Kourounis: Don't make
money cry as a salesperson.

If you're listening out there, be
diligent with your notes to your design

team, make sure that you're giving
them all of those results because

it's gonna make their lives easier.

And truthfully it'll make your life
easier as well because you won't

have the constant back and forth.

If you take the time out initially
to give those instructions to

your

Michael Riley: design team.

Totally.

There's a, so I just, for my sign design
business, I just started using a new

web-based app to, to manage my jobs.

it's called many requests and we'll
put a link to that, online as well.

This app was created for.

Companies that are in the graphic
design business that basically sell, a

monthly subscription and they give you
unlimited designs thinking like design

pickle, or many pixels type businesses.

I started using it and I, and I
recognized that this could easily be

adapted as an internal tool communication
tool between sales departments and

design departments where your sales
team can create requests in it.

It'll submit it.

And then your design team basically
has a job ticket that's automatically

created in a running job queue, a tool,
whether it's that tool or something else.

I mean, some sort of a job management
tool specifically for the design process,

is really critical to streamline that,
that, that communication, like you

said, required fields, like having
a form that says, okay, for channel

letter signs, what depth is the return?

Are they, what, what color are the faces?

Is it Raceway monitor?

Is it remote manager and all those
questions that might take a sales

rep 10 or 15 minutes to fill out.

We'll save hours of back
and forth in messed up jobs.

And reproves on the back end.

if you can just get them to fill
it out correctly, the first time, I

think that's a huge area that shops
fall short on that really need to

focus on and address that more.

Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna
come to the defense of the sales

reps that may be listening here.

I agree that it is garbage in garbage
out, but I also believe that in, in this

spirit of good communication, if you're
not getting the information that you

need on the design side, like you gotta
communicate that back to me as well.

And it like, give me the, what I need
to effectively get you that information.

Let's say, like getting
you proper artwork.

We know that is a huge issue for
just about every side shop getting

artwork that you can actually use
in production from a customer.

Crapshoot.

Totally.

and more oftentimes than not whoever's
taking that order or selling that job may

is coming across some of that artwork.

And as a sales rep, I'm, I may or may
not be a graphic designer, but, yeah,

I'm not gonna have that same skill
set or that experience that a designer

would and how to interpret these files
or, Hey, is this good or is it bad?

So,

Michael Riley: yeah, I agree on that
a hundred percent and I feel like

that's top, that's like a rabbit hole.

We could go down for hours or at
least I could go down for hours here,

but yeah, totally like education and
communication go hand in hand and yes,

you can't communicate what you don't know.

You need to communicate.

I think that's a really
super important point there.

So training and education and, cross
training to some degree from department

to department is really important.

So that yeah, your designer
or your sales rep knows.

The right questions to ask and the right
things to, get from the client before

they even hand it off to design in the
design team, conversely needs to make

sure that the sales team is educated
and can speak intelligently about those

things that will eliminate a lot of the
friction between those two departments.

Just putting them on
the same page like that.

That's a really good point, Brent.

Bryant Gillespie: Thank you.

Michael Riley: I think

Bryant Gillespie: you're this the
first compliment I've got this

Peter Kourounis: is episode.

That'll be the one and only compliment
the one and only that you'll get today.

Bryant Gillespie: All right.

So, the next question I've got for you,
Mike, is how does the structure of the

business factor into this handoff issue?

As far as like the way that the
organization and the roles are structured,

not necessarily Hey, is this a LLC or an
escort, but I like the organization chart.

Michael Riley: I think, no matter how
large or small your shop is assuming you

have an employee beyond just yourself.

I think it's important
to structure something.

the larger, the company, more than
likely the more departments there are

gonna be the more department heads.

and the more disconnect the pages
that there are, that need to

all be brought together to one.

so I think the larger the company and
the more granular the organizational

breakdown, the more important this
is first and foremost, it's the

more critical it is to herd all
these cats onto the same page.

and I think the larger the
company, the more important it is

to probably have that manager's.

Puddle first, every morning, so that all
department heads are on the same page and

then they can distill that information
down to their individual departments.

I think that's really critical if you
have, even if you're not huge, but

you say you have three departments in
house, say sales, design production,

let's say four, an installation.

And even if you only have, 10
employees total, there's probably

one person that takes ownership
of each one of those departments.

and most shops, there's a, a production
lead and there's a design lead

and there's a installation lead.

Even if they're not a, a true department
manager, even in a scenario like that.

I think it's really important that those
leads, at least huddle up and communicate

and bring themselves onto the same page.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, well it, Hey,
this has of come up in one of our

conversations in our mastermind calls.

I want to throw like a specific example
at you of, Hey, like sales is not

getting enough information and design
is saying, Hey, it's sales is saying,

Hey, I gave you everything you need.

Neither one of them want to take ownership
and communicate with the customers.

Yeah.

Is this like a handoff problem
or a structured problem?

Like, how does this, how do we

Michael Riley: solve this?

I don't think that's a structural problem.

And I ultimately, yeah, that's a handoff
problem, but I think there's probably

another layer of problem in there on
top of it just being a handoff problem.

There it, a handoff problem implies
that you've got the systems in

place to, to make a smooth handoff
and somebody's not doing their

job on one side of the equation.

and in a case like that, if there's
probably not really much of a process

for the handoff in the first place,
and there's probably not much, like

we talked about cross education
between those two departments.

and it's just like a wild west scenario
where there is no real laws or rules,

like the design department's gonna
do whatever the hell they want.

And the sales department is
gonna do whatever the hell they

want and, screw each other.

If those two things don't align
and know they're gonna clash.

I mean, that's just how it works.

so that's, I think that's more a
lack of just higher level structure,

or rules in place, and education.

So I think in a scenario like
that the, those two departments

need to train each other.

The design department needs to train
the sales department on what they

need and what their job entails.

a lot of sales people, or a
lot of non designers are not

really necessarily sales.

I shouldn't say single sales
people out, but just a lot of

people don't know what goes into.

The design side of things.

They think you just slap
a logo on a picture of a

building and there's your sign.

There's a lot more to
think through than that.

Bryant Gillespie: Just moving
pixels around on screen, man.

Right.

And how hard is it?

Michael Riley: Totally.

Exactly.

and really like the sales department,
what they're doing is driving the

overall scope of the job and the look
and feel, the customer wants a sign

that looks like this, and they want
it installed here in the building.

Right.

But a lot of the details are left up
to the design department to fill in,

above and beyond, very high level
stuff like colors and sizes and

maybe basic material or construction.

there's a lot of details the
design department has to fill

in and make educated guesses on.

So design teaching sales, really
what goes into creating that proof

and using real world examples.

Like they should, take an actual design
request they got and say, okay, let's

dissect this and figure out, for me
to complete this and do a good job and

create a drawing, that's going to be.

A sellable presentation for
you in the sales department.

This is what I need, and
this is what I go through.

And then the flip side of that
is sales is really hard too.

And there's a lot that goes into
it that people don't realize.

And don't understand.

I feel like I've been picking
on sales people a lot.

and I, I don't mean to salespeople
are, the engine that drives a sign

company without salespeople, the
same, company's gonna wither and die.

Oh yeah.

But they're just a different breed.

It's a different personality entirely.

So sales, educating design on what they
do in their process, is really important

too, so that the designers at least are
empathetic to what sales is going through

and how hard it can be sometimes to get a
vector logo from a customer or, the prove

pan own color and designers, tend to have
a bit of a, I dunno what the word is.

I should use here crusty.

They can, we could be crusty.

we can be primadonnas.

Sometimes and designers need
to meet the sales team halfway.

And I've seen so many designers that say,
I will not design this for you, unless you

get me a clean vector logo and PMs colors.

And that's not always possible.

And designers don't necessarily get
that, I mean, so they need to be able to

recognize that sales is hard sales reps go
through hell and back to, to get that job.

And sometimes they just can't get
all the answers and there's gotta

be some collaboration between those
two in some way where they can both.

I think that's the

Bryant Gillespie: biggest thing, right?

This is just being open and
collaborating instead of ah, Hey,

like they're not giving me what I need

Michael Riley: or so I'm
just not gonna do it, right.

Yeah,

Bryant Gillespie: yeah.

or Hey, this is, this one's fuzzy.

So I'm gonna do this other job.

That's I've got the details for right.

Michael Riley: It's right.

so it just.

I think being sympathetic to both
of those respected departments

and what they go through and
understanding, their walk in this

industry, I think is really important.

And that's true of any department.

That's not just sales design.

I mean, the same can be set of design to
production and production to installation.

I mean, these are all very unique,
specific disciplines that, and the

people that are doing them are gonna
have their own unique personalities.

And it's always oil and water.

I mean, they never perfectly mesh.

so, like we said, just creating
that environment or that, that

culture where there is two way
collaboration and communication

and empathy for those departments.

Yeah.

We'll go.

I like the,

Bryant Gillespie: I, I like the
idea of forced job shadowing or

Hey, you do somebody else's role
for one day or a week or something.

And, especially like new employees
or if you hire a new sales rep, Pair

them up with the designers for a week
or the production guys for a week.

Yeah.

and just have them do actual
production work, I think that was,

Michael Riley: or at least, I mean,
sometimes you can't put a sales rep

and if you're, fabricating big monument
sign, like here's a welder yeah.

Bryant Gillespie: Right.

That's true.

but, if you're the the
smaller vinyl side shop,

Michael Riley: right, right.

Yeah.

That's a little more realistic, but
either whether, whether they're actually

hands on helping or whether they're
just standing there and observing and

taking notes, visually seeing something,
experiencing it firsthand, whether you're

doing it or whether you're watching an
expert, do it goes a long, towards, I keep

using the word empathy and I don't know.

I feel like that's the best
word I can come up with.

just understanding what it
takes to build that sign.

yeah.

I think empathy is a good word for.

Yeah.

I mean, I've, there's so many sales reps
that don't know what it takes to build

a sign or so many designers that don't
know what it takes to build a sign.

And there's so many fabricators that
don't have any idea what it takes to

sell that sign that they're building.

So that goes a long way towards putting
everybody on the same page and just

reminding them that at the end of the
day, we're all on the same team, even

though we're separate departments.

And I feel like we're in way
competing with each other at rivals,

we are all on the same page, we're
on the same team and we're all

working towards the same end goal.

And we're all just part of
that process to get there.

and realigning based on that,

Bryant Gillespie: let's jump into some
more like tactical recommendations.

Hey, if we're dropping the ball on this,
what are some of the things that we can

look at and start doing to sort it out.

Michael Riley: Well, I think first
and foremost would be, to me, it

would be interviewing your staff and
finding out what their frustrations

are, what they perceive as, what's
causing communication breakdowns,

or what's causing these difficulties
in their, their particular role.

having the knowledge and understanding
information and what your employees go

through, I think is first and foremost.

Cause if you don't understand what
their complaints or concerns or

frustrations are you really can't
just take a stab in the dark at that.

You're not gonna be able
to address it very well.

So, and that's not really a, I mean,
that's just taking 'em out to lunch

and having a conversation with 'em,
whether it's one-on-one or whether

it's, in an entire department.

Yeah.

I'm a huge fan of one on ones.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, absolutely.

Michael Riley: Yeah.

It might have, I mean, if you have 60
employees that might not be realistic

to, to do that with everybody.

That's true.

Correct.

Right.

But you, I mean, I think you could,
I, I think you could definitely

take that entire department, take
your entire production department

out for pizza and beer, and just,
and encourage them to speak openly.

And honestly, and as you as an owner of
the person in, tasked with resolving this

problem, like you've gotta be ready and
willing to hear their criticism, openly

and not criticize back and point fingers.

And, and that's,

Bryant Gillespie: that's a
challenge in and of itself.

Sometimes

Michael Riley: that's real hard.

and I, honestly, I would say that
if you really wanna get down to the

meat potatoes of why communications
breakdown, communication, breakdowns

happen is because the powers that be are
closed off to hearing that criticism.

And they're not willing to, to
look introspectively on, on why

it's happening, but starting there
documenting what's happening, why it's

happening, interviewing your staff
is, has gotta be the starting point.

and I, I think throughout those
conversations, once you've talked to

everybody in your shop, I think the.

Maybe not the solution, but the
path forward the road you need

to take is going to float to the
surface and present itself to you.

and then from there you just need
to start implementing whatever tools

and systems and processes that,
apply to your particular scenario.

Bryant Gillespie: Yeah, absolutely SOPs
and checklists and things like that.

Come up a lot in our Facebook group
where we talked to all these owners.

so I absolutely think you've got to, once
you've identified those problems, you

gotta dive into that side of things and
start saying, okay, here's the way that

we get files from customers or here's
the way that we document that handoff.

Okay.

You're the sales rep.

Here's everything that you
need to enter a job properly.

And there has to be accountability
on the other side of it as well.

So, whether that's you as the owner,
that's providing that accountability

or there's the sales manager or
an operations manager, like it.

There has to be somebody who is reviewing
that and paying attention to it.

Because one of the things that I've
seen a hundred times, and you've seen

this at shop box as well, is like
the owners will implement a process.

Things go well for two weeks, they step
back and do something else and then come

back 12 weeks later or a month later.

And Hey, we're no longer
following that process.

because something happened,
somebody, it wasn't communicating

somebody called in audible to, to
get back to our football analogy.

and then that became the
default play from there on out.

Michael Riley: Right.

I think regardless of the topic, if
you're implementing systems and processes

and SOPs, that's a continuous process.

You can't just do it once and walk away
from it and expect it's gonna, hold up.

You've gotta, it's something that you've
gotta constantly reinforce and, Refine

and fine tune and keep on everybody's,
at the front of everybody's mind.

it's impossible to implement systems
and processes and then just walk

away and hope that they stick.

It just doesn't work that way.

especially in this industry where
everything is, everything is rush

driven, everything is deadline driven.

Everything is custom and has to pass
through multiple hands in departments.

And there's a lot of waste and errors
and mistakes and other human factors

that play into how quickly something
goes from point a to point B in a shop.

and that's where, when those things
happen, that's where the system is

in processes break down, because
now you're behind the eight ball and

you've gotta reprint something and
shit, let's just get it done really

quickly and skirt the system so that
we can get it in the customer's hands

Bryant Gillespie: hundred,
hundred, hundred percent.

Yeah, that was gonna be my next point.

before I died, there was, is that,
If you, if everything is a rush job,

or if you haven't communicated the
right expectations to the client up

front, and like you're continually
just like the stress level is high.

The tensions are mounting in the shop.

like those handoffs are gonna
be stressful, even if you've

got great systems in place.

and a lot of shops that we talk to,
obviously don't, so that's where

the problems compound and grow.

And it really cause

Michael Riley: expensive mistakes.

Right.

that's a really good point too, is, we're
talking about internal communication here.

but there's also communication with
the customer and there's handoff with

the customer too, just like there is
from department to department in your

shop and that's the two are one are two
sides of the same coin, whether you're

communicating with the customer, you're
communicating with your production

manager or whatever, and having
those systems in processes in place.

Not only for when jobs go smoothly,
but also, when things go off the

rails, we'll make the communication
with the customer a lot easier and

smoother and just establishing realistic
expectations front for your customer.

And this goes back also to training sales,
whether it's the design team, training,

the sales on what they need, or the
production team or installation team.

if sales, if your salesperson or
your sales team is a hundred percent

up to speed and on board with
what everybody else in the shop is

doing, they're going to be able to
communicate realistic expectations

to your customer on lead time.

And, there's material shortages
left and right right now, so, we're

gonna put this into production,
but there could be delays.

We, you need to expect that
there, we can't control when

we get this material in.

And if we're not able to get it to meet
your deadline, we'll figure out a plan

B, but you know, know this going into it,
that this might be an issue that arises.

Things like that, planting those
seeds in your customer's head at

the point of sale at the time of
sale will eliminate a lot of that

frustration on the customers end too.

And then having to follow up with
you constantly, but it all goes back

to internal communication so that
your salesperson or your project

manager or your customer service rep
is able to communicate effectively

with the client of the first place.

Bryant Gillespie: Absolutely.

Well said.

Well set.

All right, guys, let's bring
this one to a close, what's a,

the rapid fire takeaways today.

Peter

Peter Kourounis: use slack.

If your communication sucks.

Bryant Gillespie: I like that one.

I like that one short to the point Mike

Michael Riley: sign.

I like it.

lean on sign, bunny, sign money, lean
on tools and apps and integrations

to streamline, communication.

But don't forget.

Just face to face conversations and
meetings and go a long way towards getting

everybody on the same page and having an
op open environment for communication,

where communication and questions and
concerns are encouraged to be brought

to the surface is hugely important.

Bryant Gillespie: I'm gonna, I'm gonna go
on your side here, Mike, make the time and

space to work on the relationships with
your employees and between departments.

It's critical.

Absolutely critical.

Can't stress it enough.

You want good workflow?

I got it.

When you fix your
relationships inside the shop.

Peter Kourounis: all right, guys.

See you on the next soon.

Michael Riley: All right.

See you guys see you guys